Damn bro, that's some hardcore stuff. I know it's not easy to get rid of a bad addiction. I feel the same whenever I travel as I can get pretty crazy with drinks and as a result, got really drunk a few times and even a couple of times, really sick to the point of being in bed for the whole day for a day or 2. I gotta control my drinkings whenever I go to another country/city. When I'm at home, I don't drink at all. I'm toying with the idea of totally stop drinking as it can cause havoc at times. I wish you all the best man.
My Personal Journey to Becoming a Moderate Social Drinker
Damn dude - this thread really hit home for me. I struggled badly with alcohol through most of my drinking history, and although I didn't have your extreme violent streaks, I can certainly relate to the self-destructive aspects of being on the sauce.
I posted a bit about how I got my shit together in my intro thread. Feel free to PM me if you're curious about what I went through for treatment or have any questions. I still continue to drink a bit too much, but my existence is completely different than it was back in 2011 when I was literally drinking myself to death.
I know this shit is tough, but you've already taken a huge first step by admitting that you have some issues with booze and things need to change - most people don't have the balls to be honest with themselves in that regard. You've gotten yourself a moderation resource, put together a plan, and you seem damn motivated to make this work. You've also added some public accountability by creating a thread with your progress. That will go a long way.
I'm really rooting for you to get where you want to be.
Best of luck,
CIS
I posted a bit about how I got my shit together in my intro thread. Feel free to PM me if you're curious about what I went through for treatment or have any questions. I still continue to drink a bit too much, but my existence is completely different than it was back in 2011 when I was literally drinking myself to death.
I know this shit is tough, but you've already taken a huge first step by admitting that you have some issues with booze and things need to change - most people don't have the balls to be honest with themselves in that regard. You've gotten yourself a moderation resource, put together a plan, and you seem damn motivated to make this work. You've also added some public accountability by creating a thread with your progress. That will go a long way.
I'm really rooting for you to get where you want to be.
Best of luck,
CIS
Thanks for all the responses and support everyone. Just stopping by for a quick check in here. Everything is going just as planned so far with week 1, which is no surprise since it's such a simple part of the program. No problems or discomfort whatsoever.
To those who disapprove of or are concerned about the way I'm going about this, at first I wasn't planning to respond simply because I know anything I say in argument will be seen to someone with your perspective as my "alcoholic rationalization hamster" anyways - because that's the paradigm of someone coming from your point of view. But I am going to respond because I think it's an important part of this thread and why I've chosen to go this route. I just know these will be long posts, so I'll come back in here when I have the time.
For now, I'll just say that I have a big problem with the way the AA community and others that follow that line of thinking deal with "alcoholism" and honestly see real danger in the whole idea of adopting "I am an alcoholic" as your identity. We are not so powerless as that - I am not so powerless as that. I'll get more into this later, but feel free to watch Pen & Teller's "Bullshit episode on the subject, which touches on some of these issues in a lighthearted yet convincing manner. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU2YliYttnQ (warning - anything by penn & teller will be biased, but they are smart guys, and if you want a different view on the subject in an entertaining presentation, there it is)
Here's an interview of a harvard scholar that wrote a book about addiction being a choice rather than a disease : http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/26/addic...-a-choice/
Given the fact that I don't drink on a daily basis (nor need or want to), don't crave alcohol, and don't have any issues abstaining for a month to four months at a time, I personally believe the problem is that I've developed bad drinking habits and instead of monitoring my intake pretty much just go and go until I'm no longer using my frontal lobe and making smart decisions. There are deeper psychological issues at play here as well, obviously, and those come out when stop using my rational brain, but I'll get more into that later.
It's a very controversial point of view, but I'm very much of the opinion that all but the latest stages of addiction (i.e. physical) are a choice, not a disease. Up to this point, I've been making horrible choices. And given my overall background and the events of my life in recent years, it's not a huge surprise that I drifted back over to the dark side. For me, choosing to change my drinking habits is no different than taking on the immense challenge of changing other lifelong habits - with the added caveat that these bad habits present a particularly significant danger, which is I why I've chosen to address them.
Look, I know many other people - grew up around a lot of hard core bikers, for instance - who made just as horrible of choices, if not worse, for a long time and then "grew up" and began taking drugs less and drinking less - on their own accord. Not all chose to completely abstain; they just stopped getting wasted. In fact, many adults exhibit destructive behavior when young, some far more destructive than others, and then come to a point in their lives when they have a wake up call - for most it's because they settle down with a wife and children. Many address this not by cutting themselves off of booze for the rest of their lives but by partying less, hanging out with different people, and getting less drunk when they do party.
Sound familiar?
As a bachelor (maybe lifelong?), I have the added responsibility of making these decisions on my own rather than waiting for my behavior to affect people who depend on me, but it doesn't mean I can't come to that realization just the same.
In any event, if my thoughts on this subject prove to be flawed - as I'm sure you will believe they are - the very fact that I'm monitoring my progress publicly will no doubt force me to acknowledge your version of the situation at some point. Correct? So whether you look at this thread as my push to change my lifestyle or as the struggle of a helpless alcoholic doomed to failure, it is still therefore a huge step in the right direction.
Cheers everyone.
P.S.: So much for the brief version of my response - this ended up much longer than I expected.
To those who disapprove of or are concerned about the way I'm going about this, at first I wasn't planning to respond simply because I know anything I say in argument will be seen to someone with your perspective as my "alcoholic rationalization hamster" anyways - because that's the paradigm of someone coming from your point of view. But I am going to respond because I think it's an important part of this thread and why I've chosen to go this route. I just know these will be long posts, so I'll come back in here when I have the time.
For now, I'll just say that I have a big problem with the way the AA community and others that follow that line of thinking deal with "alcoholism" and honestly see real danger in the whole idea of adopting "I am an alcoholic" as your identity. We are not so powerless as that - I am not so powerless as that. I'll get more into this later, but feel free to watch Pen & Teller's "Bullshit episode on the subject, which touches on some of these issues in a lighthearted yet convincing manner. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU2YliYttnQ (warning - anything by penn & teller will be biased, but they are smart guys, and if you want a different view on the subject in an entertaining presentation, there it is)
Here's an interview of a harvard scholar that wrote a book about addiction being a choice rather than a disease : http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/26/addic...-a-choice/
Given the fact that I don't drink on a daily basis (nor need or want to), don't crave alcohol, and don't have any issues abstaining for a month to four months at a time, I personally believe the problem is that I've developed bad drinking habits and instead of monitoring my intake pretty much just go and go until I'm no longer using my frontal lobe and making smart decisions. There are deeper psychological issues at play here as well, obviously, and those come out when stop using my rational brain, but I'll get more into that later.
It's a very controversial point of view, but I'm very much of the opinion that all but the latest stages of addiction (i.e. physical) are a choice, not a disease. Up to this point, I've been making horrible choices. And given my overall background and the events of my life in recent years, it's not a huge surprise that I drifted back over to the dark side. For me, choosing to change my drinking habits is no different than taking on the immense challenge of changing other lifelong habits - with the added caveat that these bad habits present a particularly significant danger, which is I why I've chosen to address them.
Look, I know many other people - grew up around a lot of hard core bikers, for instance - who made just as horrible of choices, if not worse, for a long time and then "grew up" and began taking drugs less and drinking less - on their own accord. Not all chose to completely abstain; they just stopped getting wasted. In fact, many adults exhibit destructive behavior when young, some far more destructive than others, and then come to a point in their lives when they have a wake up call - for most it's because they settle down with a wife and children. Many address this not by cutting themselves off of booze for the rest of their lives but by partying less, hanging out with different people, and getting less drunk when they do party.
Sound familiar?
As a bachelor (maybe lifelong?), I have the added responsibility of making these decisions on my own rather than waiting for my behavior to affect people who depend on me, but it doesn't mean I can't come to that realization just the same.
In any event, if my thoughts on this subject prove to be flawed - as I'm sure you will believe they are - the very fact that I'm monitoring my progress publicly will no doubt force me to acknowledge your version of the situation at some point. Correct? So whether you look at this thread as my push to change my lifestyle or as the struggle of a helpless alcoholic doomed to failure, it is still therefore a huge step in the right direction.
Cheers everyone.
P.S.: So much for the brief version of my response - this ended up much longer than I expected.
Beyond All Seas
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling
Hi Beyond Borders,
I stopped Drinking Alkol completely since 1,5 Years and I might be able to help you with your journey. And, before that I switched four years between drinking and not drinking it.
1. To be honest what the fuck is a Social Drinker? you Drink or you don't Drink. There is no in between if you take it seriously.
So in your case I would change my Goal to not drinking at all since going from a Social drinker, to a heavy drinker is a fine Line and quite easy to cross.
2. I would try to find an alternative, most of the time I drink, Water, or orange Juices when I am out I actually save money and Time doing that and don't go out to get drunk at the Bar, but to Game Girls and have fun and rock the Dancefloor
3. If you go out Solo, and somebody asks why you don't drink just tell them you don't need and that you are kind of sick of the hangovers on the next day.
4. Learn to Game sober it is going to be harder at First since you will take more time to Warm up, but if you do it you actually have more energy true out the night.
5. Use your new found Focuss and Energy Wisely to make more Money and Fuck more Bitches![[Image: banana.gif]](https://rooshvforum.network/images/smilies/new/banana.gif)
That's what I implemented and use in my Life.( I am working on the more Bitches Part![[Image: smile.gif]](https://rooshvforum.network/images/smilies/smile.gif)
.
..Here is a Link to an Free Tour Speech from Tyler durden aka Owen from RSD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxhL4q2P4dY
just google Free Tour, or click the link and you cane watch the Video since he talks exactly about that topic.
You don't need the speech if you implement the steps I have outlined, but it might help you understand the Topic more and how it relates to Game.
I stopped Drinking Alkol completely since 1,5 Years and I might be able to help you with your journey. And, before that I switched four years between drinking and not drinking it.
1. To be honest what the fuck is a Social Drinker? you Drink or you don't Drink. There is no in between if you take it seriously.
So in your case I would change my Goal to not drinking at all since going from a Social drinker, to a heavy drinker is a fine Line and quite easy to cross.
2. I would try to find an alternative, most of the time I drink, Water, or orange Juices when I am out I actually save money and Time doing that and don't go out to get drunk at the Bar, but to Game Girls and have fun and rock the Dancefloor
3. If you go out Solo, and somebody asks why you don't drink just tell them you don't need and that you are kind of sick of the hangovers on the next day.
4. Learn to Game sober it is going to be harder at First since you will take more time to Warm up, but if you do it you actually have more energy true out the night.
5. Use your new found Focuss and Energy Wisely to make more Money and Fuck more Bitches
That's what I implemented and use in my Life.( I am working on the more Bitches Part
...Here is a Link to an Free Tour Speech from Tyler durden aka Owen from RSD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxhL4q2P4dY
just google Free Tour, or click the link and you cane watch the Video since he talks exactly about that topic.
You don't need the speech if you implement the steps I have outlined, but it might help you understand the Topic more and how it relates to Game.
why is it so important to you to drink? that is the real question
people who suffer all the negative consequences that you have identify the problem and stop doing it.
people who have a real problem find very intricate ways of rationalizing continued behaviors consequences be damned
i am almost four years sober. i dont go to AA. i used to and it was helpful in the beginning but I dont need it long term.
is my life better for not drinking? yep.
is it worth drinking to have all the risks of the consequences you outlined? nope
people who suffer all the negative consequences that you have identify the problem and stop doing it.
people who have a real problem find very intricate ways of rationalizing continued behaviors consequences be damned
i am almost four years sober. i dont go to AA. i used to and it was helpful in the beginning but I dont need it long term.
is my life better for not drinking? yep.
is it worth drinking to have all the risks of the consequences you outlined? nope
Don't drink alcohol, but have a similar problem with caffeine. Coke and energy drinks have been like water, and my body over time has become dependent. Its a war, not a battle. I think many people fail to stop drink because they make it an either/or proposition, and I don't think the body works that way in most cases. Have to ween yourself off gradually. Give yourself props on just cutting back the smallest amounts of it at a time while your body gets used to the change of condition
Quote: (11-02-2012 08:53 AM)reaper23 Wrote:
why is it so important to you to drink? that is the real question
people who suffer all the negative consequences that you have identify the problem and stop doing it.
people who have a real problem find very intricate ways of rationalizing continued behaviors consequences be damned
i am almost four years sober. i dont go to AA. i used to and it was helpful in the beginning but I dont need it long term.
is my life better for not drinking? yep.
is it worth drinking to have all the risks of the consequences you outlined? nope
Thank you fore mentioning that reaper 23.
It's the same with smoking it does something positive fore people and that's why it is so addictive. You need to find out what that is and replace it with something more beneficial fore you're body.
Fore Example Smkoing Weed helped me Relaxe and Connect to other People ...Now Music, Swimming and Meditation Relaxes me and just having fun and providing Value connects me to other people so I don't need to Smoke Weed anymore since my need's are met true more healthy activities.
Interesting experience with controlled drinking the other night.
I went to this swanky bar with a buddy and ran into an aquaintance from high school. He's there with this absolutely stunning girl who is his current girlfriend (dude's always got a dime on his arm), and she's got her friend with her.
The hot girlfriend has it all - rad body with huge fake tits, beautiful face, sweet feminine personality (for an American party girl), and dressed to the 9's. I'd probably give her a higher rating if it wasn't for the exaggerated fake boobies and plastic look - I'm not into that, but she no doubt had sex appeal. No red-blooded man could deny it.
Her old man is so hammered he's nearly passing out against the wall but he's a local concert promoter so the bartenders aren't giving him any grief.
Anyways, the girl's friend is a real bitch. She's not fine at all, but because this is such a dry area, is on the local pussy pedestal. Way too thick for my tastes. Materialistic girl trying to cover up ugly with style and fashion. That type. But still far too-celebrated by ballers around here.
Near the end of the night, the hot one - that's with my friend - asks me to drink some shots with her (she's buying, of course, or I wouldn't hear of it).
As you know, I'm really restricting my drinking right now, so I say no thanks and offer no explanation.
The hilarious thing was that this drove her absolutely insane - in a good way. She tries to talk me into it, and I still refuse without an explanation. Her bitchy friend says, "How could you say no to THIS girl? She's gorgeous - any guy would want a shot with her."
I found this a pretty ridiculous statement because a) she had a bf that I knew and who was sitting right there, so even if I was that kind of chump guy who bowed to beauty, there would be no reason for it to affect me in this instance, and b) the bitchy girl who was bitching about my refusal to join said hottie in shots was the same exact girl I'd expect to cockblock if their had been an opportunity to pursue (i.e. if the circumstances were different).
I just sit back, smirking, and say, "I'm good."
Anyhow, bitch girl keeps being bitchy and then gets distracted (thank god) and the hot one is suddenly leaning over the bar telling me how no guy ever refuses her or says no to her and that it's driving her absolutely insane to hear it - that it always drives her insane to hear no. I tell her good luck with that and keep smiling and then make fun of her, mimicking her biting her nails in frustration.
(No wonder your old man is passed out against the wall is what I'm thinking.)
I tell her I'm driving, but it still makes her nuts and she keeps pushing. "Maybe next time," she insists. "For sure."
As an aside, we go outside after closing and they're leaving and the bitchy girl pretending to hate me pushes past me while I'm walking and steps right in front of me while I'm smoking a cigar and then tells me over her shoulder "Get your cigar smoke out of my face."
"Get your face out of my cigar smoke," I says.
She starts flipping out - did you hear what he said to me?! lol This girl was a real train wreck of a bitch and was really making me want to head back to Asia at this point. Extreme version of American bullshit. Hottie and her boyfriend set her straight and then, get this, the bitchy girl for some reason decides to show me her tits.
They were quite nice, actually. "Yes, those are nice tits," I say, puffing on my cigar, unaffected. The look on her face that I responded so nonchalantly was fucking priceless.
She then tells her hot friend that she doesn't like me, trying to get her on the bandwagon. Hot friend defends me and tells her how she thinks I"m really cool, etc.
Bitchy girl flips me off as she's leaving (keep in mind that I've done nothing but be smooth, calm, collected to her bullshit all night - just in an unaffected manner that her attention whoring ass cannot not stand). She was also obviously attracted to me as well but not enough of an adult to know how to manage that - she'd opened me as soon as soon as I walked in the door and introduced herself before her attitude got the better of her (I think there are some typical jealousy issues there when around her far sexier friend too).
Anyhow, while ugly bitch girl is flipping me off, hot girl waves and says she hopes to see me again. Too bad she's with someone I know and hangs with drama queens or I'm sure I could have wrecked it or at least been well on my way.
And all I had to do to drive her nuts was turn down some shots. Funny.
P.S. Update on this thread coming soon - got some writing to do.
I went to this swanky bar with a buddy and ran into an aquaintance from high school. He's there with this absolutely stunning girl who is his current girlfriend (dude's always got a dime on his arm), and she's got her friend with her.
The hot girlfriend has it all - rad body with huge fake tits, beautiful face, sweet feminine personality (for an American party girl), and dressed to the 9's. I'd probably give her a higher rating if it wasn't for the exaggerated fake boobies and plastic look - I'm not into that, but she no doubt had sex appeal. No red-blooded man could deny it.
Her old man is so hammered he's nearly passing out against the wall but he's a local concert promoter so the bartenders aren't giving him any grief.
Anyways, the girl's friend is a real bitch. She's not fine at all, but because this is such a dry area, is on the local pussy pedestal. Way too thick for my tastes. Materialistic girl trying to cover up ugly with style and fashion. That type. But still far too-celebrated by ballers around here.
Near the end of the night, the hot one - that's with my friend - asks me to drink some shots with her (she's buying, of course, or I wouldn't hear of it).
As you know, I'm really restricting my drinking right now, so I say no thanks and offer no explanation.
The hilarious thing was that this drove her absolutely insane - in a good way. She tries to talk me into it, and I still refuse without an explanation. Her bitchy friend says, "How could you say no to THIS girl? She's gorgeous - any guy would want a shot with her."
I found this a pretty ridiculous statement because a) she had a bf that I knew and who was sitting right there, so even if I was that kind of chump guy who bowed to beauty, there would be no reason for it to affect me in this instance, and b) the bitchy girl who was bitching about my refusal to join said hottie in shots was the same exact girl I'd expect to cockblock if their had been an opportunity to pursue (i.e. if the circumstances were different).
I just sit back, smirking, and say, "I'm good."
Anyhow, bitch girl keeps being bitchy and then gets distracted (thank god) and the hot one is suddenly leaning over the bar telling me how no guy ever refuses her or says no to her and that it's driving her absolutely insane to hear it - that it always drives her insane to hear no. I tell her good luck with that and keep smiling and then make fun of her, mimicking her biting her nails in frustration.
(No wonder your old man is passed out against the wall is what I'm thinking.)
I tell her I'm driving, but it still makes her nuts and she keeps pushing. "Maybe next time," she insists. "For sure."
As an aside, we go outside after closing and they're leaving and the bitchy girl pretending to hate me pushes past me while I'm walking and steps right in front of me while I'm smoking a cigar and then tells me over her shoulder "Get your cigar smoke out of my face."
"Get your face out of my cigar smoke," I says.
She starts flipping out - did you hear what he said to me?! lol This girl was a real train wreck of a bitch and was really making me want to head back to Asia at this point. Extreme version of American bullshit. Hottie and her boyfriend set her straight and then, get this, the bitchy girl for some reason decides to show me her tits.
They were quite nice, actually. "Yes, those are nice tits," I say, puffing on my cigar, unaffected. The look on her face that I responded so nonchalantly was fucking priceless.
She then tells her hot friend that she doesn't like me, trying to get her on the bandwagon. Hot friend defends me and tells her how she thinks I"m really cool, etc.
Bitchy girl flips me off as she's leaving (keep in mind that I've done nothing but be smooth, calm, collected to her bullshit all night - just in an unaffected manner that her attention whoring ass cannot not stand). She was also obviously attracted to me as well but not enough of an adult to know how to manage that - she'd opened me as soon as soon as I walked in the door and introduced herself before her attitude got the better of her (I think there are some typical jealousy issues there when around her far sexier friend too).
Anyhow, while ugly bitch girl is flipping me off, hot girl waves and says she hopes to see me again. Too bad she's with someone I know and hangs with drama queens or I'm sure I could have wrecked it or at least been well on my way.
And all I had to do to drive her nuts was turn down some shots. Funny.
P.S. Update on this thread coming soon - got some writing to do.
Beyond All Seas
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling
Respeckt for actualy doing it Beyond Border's,
Most people would just give up on there own values just to impress a Girl you sayed no thanK's hope you banged her![[Image: icon_razz.gif]](https://rooshvforum.network/images/smilies/new/icon_razz.gif)
Funny how the other girl defended you in my case it's mostly the Guy's who don't know me asking me to drink Girls always tell me how cool it is since I don't give a fuck and enjoy myself drunk ore now sobber.
You do it fore you'reself no one realy cares if you drink or not so great doing what you believe is right for you.
Wish You succes with you're Journey
Peace Sef Paid
Most people would just give up on there own values just to impress a Girl you sayed no thanK's hope you banged her
Funny how the other girl defended you in my case it's mostly the Guy's who don't know me asking me to drink Girls always tell me how cool it is since I don't give a fuck and enjoy myself drunk ore now sobber.
You do it fore you'reself no one realy cares if you drink or not so great doing what you believe is right for you.
Wish You succes with you're Journey
Peace Sef Paid
Quote: (10-29-2012 09:46 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:
4) I don't want to be that guy that never drinks and can't manage drinking -
My guess would be you probably are that guy who can't drink without disaster coming, because of your inherited neurochemistry.
What you want has nothing to do with it.
Sounds like getting thrown in jail might be good luck for you , before you kill somebody and and end up with 10 years to debate the wisdom of your stubbornness.
Better luck might be facing that you can't handle alcohol and stopping drinking.
Quote: (11-07-2012 12:20 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:
Quote: (10-29-2012 09:46 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:
4) I don't want to be that guy that never drinks and can't manage drinking -
My guess would be you probably are that guy who can't drink without disaster coming, because of your inherited neurochemistry.
What you want has nothing to do with it.
Sounds like getting thrown in jail might be good luck for you , before you kill somebody and and end up with 10 years to debate the wisdom of your stubbornness.
Better luck might be facing that you can't handle alcohol and stopping drinking.
I drink like a fish and nothing happens to me. Why be so down iknowexactly?
I'm going to start drinking more. It's fun and it helps girls get naked.
Quote: (11-07-2012 04:35 PM)Giovonny Wrote:
I'm going to start drinking more. It's fun and it helps girls get naked.
I drank two bottles of rum yesterday. And lots of beer, and still managed to have sex. The dirty kind of sex that ended up with my finger in her ass, and got backhanded in the face when she was riding me. That would not have happened sober. I fucking hate sobriety. Stay thirsty my friends.
I cut my drinking from 7 days a week to three because I have my kid four days. I realize that I was on autopilot for 20 years now because I think clearer now. If I was making the right decisions when I was making tons of cash I would be a millionaire right now. My real estate moves of not selling high were the stupidest things I've ever done but I liked to drink on my land and blow shit up. That's why I didn't sell. Also my house is on 41/2 lots I was offered 100k each for but again didn't sell because I like to walk to bars and have fires in my front yard.
My best friend recently quit drinking and doing drugs.
He says.. sober life = boring life.
He says.. sober life = boring life.
Look, I’m going to answer those of you that are giving me shit in depth in this post, but after that, I’m really going to stop paying it much mind.
I really don’t get you guys - you remind me of some Jehovah's Witnesses sometimes. lol
This is the reason I didn’t want to bother arguing with people who believe in the whole AA-type thinking, which is basically that people who overdrink are alcoholics who have a disease, genetic disposition, etc. No matter what I say in response, you’re going to think and express that it’s me just rationalizing and addiction – because you have already been led to believe that’s what alcoholics do.
I’ll say more on this later, but like I said, this post will be my last time to address it because arguing this shit here is really nothing more than spinning wheels when you have that idea about me.
If you want to argue the points on abstinence vs. self-control, I encourage you to just start your own thread. This thread is a personal development thread to me. It’s meant to be a positive change in my life – not a place to have my methods harped on. If I was trying to lose weight or improve my game or make some other life change, you wouldn’t be coming in here being negative and shooting down my progress without even giving me a chance to start, so do me a favor and don’t do it here.
It only makes me not want to post in here or be honest about fuck-ups because I know there are a bunch of you sitting there doubting me and shaking your heads.
I realize what I’m doing violates your life view, but try to get a hold of yourselves. It’s almost like some of you want to see me fail just so you can be right…
I don’t currently have a workout program. I was going to begin with Starting Strength but my hand is a little too sore from the last escapade when I wrote that first post – I think barbell work would be a little much for it. Not to mention I just moved out of my place and have not got another yet, so I’m not sure what gym I’ll be going to until I settle in a little.
For those reasons, I think I’m going to get back with Convict Conditioning. Or just put together my own program with bodyweight exercises. I’d like to go the gym route just for additional social interaction – since I work online – but I travel so much that something like CC would be ideal.
I did get up and do some pushups this morning as a way to start breaking my cherry again.
Thanks for your well-rounded reply.
I definitely haven’t experienced any of the health problems that you did. I don’t feel a need to start drinking early in the day or afternoon, and I’ve never felt a craving for alcohol or got woozy because I wasn’t drinking.
If I started getting sick, I’d certainly stop. I know guys who drank holes in their stomachs and didn’t have a choice either. One of the reasons I’m cutting back is because I don’t want to face those helath problems someday.
Glad you’re doing better, Man.
Thanks for these videos. I did watch some of these and they were pretty eye-opening. This guy was an everyday 12-pack a day drinker, so certainly on a different level, and I’ve never suffered the physical effects he did when abstaining – nonetheless he’s an intelligent guy who offers some real insight on how our drinking habits can carry us away.
This is one of the hilarious arguments people who think alcoholics are diseased use that I take a real issue with. This is no argument at all.
Whether a person did have the power to stop drinking or didn’t have the power to stop drinking, they would say “I can stop drinking anytime I want.” So how in the world does it follow that anyone who says this is an alcoholic?
People also say they can get in shape whenever they want. Then they keep eating crap and never start working out. Does this mean they should completely restrict themselves from ever eating another spoonful of ice cream again in their lives, or that they should moderate their eating habits and get on a treadmill?
I know I can stop when I want because I do it once a year for a month just to remind myself what it’s like to live completely sober, to practice self-control (I also fast periodically), and to flush out my system, etc. It’s never even been an inkling of a problem to do this – and I usually frequent bars on my month off to socialize.
One year I did it for four months – again, just to practice self-control and for no other reason. It was a breeze. We went sky-diving for my birthday and had a blast.
My mother used to do a lot of coke and speed – she did so much coke she put a hole through her nostrils. One day she decided she didn’t want to do it anymore. So she stopped then and there without issue. Do you think anyone believed her before all those times she said she would just quite if she was ready?
She was a hard core cigarette smoker for years and always said she could quit if she wanted. What happened? One day she wanted to quit bad enough, so she did. Cold turkey.
She’s still a major alcoholic, at least on the weekends, and I worry about her. She tells me all the time that she could stop if she wanted.
Do I believe her?
You bet your ass I do.
She probably won’t anytime soon, but if she wanted to bad enough she could and would – and this is true for most alcoholics.
The thing is that people are weak (me included). We want things for our lives but we never pursue them. We try to stop bad habits but never follow through. This is true for everyone – whether they want to lose weight, stop eating shit, get stronger, improve their skills with women, or become good at surfing.
At the end of the day, we can all control our behavior if we want to. That includes people with drinking problems.
Why in the world would I do that if I can control myself through moderation and responsible drinking? You’re asking me to make a lifelong commitment to something I don’t yet believe I need to do.
What if some day I decide that decision was unnecessary? At this point, I’ve already accepted “I’m an alcoholic” as my identity. At that point there’s no ever going back because if I identify myself as an alcoholic, my subconscious will bring me to meet that expectation should I ever drink. To change my mind would be akin to giving in to alcohol.
If I start with moderation and then choose to completely quit if I fail, that is much more realistic. That’s a decision I can come back from.
As for practicing it by not hurting myself or other people, that’s what I’m doing here. That’s the point of my post.
Look, I understand what you’re doing here, but you’re attitude isn’t helping anything and is only going to put me on the defensive, which is not a productive state for life change. I never said I drink every night and I never said I get piss-drunk every time I drink. Nor do I beat people up every time.
There’s no lying to myself here; I’m being pretty honest about my behavior and trying to make a change.
You’re basically saying that instead of making a change that isn’t on your terms that I should just decide that’s who I am and go hurt other people and myself. Yeah, that makes sense…
Good point on the rounds. That’s a good way to think about it.
Thanks for the pm invitation. I may just do that.
Cheers
Yo, I’m really sorry about your friend, Man. It does sound like he had it pretty bad – I’ve never woken up in a strange city. I did have some blackout drunks in Thailand that were pretty scary though- more on this later.
I’ve had friends go a similar way and the ones that did were no surprise. May they rest in peace.
Thanks for the tip on the sativa – I actually rolled up a j the other night but it made me too paranoid when I was sober. I only do good with weed after a drink or two. That said, it’s a nice way to switch over to something when I’m ready to stop drinking – that’s what I did the other night and worked well.
That’s awesome, Man – good for you!
No, I don’t know that, and you certainly don’t know that about me. Look, I don’t want to argue with you not only for the reasons stated above but also because the last thing I want to do tell an alcoholic that quitting drinking is unnecessary.
But look around you – not everyone is like you.
“Research has produced evidence for decades that some alcoholics could return to moderate or controlled drinking. However, Alcoholics Anonymous and other influential and powerful groups have tended to define an alcoholic as a person who can never drink in moderation. Thus, their conceptions and definitions have caused them to reject this mounting evidence. For example, they tend to argue that if researchers identify alcoholics who can now drink in moderation, that simply means that the alcoholics were falsely diagnosed and really weren’t alcoholics or they wouldn’t have been able to drink in moderation.”
The problem with the type of thinking your post exemplifies is that it paints everyone with the same brush. We are not all the same, and all around you are people who have chosen a different path than you. It’s not only possible; it’s been done a thousand times before.
I know you think you’ve asked an eye-opening question here – further evidenced by the fact that you asked it twice here and again later when I delayed on responding – but you’re simply looking at it from a completely different paradigm than I am.
An erroneous one at that, in my honest opinion.
To me, this isn’t about doing all of this so I can keep drinking. It’s about trying to change the bad habit of drinking too much. To you it’s all or nothing – to me there are other options right in front of me.
If I go forward with a new workout program or try to change some other area of my life, guess what I do? I read. I practice self-discipline (which is a fantastic skill to hone, I might add). I keep a journal because it makes my progress clearer and keeps me on track.
In fact, I’ve thought of starting threads just like this one for getting myself in shape and for improving my game; I’ve chosen this one instead because it seems to be the one disrupting my life most. This isn’t a headache to me – it’s a proven method of breaking bad habits and adopting new ones. It’s a healthy, effective means of change.
But okay, I’ll bite.
Again, I feel bad about even saying this to an you as you state you are an alcoholic, but here are some reasons I’d like to drink in moderation rather than quit…
1) Alcohol is a huge part of our culture. The vast majority of Americans drink on a regular basis, and this is the default ice breaker for just about any social situation. It allows you get to know someone more in an hour or two than you otherwise would in weeks or even months. It allows you to seamlessly enter social situations. It allows you to bond with people quickly.
2) I travel a lot in new cities and in new countries. In other cultures, not drinking at all is akin to a huge handicap, and in many cultures, turning down a drink or an invitation to drink is an insult.
If I want to continue traveling as much as I do, quitting the drink completely is going to drastically alter my experiences in a way I’m not quite ready to accept, especially operating under the belief of it being unnecessary.
Still having the self-freedom to drop into a bar and have a beer allows me to instantly meet people in any of these countries at any time. I can meet other expats and foreigners alike. I can do that with other pastimes, but to do so in a matter of hours is usually only allowed over a cold glass of suds.
3) Studies show that people who completely abstain are not as happy as people who drink in moderation. Nor are they as healthy or wealthy. I personally attribute this to the ease of socialization since drinking is such a cultural norm.
4) Once again, you’re asking me to decide to never do something again FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE when I see it as unnecessary. That’s a huge decision to make and I don’t take it lightly; the fact that so many people who abstain end up falling off the wagon shows that most people do take it lightly.
If I don’t yet believe I have to do it, why would I make a lifelong decision before trying to change my behavior through less extreme means?
I know I can. Thanks for the vote of confidence, and tell it to a couple other of these guys, wouldya? If I can quit now, I can quit after trying this should it not work. Just like any problem drinker, I can always make a choice if I find the motivation.
I actually find the reverse to be true. Drunk people can be damn annoying when I’m completely sober. Good thing my temper cools.
Yeah, nothing like a 2-day hangover to fuck up your productivity. And it sure is easy to get carried away in a foreign place.
Thanks for the good wishes, my man.
Thanks a lot, Bro. I read your other thread, and it definitely sounded like you were in a dark place. Thanks for the support.
Hey SelfPaid – to be honest, I thought you were a troll based on some of your other posts about money and still haven’t made up my mind, but you did offer some good advice in this post, so thanks for that. I’ll check out the link.
As far as asking what a social drinker is, that seems to be a bit of a strange question. A social drinker is someone who drinks in moderation in social situations rather than going out and binge drinking on the weekends or drinking at home alone on the a daily basis.
Don’t play word games with me – I’m a writer.
And who told you there is no in between? That seems to be something you’ve heard rather than something you know from experience or from looking at the people around you.
I understand you’re only trying to help, but why did you feel you needed to come back in here and throw this question back at me again when in the reply just above I’d stated I was going to come answer you guys when I had the time. Please don’t treat me like a child.
As do all human beings for all types of behavior; this is not unique to alcoholics nor mean that abstinence is the only answer. Whether my rationalizations are genuine and correct or irrational and alcohol-fueled, you’re not going to give my thinking a chance, so why even bother?
In your mind, anything I say is a contrived rationalization. This is your paradigm, and I can’t have a reasonable discussion on those grounds.
This is what I meant by not being down with typical AA-thinking. I don’t care if you still go to AA or not; you still subscribe to their belief systems and the idea that abstinence is the only answer. You still think it’s a disease and that I’m not capable of rational thought about alcohol even when sober, which I find ludicrous.
And you’re still not open to outside opinions of the nature of alcoholism.
I’m not asking you to be because I wouldn’t want to affect your decisions in this way or turn this thread into a debate (again, feel free to do it in another thread), but understand that I’m trying to make some changes here. That’s a big step, so let me take it.
That’s great. But I believe I can minimize or remove those risks and consequences without abstaining completely.
You don’t, and that’s fine.
Thanks!
Wow, really? That's a hasty conclusion...
Let me make a few things clear about me for those who might have the wrong idea. It might not change anyone's mind, but as every situation is unique, here's mine.
First, I’m not a senseless thug, and I don’t victimize people. In a lot of ways I probably just come from a different world than you guys.
Let’s have a look, if you have the patience.
First off, my violence doesn’t come from alcohol, as another poster hinted above. That’s the only time it shows itself anymore, but it began far before that.
I come from a very violent background and local culture, for one. My father spent the majority of my childhood in prison and my mom used to have this boyfriend who used to beat himself in the face with one of those big maglights – even knocked himself out once. Pulled a knife on me another time; used to get in knife fights at the bar and one time my buddies saw him put one threw a guy’s neck.
Nothing ever came of it because no one ever talked. That’s the culture around here – it’s outlaw country. This place is the real wild west and it’s still alive and kicking.
I remember I beat up that crazy boyfriend of my mom’s up once because of the one single time he laid a hand on my mom and I hit him so hard he lost his balance for a month. I can still see him on his knees bleeding all over the place and pleading for me to stop.
I was 14 years old.
After that he made up a story that my older brother and I jumped him from behind. Suddenly there’s word that a bunch of his biker buddies are coming after us – probably a rumor, but we were kids and these guys were dangerous – we got scared so we reacted. We bought a sawed off shotgun and waited. We lived in the woods back then and the nearest cops were a half hour away.
Every noise outside had me on my feet grabbing a gun.
I was barely a teen – you see what I mean? Her time with this nutcase was the same time I was going through puberty, and I learned his style of violence as a result – it was the most impressionable period of my life. Can you imagine what that does to a person?
I was a crazy motherfucker all through high school and couldn’t go through a week without flipping out and bloodying my knuckles on some lockers or walls. Often it took multiple people to subdue me. Often, if there was no way of moving my limbs at this point, I’d just headbutt the ground. A ridiculous amount of destructive behavior.
I was severely depressed too. Many times I couldn’t go through the day without flipping for no apparent reason and then I’d hitchhike home and just sit there feeling like I was going crazy.
They told me I needed to take anti-depressants. They told me there was no way I could control it. That I was like my father and bound to be manic depressive and paranoid schizo.
You know what? I decided fuck that and that I didn’t need meds to straighten out my mind – just like I’m telling you now I can control myself. I decided I was strong enough and smart enough, so I sat down and made it happen. And I was better within a matter of weeks. So good that my therapist said I didn’t need therapy anymore.
My behavior when I’m sober has been mellow ever since with very few outbreaks – the only incidents have been when I’m drunk. People who’ve met me sober or never seen me go to the dark side think I’m the most mellow, friendliest dude you’d ever meet – those who knew me way back when wouldn’t have believed that would ever be possible.
I was doing very well for a long time and shit hit the fan for me. My father had since OD’d and died, but I made my peace with him. I’d worked my way up from real poverty and was making a name for myself, but shit hit the fan and I lot everything I owned and had built for myself.
Every single thing.
It was a hard blow but I kept pushing forward.
After a year, I had built a good deal of it back and was going to the university and getting straight A’s when I had a run-in with some real hard-core criminals. I’m not talking your run-of-the-mill corner-street gangster – I’m talking about one of the most dangerous criminal enterprises in our country if not the world (I’m not saying the name on a forum for a good reason). They made a mistake. I had fucked a girl who was involved, and somehow I got caught in their bullshit crossfire (players beware).
Next thing you know I’m hiding out with a pistol and sneaking out of town, losing everything I owned once again because I had to make a run for it. All over something that was none of my business with people I didn’t know.
A friend was supposed to send me money he owed me – that was the plan. Start a biz with it and move on with my life. Travel the world and have adventures. Instead he burnt me and left me hanging overseas. I ended up living for years in Thailand with no visa, running from the cops at times so as not to get caught – I couldn’t afford to get shipped back to America without even having the money to properly hide.
Imagine that for a second.
You’re broke and down to nothing in a foreign country. You don’t have a penny to your name besides what’s in your pocket. You have nowhere to go. And you don’t know if you’ll ever be able to contact your family again in your life. No support system - and living in Thailand, an amazing place but in many ways a cesspool of addiction and extreme behavior.
I hit rock-bottom, Man – is it any wonder? I didn’t have to, but I did. I was living in a bad movie.
Got suicidal and crashed bikes. Would wake up sometimes not remembering driving them home. When I slammed one particular hooker without a condum, I did so because I didn’t care anymore – I figured if I got the bug, aka HIV, I’d rent a crotch rocket and drive it a hundred miles per hour into the side of brick wall and call it a life lived at full speed.
At times I got depressed when drinking and stood on my balcony looking down. Just thinking about it. That was the dark side. I was living in a bad movie and wanted out – not seeing that all I had to do was change my behavior. But we get caught up in the emotions sometimes, you know what I mean?
To go further, imagine what growing up in that way and hiding for your life like that does to your psyche. How it makes you react to aggression…
If you ask anyone who knows me, I don’t look for fights nor do I ever start them. In fact, many who don't believe that assertion go with me to a public place and then sit there shaking their head when they see the way certain guys get aggressive towards me when I'm doing nothing to invite it - I just come across as a mark. The other night some guy I never met spit on the back of my head. I'd only been at the party for five minutes and was getting ready to shoot a game of pool. hadn't said a word to him.
Sure, I’ve slipped here and there and instigated something when I just took it the wrong way, but in the vast majority of cases, the people I fight are bullies or people known for starting problems. It certainly doesn’t mean I want to continue doing it, but nor am I running around fucking with people.
Given my history, if someone is in my face, my whole body goes into survival mode. I don’t “step outside.” I seek to put someone out of the fight and get myself out of danger. If someone is in within arm’s reach and showing aggression, I act.
On top of that, you’ve got this place I’m in right now. A place where 80% of the men, if not more, are outlaws who made shitloads of money on the only industry around here, which is growing pot. There is ZERO other industry around here – I shit you not.
If you’ve never experienced something like that, it’s hard to explain the vibe of these mountain boys with stacks of cash. They think they’re hard, even though the vast majority of them were babied by their grower parents and never had to fight for a thing in their lives. They become dangerous. They drink and do coke to crazy excess and think they’re on top of the world.
The county I’m in has a higher death by gunshot rate per capita than L.A County. Higher STD rate. Higher drug use. And that’s the whole county together; I think if they just counted south county, or the boondocks, where I’m from, that shit would be through the roof.
And the women issue here – fuck. I shit you not that any night you go out you’re talking 95% men in the bar or at the party – 95%! That’s a shitload of unspent testosterone.
Here’s my point. People fight around here. They get down. They have bad attitudes and think they’re unstoppable. They think they like to fight until they run into guys like me and my friends and learn something new.
In fact, when I go to other areas, I very, very rarely get in fights. In Asian countries, where people don’t start shit (only finish it like me), I don’t get in fights at all unless with other Westerners, and this with spending 99% of my time with the Asians.
I’m not saying my behavior isn't extreme. Especially by the standards of the domesticated world. What I am saying is that I’m not going out hurting innocent people.
One of the guys I put in the hospital, for instance, ripped my cell phone out of my hand, put it in his pocket and wouldn’t give it back. Earlier in the night I’d already slammed him on his head for getting physical with me and then after helping him up was giving him a ride home and he talked me into stopping for a beer to smooth it over. Someone called me and he took my phone. Wouldn’t give it back.
I’m going to hit you if you don’t give it back, I said, and he just sat there staring at me with a crazy look on his eyes – far too close for comfort. The first, single, punch knocked him down but he kept staring at me from his seat and wouldn’t give it back. I was in a state. It was almost daylight and I’d been drinking all night. It was dumb, and I should have left. Instead of leaving, I told him I was going to hurt him if he didn’t give it back. He still didn’t, so I hurt him.
I took it back and left him there. In actuality, I wanted to take him to the hospital, but I was more afraid of being caught by the cops without a visa.
This guy was a gangster and a menace; he’d been bragging to me all night about his affiliations and starting shit with everyone in the bar. I have a real problem with gangsters after that shit that happened to me. Did I go too far? Of course I did. Was he an innocent victim I cornered? Absolutely not.
Another guy I put in the hospital? This girl I knew was bartending and she cut him off. He smashed her in the mouth with his glass.
Real defenseless victim, this guy. Did I go overboard? Yep.
Another guy was messing with my brother, who has broken multiple vertabrae and isn't even supposed to play soft sports. You don't mess with my brother. Period. Did I go too far? yes.
Fighting’s a helluva drug, much like alcohol.
When you’re good at it, it starts being fun for you. You’ve got this aura about you when someone starts shit, and you really feel like nothing can happen to you. The alcohol really brings that shit out of you too.
That’s what I meant when I said I invite that stuff sometimes these days. I’m starting to realize that I’m getting to a point when drinking well beyond my BAC where if someone is acting like a dick or being aggressive around me, I no longer wait until I have to teach them a lesson.
Instead, I’m inviting it – if not with my words then with my eyes and body language.
Because at the end of the day, part of you learns to like it.
Not to mention that as you can tell by some of my stories, I don't leave situations that are obviously ripe for confrontation or get away from dangerous people (that's why I mentioned in the first post I needed to take that step too).
My point of my original post was that I don’t want to unload on every guy who fucks with me – I’m getting too old for this shit, and my drinking was getting out of hand. After my experiences, I think it’s completely understandable, but it’s time to get a hold of it because that part of my life is (mostly) over and I’d like to move on.
I don’t want the health problems. I don’t want jail. And I don’t want to hurt people if I don’t have to.
My best friend used to fight more than me and get himself in worst predicaments. He still drinks – usually more than me – but no longer fights. In fact, he’s usually the voice of rationalization when we go out; it used to be the other way around. Yet another example of someone who’s done what I’m doing.
I still think violence is sometimes the answer. I still like a beer with an old friend or my brother. I still like a glass of wine with dinner and the easy socialization of a night at the pub with strangers.
I think I’ve set myself some very reasonable standards in the initial post and have been pretty upfront about my demons. As I mentioned before, the fact that I’ve made this public will force me to acknowledge if it’s truly uncontrollable. So if you guys are right, I’ll eventually have no choice but to own up and phase it out completely.
Meanwhile, let me do my thing.
I really don’t get you guys - you remind me of some Jehovah's Witnesses sometimes. lol
This is the reason I didn’t want to bother arguing with people who believe in the whole AA-type thinking, which is basically that people who overdrink are alcoholics who have a disease, genetic disposition, etc. No matter what I say in response, you’re going to think and express that it’s me just rationalizing and addiction – because you have already been led to believe that’s what alcoholics do.
I’ll say more on this later, but like I said, this post will be my last time to address it because arguing this shit here is really nothing more than spinning wheels when you have that idea about me.
If you want to argue the points on abstinence vs. self-control, I encourage you to just start your own thread. This thread is a personal development thread to me. It’s meant to be a positive change in my life – not a place to have my methods harped on. If I was trying to lose weight or improve my game or make some other life change, you wouldn’t be coming in here being negative and shooting down my progress without even giving me a chance to start, so do me a favor and don’t do it here.
It only makes me not want to post in here or be honest about fuck-ups because I know there are a bunch of you sitting there doubting me and shaking your heads.
I realize what I’m doing violates your life view, but try to get a hold of yourselves. It’s almost like some of you want to see me fail just so you can be right…
Quote: (10-30-2012 05:02 AM)mistermister Wrote:
what's your workout regime like ? i used to have what in my mind i thought to be a drinking problem. downing a bottle of wine with dinner after work. once i got committed to strength training, the drinking stopped.
I don’t currently have a workout program. I was going to begin with Starting Strength but my hand is a little too sore from the last escapade when I wrote that first post – I think barbell work would be a little much for it. Not to mention I just moved out of my place and have not got another yet, so I’m not sure what gym I’ll be going to until I settle in a little.
For those reasons, I think I’m going to get back with Convict Conditioning. Or just put together my own program with bodyweight exercises. I’d like to go the gym route just for additional social interaction – since I work online – but I travel so much that something like CC would be ideal.
I did get up and do some pushups this morning as a way to start breaking my cherry again.
Quote: (10-30-2012 02:24 PM)xsplat Wrote:
I've been in a similar situation like you, and also had the same plan. I would take frequent drinking holidays, stopping for a week, a month, four months. But then I'd wind up on a binge again. I'd try to control my drinking by allowing a set amount after 7pm only. But then I'd declare some days a party day, and then I'd be on a long bender again.
It got pretty bad at times. Being weak in the knees in the morning if I hadn't had a drink. Then some stomach problems caught up with me, and my decision was made for me. I could no longer drink without feeling very sick.
It wasn't that difficult, once the switch was made. No more bars or nightclubs though, because for me that's associated with a specific flavor of fun, and that's the start of the slippery slope.
I heard you notice that you have strong will power - but just not after a certain number of drinks. Maybe we have alternate personalities that come out? I know I did, and for a while I missed my alternate. It's a little like murder to him, not drinking. Poor guy.
But after three years sober, I don't much miss him anymore.
Maybe really that's a big part of what not getting hammered is about - a kind of suicide pact with a part of ourselves we really appreciate and don't want to see go.
I'd have kept my inner drunk around if I could have. But he would have killed me.
I already had a few mini strokes and have heart disease and some serious cognitive deficits - especially memory problems now. And serious stomach problems. And my left eye is partially blind as a result of a mini stroke. All because of the year after year of "just one more". At the time I always think "well, why not". It's only when you get to the stage where you are that notice why. And then it can get worse, health wise. Sooner or later it's something - it's not sustainable.
But...
You are right that some people are able to make moderation work.
I gave it a serious effort for about two years, and didn't make much overall progress. The drinking holidays were pretty easy. I don't have any real insights about what would draw me back into heavy drinking - I suppose brain chemistry and addictions are involved.
Oh - that reminds me - I hear people use low dose naltrexone as a way that helps. I use that myself, to this day.
Anyway, none of this is meant as advice. Just thought I throw out my history, and let it be known what my solution was. It was to get too sick to be able to drink anymore at all. Worked for me.
Thanks for your well-rounded reply.
I definitely haven’t experienced any of the health problems that you did. I don’t feel a need to start drinking early in the day or afternoon, and I’ve never felt a craving for alcohol or got woozy because I wasn’t drinking.
If I started getting sick, I’d certainly stop. I know guys who drank holes in their stomachs and didn’t have a choice either. One of the reasons I’m cutting back is because I don’t want to face those helath problems someday.
Glad you’re doing better, Man.
Quote: (10-30-2012 09:56 PM)Farmageddon Wrote:
Something that really helped me curb my drinking was watching the videos that John Cheese from Cracked.com made about his decision to stop drinking. He had his 3 year anniversary today,
Thanks for these videos. I did watch some of these and they were pretty eye-opening. This guy was an everyday 12-pack a day drinker, so certainly on a different level, and I’ve never suffered the physical effects he did when abstaining – nonetheless he’s an intelligent guy who offers some real insight on how our drinking habits can carry us away.
Quote: (10-31-2012 02:52 AM)germanico Wrote:
That is the first lie alcoholics tell to themselves. "I can stop drinking anytime I want"
This is one of the hilarious arguments people who think alcoholics are diseased use that I take a real issue with. This is no argument at all.
Whether a person did have the power to stop drinking or didn’t have the power to stop drinking, they would say “I can stop drinking anytime I want.” So how in the world does it follow that anyone who says this is an alcoholic?
People also say they can get in shape whenever they want. Then they keep eating crap and never start working out. Does this mean they should completely restrict themselves from ever eating another spoonful of ice cream again in their lives, or that they should moderate their eating habits and get on a treadmill?
I know I can stop when I want because I do it once a year for a month just to remind myself what it’s like to live completely sober, to practice self-control (I also fast periodically), and to flush out my system, etc. It’s never even been an inkling of a problem to do this – and I usually frequent bars on my month off to socialize.
One year I did it for four months – again, just to practice self-control and for no other reason. It was a breeze. We went sky-diving for my birthday and had a blast.
My mother used to do a lot of coke and speed – she did so much coke she put a hole through her nostrils. One day she decided she didn’t want to do it anymore. So she stopped then and there without issue. Do you think anyone believed her before all those times she said she would just quite if she was ready?
She was a hard core cigarette smoker for years and always said she could quit if she wanted. What happened? One day she wanted to quit bad enough, so she did. Cold turkey.
She’s still a major alcoholic, at least on the weekends, and I worry about her. She tells me all the time that she could stop if she wanted.
Do I believe her?
You bet your ass I do.
She probably won’t anytime soon, but if she wanted to bad enough she could and would – and this is true for most alcoholics.
The thing is that people are weak (me included). We want things for our lives but we never pursue them. We try to stop bad habits but never follow through. This is true for everyone – whether they want to lose weight, stop eating shit, get stronger, improve their skills with women, or become good at surfing.
At the end of the day, we can all control our behavior if we want to. That includes people with drinking problems.
Quote: (10-31-2012 02:52 AM)germanico Wrote:
Well, I you have so much self control "when you choose to practice it", then choose to practice it by not drinking. Choose to practice it by not hurting yourself or other people.
Why in the world would I do that if I can control myself through moderation and responsible drinking? You’re asking me to make a lifelong commitment to something I don’t yet believe I need to do.
What if some day I decide that decision was unnecessary? At this point, I’ve already accepted “I’m an alcoholic” as my identity. At that point there’s no ever going back because if I identify myself as an alcoholic, my subconscious will bring me to meet that expectation should I ever drink. To change my mind would be akin to giving in to alcohol.
If I start with moderation and then choose to completely quit if I fail, that is much more realistic. That’s a decision I can come back from.
As for practicing it by not hurting myself or other people, that’s what I’m doing here. That’s the point of my post.
Quote: (10-31-2012 02:52 AM)germanico Wrote:
You also say that you dont need to stop drinking and that you dont want to be "that guy"... so, how has THAT been working out for you so far?
Do whatever you want man. If you want to get piss-drunk every night and beat people up everytime, then do so. Just dont lie to yourself.
Look, I understand what you’re doing here, but you’re attitude isn’t helping anything and is only going to put me on the defensive, which is not a productive state for life change. I never said I drink every night and I never said I get piss-drunk every time I drink. Nor do I beat people up every time.
There’s no lying to myself here; I’m being pretty honest about my behavior and trying to make a change.
You’re basically saying that instead of making a change that isn’t on your terms that I should just decide that’s who I am and go hurt other people and myself. Yeah, that makes sense…
Quote: (10-31-2012 03:22 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:
Don't buy rounds. That means you are drinking at the pace of the fastest person in the group. It's bad mojo. Buy your own at your pace.
If you have any questions or want to PM me let me know. We have a lot of similarities minus the extreme anger issues.
Good point on the rounds. That’s a good way to think about it.
Thanks for the pm invitation. I may just do that.
Cheers
Quote: (10-31-2012 03:50 AM)w00t Wrote:
Hey man one of my best friends was drinking ALOT. He wasnt getting into fights but he would get so drunk that he would lose his phones, fall all over the place and hurt himself, rip his clothes and whatnot. Sometimes he would wake up in another city and have no idea how he got there. He also banged alot of bitches but often times was so drunk he couldnt get it up anymore.
Well bottom line he died this year in a terrible accident and without alcohol he would still be alive. This was one of the smartest kids I know and he was in the process of starting a restaurant and making shitloads of cash.
So I hope you can find a way to get off the sauce. Alcohol is a terrible drug and brings nothing but trouble IMO. I havent stopped drinking but I never get drunk so I dont really have a problem with alcohol like that. Have you tried smoking some weed to chill out? If you puff some nice sativa it will not make you all lazy and unmotivated you can still go out and enjoy yourself and be social.
Yo, I’m really sorry about your friend, Man. It does sound like he had it pretty bad – I’ve never woken up in a strange city. I did have some blackout drunks in Thailand that were pretty scary though- more on this later.
I’ve had friends go a similar way and the ones that did were no surprise. May they rest in peace.
Thanks for the tip on the sativa – I actually rolled up a j the other night but it made me too paranoid when I was sober. I only do good with weed after a drink or two. That said, it’s a nice way to switch over to something when I’m ready to stop drinking – that’s what I did the other night and worked well.
Quote: (10-31-2012 10:45 AM)reaper23 Wrote:
almost four years here with not one drink.
took 20 years of lots of bullshit to get me to the point where it was time to quit.
That’s awesome, Man – good for you!
Quote: (10-31-2012 10:45 AM)reaper23 Wrote:
you already know that you can't drink in moderation for long periods of time.
No, I don’t know that, and you certainly don’t know that about me. Look, I don’t want to argue with you not only for the reasons stated above but also because the last thing I want to do tell an alcoholic that quitting drinking is unnecessary.
But look around you – not everyone is like you.
“Research has produced evidence for decades that some alcoholics could return to moderate or controlled drinking. However, Alcoholics Anonymous and other influential and powerful groups have tended to define an alcoholic as a person who can never drink in moderation. Thus, their conceptions and definitions have caused them to reject this mounting evidence. For example, they tend to argue that if researchers identify alcoholics who can now drink in moderation, that simply means that the alcoholics were falsely diagnosed and really weren’t alcoholics or they wouldn’t have been able to drink in moderation.”
The problem with the type of thinking your post exemplifies is that it paints everyone with the same brush. We are not all the same, and all around you are people who have chosen a different path than you. It’s not only possible; it’s been done a thousand times before.
Quote: (10-31-2012 10:45 AM)reaper23 Wrote:
just ask yourself what is so fucking important about having to drink that you'll through all this headache, discipline, journaling, reading, etc just
so you can keep on drinking... what is it?
you've had enough negative consequences
I know you think you’ve asked an eye-opening question here – further evidenced by the fact that you asked it twice here and again later when I delayed on responding – but you’re simply looking at it from a completely different paradigm than I am.
An erroneous one at that, in my honest opinion.
To me, this isn’t about doing all of this so I can keep drinking. It’s about trying to change the bad habit of drinking too much. To you it’s all or nothing – to me there are other options right in front of me.
If I go forward with a new workout program or try to change some other area of my life, guess what I do? I read. I practice self-discipline (which is a fantastic skill to hone, I might add). I keep a journal because it makes my progress clearer and keeps me on track.
In fact, I’ve thought of starting threads just like this one for getting myself in shape and for improving my game; I’ve chosen this one instead because it seems to be the one disrupting my life most. This isn’t a headache to me – it’s a proven method of breaking bad habits and adopting new ones. It’s a healthy, effective means of change.
Quote: (10-31-2012 10:45 AM)reaper23 Wrote:
why is it so important to drink...thats the question you can't answer without saying that you need it / love it / are addicted to it
But okay, I’ll bite.
Again, I feel bad about even saying this to an you as you state you are an alcoholic, but here are some reasons I’d like to drink in moderation rather than quit…
1) Alcohol is a huge part of our culture. The vast majority of Americans drink on a regular basis, and this is the default ice breaker for just about any social situation. It allows you get to know someone more in an hour or two than you otherwise would in weeks or even months. It allows you to seamlessly enter social situations. It allows you to bond with people quickly.
2) I travel a lot in new cities and in new countries. In other cultures, not drinking at all is akin to a huge handicap, and in many cultures, turning down a drink or an invitation to drink is an insult.
If I want to continue traveling as much as I do, quitting the drink completely is going to drastically alter my experiences in a way I’m not quite ready to accept, especially operating under the belief of it being unnecessary.
Still having the self-freedom to drop into a bar and have a beer allows me to instantly meet people in any of these countries at any time. I can meet other expats and foreigners alike. I can do that with other pastimes, but to do so in a matter of hours is usually only allowed over a cold glass of suds.
3) Studies show that people who completely abstain are not as happy as people who drink in moderation. Nor are they as healthy or wealthy. I personally attribute this to the ease of socialization since drinking is such a cultural norm.
4) Once again, you’re asking me to decide to never do something again FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE when I see it as unnecessary. That’s a huge decision to make and I don’t take it lightly; the fact that so many people who abstain end up falling off the wagon shows that most people do take it lightly.
If I don’t yet believe I have to do it, why would I make a lifelong decision before trying to change my behavior through less extreme means?
Quote: (10-31-2012 10:45 AM)reaper23 Wrote:
i've run game in bars sober, i've dated tons of chicks without drinking...you can do it
I know I can. Thanks for the vote of confidence, and tell it to a couple other of these guys, wouldya? If I can quit now, I can quit after trying this should it not work. Just like any problem drinker, I can always make a choice if I find the motivation.
Quote: (10-31-2012 10:45 AM)reaper23 Wrote:
one thing i noticed after i quit drinking is that no one around me was as drunk as i thought they were back when i was drinking
I actually find the reverse to be true. Drunk people can be damn annoying when I’m completely sober. Good thing my temper cools.
Quote: (10-31-2012 03:48 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:
Damn bro, that's some hardcore stuff. I know it's not easy to get rid of a bad addiction. I feel the same whenever I travel as I can get pretty crazy with drinks and as a result, got really drunk a few times and even a couple of times, really sick to the point of being in bed for the whole day for a day or 2. I gotta control my drinkings whenever I go to another country/city. When I'm at home, I don't drink at all. I'm toying with the idea of totally stop drinking as it can cause havoc at times. I wish you all the best man.
Yeah, nothing like a 2-day hangover to fuck up your productivity. And it sure is easy to get carried away in a foreign place.
Thanks for the good wishes, my man.
Quote: (11-01-2012 11:47 AM)Charlemagne In Sweatpants Wrote:
Damn dude - this thread really hit home for me. I struggled badly with alcohol through most of my drinking history, and although I didn't have your extreme violent streaks, I can certainly relate to the self-destructive aspects of being on the sauce.
I posted a bit about how I got my shit together in my intro thread. Feel free to PM me if you're curious about what I went through for treatment or have any questions. I still continue to drink a bit too much, but my existence is completely different than it was back in 2011 when I was literally drinking myself to death.
I know this shit is tough, but you've already taken a huge first step by admitting that you have some issues with booze and things need to change - most people don't have the balls to be honest with themselves in that regard. You've gotten yourself a moderation resource, put together a plan, and you seem damn motivated to make this work. You've also added some public accountability by creating a thread with your progress. That will go a long way.
I'm really rooting for you to get where you want to be.
Best of luck,
CIS
Thanks a lot, Bro. I read your other thread, and it definitely sounded like you were in a dark place. Thanks for the support.
Quote: (11-02-2012 04:59 AM)SelfPaid Wrote:
1. To be honest what the fuck is a Social Drinker? you Drink or you don't Drink. There is no in between if you take it seriously.
So in your case I would change my Goal to not drinking at all since going from a Social drinker, to a heavy drinker is a fine Line and quite easy to cross.
Hey SelfPaid – to be honest, I thought you were a troll based on some of your other posts about money and still haven’t made up my mind, but you did offer some good advice in this post, so thanks for that. I’ll check out the link.
As far as asking what a social drinker is, that seems to be a bit of a strange question. A social drinker is someone who drinks in moderation in social situations rather than going out and binge drinking on the weekends or drinking at home alone on the a daily basis.
Don’t play word games with me – I’m a writer.
And who told you there is no in between? That seems to be something you’ve heard rather than something you know from experience or from looking at the people around you.
Quote: (11-02-2012 08:53 AM)reaper23 Wrote:
why is it so important to you to drink? that is the real question
I understand you’re only trying to help, but why did you feel you needed to come back in here and throw this question back at me again when in the reply just above I’d stated I was going to come answer you guys when I had the time. Please don’t treat me like a child.
Quote: (11-02-2012 08:53 AM)reaper23 Wrote:
people who have a real problem find very intricate ways of rationalizing continued behaviors consequences be damned
As do all human beings for all types of behavior; this is not unique to alcoholics nor mean that abstinence is the only answer. Whether my rationalizations are genuine and correct or irrational and alcohol-fueled, you’re not going to give my thinking a chance, so why even bother?
In your mind, anything I say is a contrived rationalization. This is your paradigm, and I can’t have a reasonable discussion on those grounds.
This is what I meant by not being down with typical AA-thinking. I don’t care if you still go to AA or not; you still subscribe to their belief systems and the idea that abstinence is the only answer. You still think it’s a disease and that I’m not capable of rational thought about alcohol even when sober, which I find ludicrous.
And you’re still not open to outside opinions of the nature of alcoholism.
I’m not asking you to be because I wouldn’t want to affect your decisions in this way or turn this thread into a debate (again, feel free to do it in another thread), but understand that I’m trying to make some changes here. That’s a big step, so let me take it.
Quote: (11-02-2012 08:53 AM)reaper23 Wrote:
is my life better for not drinking? yep.
is it worth drinking to have all the risks of the consequences you outlined? nope
That’s great. But I believe I can minimize or remove those risks and consequences without abstaining completely.
You don’t, and that’s fine.
Quote: (11-02-2012 04:43 PM)LoveBug Wrote:
Don't drink alcohol, but have a similar problem with caffeine. Coke and energy drinks have been like water, and my body over time has become dependent. Its a war, not a battle. I think many people fail to stop drink because they make it an either/or proposition, and I don't think the body works that way in most cases. Have to ween yourself off gradually. Give yourself props on just cutting back the smallest amounts of it at a time while your body gets used to the change of condition
Thanks!
Quote: (11-07-2012 12:20 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:
Quote: (10-29-2012 09:46 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:
4) I don't want to be that guy that never drinks and can't manage drinking -
Sounds like getting thrown in jail might be good luck for you , before you kill somebody and and end up with 10 years to debate the wisdom of your stubbornness.
Better luck might be facing that you can't handle alcohol and stopping drinking.
Wow, really? That's a hasty conclusion...
Let me make a few things clear about me for those who might have the wrong idea. It might not change anyone's mind, but as every situation is unique, here's mine.
First, I’m not a senseless thug, and I don’t victimize people. In a lot of ways I probably just come from a different world than you guys.
Let’s have a look, if you have the patience.
First off, my violence doesn’t come from alcohol, as another poster hinted above. That’s the only time it shows itself anymore, but it began far before that.
I come from a very violent background and local culture, for one. My father spent the majority of my childhood in prison and my mom used to have this boyfriend who used to beat himself in the face with one of those big maglights – even knocked himself out once. Pulled a knife on me another time; used to get in knife fights at the bar and one time my buddies saw him put one threw a guy’s neck.
Nothing ever came of it because no one ever talked. That’s the culture around here – it’s outlaw country. This place is the real wild west and it’s still alive and kicking.
I remember I beat up that crazy boyfriend of my mom’s up once because of the one single time he laid a hand on my mom and I hit him so hard he lost his balance for a month. I can still see him on his knees bleeding all over the place and pleading for me to stop.
I was 14 years old.
After that he made up a story that my older brother and I jumped him from behind. Suddenly there’s word that a bunch of his biker buddies are coming after us – probably a rumor, but we were kids and these guys were dangerous – we got scared so we reacted. We bought a sawed off shotgun and waited. We lived in the woods back then and the nearest cops were a half hour away.
Every noise outside had me on my feet grabbing a gun.
I was barely a teen – you see what I mean? Her time with this nutcase was the same time I was going through puberty, and I learned his style of violence as a result – it was the most impressionable period of my life. Can you imagine what that does to a person?
I was a crazy motherfucker all through high school and couldn’t go through a week without flipping out and bloodying my knuckles on some lockers or walls. Often it took multiple people to subdue me. Often, if there was no way of moving my limbs at this point, I’d just headbutt the ground. A ridiculous amount of destructive behavior.
I was severely depressed too. Many times I couldn’t go through the day without flipping for no apparent reason and then I’d hitchhike home and just sit there feeling like I was going crazy.
They told me I needed to take anti-depressants. They told me there was no way I could control it. That I was like my father and bound to be manic depressive and paranoid schizo.
You know what? I decided fuck that and that I didn’t need meds to straighten out my mind – just like I’m telling you now I can control myself. I decided I was strong enough and smart enough, so I sat down and made it happen. And I was better within a matter of weeks. So good that my therapist said I didn’t need therapy anymore.
My behavior when I’m sober has been mellow ever since with very few outbreaks – the only incidents have been when I’m drunk. People who’ve met me sober or never seen me go to the dark side think I’m the most mellow, friendliest dude you’d ever meet – those who knew me way back when wouldn’t have believed that would ever be possible.
I was doing very well for a long time and shit hit the fan for me. My father had since OD’d and died, but I made my peace with him. I’d worked my way up from real poverty and was making a name for myself, but shit hit the fan and I lot everything I owned and had built for myself.
Every single thing.
It was a hard blow but I kept pushing forward.
After a year, I had built a good deal of it back and was going to the university and getting straight A’s when I had a run-in with some real hard-core criminals. I’m not talking your run-of-the-mill corner-street gangster – I’m talking about one of the most dangerous criminal enterprises in our country if not the world (I’m not saying the name on a forum for a good reason). They made a mistake. I had fucked a girl who was involved, and somehow I got caught in their bullshit crossfire (players beware).
Next thing you know I’m hiding out with a pistol and sneaking out of town, losing everything I owned once again because I had to make a run for it. All over something that was none of my business with people I didn’t know.
A friend was supposed to send me money he owed me – that was the plan. Start a biz with it and move on with my life. Travel the world and have adventures. Instead he burnt me and left me hanging overseas. I ended up living for years in Thailand with no visa, running from the cops at times so as not to get caught – I couldn’t afford to get shipped back to America without even having the money to properly hide.
Imagine that for a second.
You’re broke and down to nothing in a foreign country. You don’t have a penny to your name besides what’s in your pocket. You have nowhere to go. And you don’t know if you’ll ever be able to contact your family again in your life. No support system - and living in Thailand, an amazing place but in many ways a cesspool of addiction and extreme behavior.
I hit rock-bottom, Man – is it any wonder? I didn’t have to, but I did. I was living in a bad movie.
Got suicidal and crashed bikes. Would wake up sometimes not remembering driving them home. When I slammed one particular hooker without a condum, I did so because I didn’t care anymore – I figured if I got the bug, aka HIV, I’d rent a crotch rocket and drive it a hundred miles per hour into the side of brick wall and call it a life lived at full speed.
At times I got depressed when drinking and stood on my balcony looking down. Just thinking about it. That was the dark side. I was living in a bad movie and wanted out – not seeing that all I had to do was change my behavior. But we get caught up in the emotions sometimes, you know what I mean?
To go further, imagine what growing up in that way and hiding for your life like that does to your psyche. How it makes you react to aggression…
If you ask anyone who knows me, I don’t look for fights nor do I ever start them. In fact, many who don't believe that assertion go with me to a public place and then sit there shaking their head when they see the way certain guys get aggressive towards me when I'm doing nothing to invite it - I just come across as a mark. The other night some guy I never met spit on the back of my head. I'd only been at the party for five minutes and was getting ready to shoot a game of pool. hadn't said a word to him.
Sure, I’ve slipped here and there and instigated something when I just took it the wrong way, but in the vast majority of cases, the people I fight are bullies or people known for starting problems. It certainly doesn’t mean I want to continue doing it, but nor am I running around fucking with people.
Given my history, if someone is in my face, my whole body goes into survival mode. I don’t “step outside.” I seek to put someone out of the fight and get myself out of danger. If someone is in within arm’s reach and showing aggression, I act.
On top of that, you’ve got this place I’m in right now. A place where 80% of the men, if not more, are outlaws who made shitloads of money on the only industry around here, which is growing pot. There is ZERO other industry around here – I shit you not.
If you’ve never experienced something like that, it’s hard to explain the vibe of these mountain boys with stacks of cash. They think they’re hard, even though the vast majority of them were babied by their grower parents and never had to fight for a thing in their lives. They become dangerous. They drink and do coke to crazy excess and think they’re on top of the world.
The county I’m in has a higher death by gunshot rate per capita than L.A County. Higher STD rate. Higher drug use. And that’s the whole county together; I think if they just counted south county, or the boondocks, where I’m from, that shit would be through the roof.
And the women issue here – fuck. I shit you not that any night you go out you’re talking 95% men in the bar or at the party – 95%! That’s a shitload of unspent testosterone.
Here’s my point. People fight around here. They get down. They have bad attitudes and think they’re unstoppable. They think they like to fight until they run into guys like me and my friends and learn something new.
In fact, when I go to other areas, I very, very rarely get in fights. In Asian countries, where people don’t start shit (only finish it like me), I don’t get in fights at all unless with other Westerners, and this with spending 99% of my time with the Asians.
I’m not saying my behavior isn't extreme. Especially by the standards of the domesticated world. What I am saying is that I’m not going out hurting innocent people.
One of the guys I put in the hospital, for instance, ripped my cell phone out of my hand, put it in his pocket and wouldn’t give it back. Earlier in the night I’d already slammed him on his head for getting physical with me and then after helping him up was giving him a ride home and he talked me into stopping for a beer to smooth it over. Someone called me and he took my phone. Wouldn’t give it back.
I’m going to hit you if you don’t give it back, I said, and he just sat there staring at me with a crazy look on his eyes – far too close for comfort. The first, single, punch knocked him down but he kept staring at me from his seat and wouldn’t give it back. I was in a state. It was almost daylight and I’d been drinking all night. It was dumb, and I should have left. Instead of leaving, I told him I was going to hurt him if he didn’t give it back. He still didn’t, so I hurt him.
I took it back and left him there. In actuality, I wanted to take him to the hospital, but I was more afraid of being caught by the cops without a visa.
This guy was a gangster and a menace; he’d been bragging to me all night about his affiliations and starting shit with everyone in the bar. I have a real problem with gangsters after that shit that happened to me. Did I go too far? Of course I did. Was he an innocent victim I cornered? Absolutely not.
Another guy I put in the hospital? This girl I knew was bartending and she cut him off. He smashed her in the mouth with his glass.
Real defenseless victim, this guy. Did I go overboard? Yep.
Another guy was messing with my brother, who has broken multiple vertabrae and isn't even supposed to play soft sports. You don't mess with my brother. Period. Did I go too far? yes.
Fighting’s a helluva drug, much like alcohol.
When you’re good at it, it starts being fun for you. You’ve got this aura about you when someone starts shit, and you really feel like nothing can happen to you. The alcohol really brings that shit out of you too.
That’s what I meant when I said I invite that stuff sometimes these days. I’m starting to realize that I’m getting to a point when drinking well beyond my BAC where if someone is acting like a dick or being aggressive around me, I no longer wait until I have to teach them a lesson.
Instead, I’m inviting it – if not with my words then with my eyes and body language.
Because at the end of the day, part of you learns to like it.
Not to mention that as you can tell by some of my stories, I don't leave situations that are obviously ripe for confrontation or get away from dangerous people (that's why I mentioned in the first post I needed to take that step too).
My point of my original post was that I don’t want to unload on every guy who fucks with me – I’m getting too old for this shit, and my drinking was getting out of hand. After my experiences, I think it’s completely understandable, but it’s time to get a hold of it because that part of my life is (mostly) over and I’d like to move on.
I don’t want the health problems. I don’t want jail. And I don’t want to hurt people if I don’t have to.
My best friend used to fight more than me and get himself in worst predicaments. He still drinks – usually more than me – but no longer fights. In fact, he’s usually the voice of rationalization when we go out; it used to be the other way around. Yet another example of someone who’s done what I’m doing.
I still think violence is sometimes the answer. I still like a beer with an old friend or my brother. I still like a glass of wine with dinner and the easy socialization of a night at the pub with strangers.
I think I’ve set myself some very reasonable standards in the initial post and have been pretty upfront about my demons. As I mentioned before, the fact that I’ve made this public will force me to acknowledge if it’s truly uncontrollable. So if you guys are right, I’ll eventually have no choice but to own up and phase it out completely.
Meanwhile, let me do my thing.
Beyond All Seas
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling
Interesting long post, Beyond Borders. Your tales of being in Thailand and on the run from gangsters reminded me of the time when I too was broke in Thailand with a long expired visa. And the time I was chased out of town in another country by the local mafia, which included the local police. Ya, that kind of stress does tend to mess with a guys head.
Now that I finally got around to writing that mouthful down, which took a shitload of time, on with the update for this previous week - week 1 of the 7 weeks to Moderate Drinking book. How did things go?
Well, here was my week:
Monday: 1 glass of wine
Tuesday: Zip
Wednesday (Halloween): Zip - didn't go out cause I got off work late and was tired
Thursday: Glass of wine and two beers Total = 3 Spent some time at the strip club and probably would have got one stripper's number if I'd have stuck around, but I called it a night and figured I'd get it next time. Don't hit me with that amateur "strippers are just scamming you" shit either. I know how these girls work.
Friday: One beer. Got off work at 11:30pm and didn't bother going to meet my buddies. Seemed like too much of a hassle given the drive. I was at my mom's house that night and had a beer with her before I crashed out.
Saturday: 1 glass of wine & 5 beers
Sunday: zip
So what's the end result? Saturday I obviously went over quota. Things were good at the bar - stayed within my limit - and then I went to an after-party with 7 girls and a couple guys. Everyone was high as a kite, doing mollie (is that how you spell it), coke, and pills. I don't do drugs - period - so I felt uncomfortable and cheated, spacing 3 additional beers from 2 am until 7 am, at which point all these people finally crashed out.
All in all, that means 6 drinks in about 9 hours. The pace was slow and chill - I wasn't drunk given my size (215 lbs), the amount of time, and my high tolerance.
BUT ALLTHAT SAID, it was a case of not owning up to the commitment I'd made to myself, and to be honest I was disappointed with myself about it when I thought on it later, especially given that I only had to stick with the 3 drinks per day rule for the first week.
In the book, they talk about how sometimes fuck-ups happen, and that a lot of people who are trying to control their drinking react to their own fuck-up by completely giving up on the idea then and there, which sends them on a downward spiral. Rather, the correct action is to get yourself back on track and keep trying to stick to the new behavior you're creating for yourself. If that means going back a week, then so be it.
Just like any other time you're trying to change a behavior, you have to keep steering yourself towards the goal.
So even though I didn't get completely out of hand and get wasted or do something stupid, I'm going to repeat week 1 again in the spirit of doing it right. If something like this happens again and I don't stick to my guns, I'm going to go dry a full month before doing this - I usually do that annually anyways, and I'm overdue.
Also, one of my self-tailored points I made in the original post was to avoid after-parties with a crazy people. Obviously a bunch of chicks whacked out on drugs was not an ideal situation to put myself in and I should have just gone home. By the time we were there, I was driving for my buddy, who was trying to fuck one of these girls, so I went with it. Had those few extra beers and smoked some doob.
I honestly didn't even find these girls attractive even though they were good-looking girls. I remember sitting there talking to these chicks and thinking how retarded they were. All these pillheads do is talk about guys they've fucked and different kinds of pills, etc. After raging all night they took Xanex to sleep - what the hell is wrong with people? I remember thinking that American girls are truly fucked, but I suppose it was just the crowd I ended up hanging with.
Lesson learned: avoid after-parties with pillheads. And keep your commitments no matter what. My buddy didn't even bang either so what was the point?
Finally, I need to fill my schedule so I don't spend so many nights out. I'm super bored out here but the bars are empty of women anyhow so it's no use.
On another note:
I've been doing daily mega doses of zinc for the past week and a daily dose of 2 Tablespoons of Bragg's Apple Cider Vinegar.
I think I'm definitely getting harder woods and wake up with a rager every morning, and the Bragg's is like instant energy to me - except minus the crappy lows of coffee. I take 100mg of zinc 30 minutes after I eat and then another 50 - 100 a couple hours before bed. I've noticed it seems to make me slightly drowsy at first, which I found strange. They're GNC tablets if that tells you anything.
I was reading the zinc thread and one guy was talking about drenamine for stressed adrenal glands. I read up on the symptoms and a lot of them seem to be stuff I've experienced - given all the partying and not to mention the stress I've gone through over the years, it's very likely mine are harped.
I think I'm going to get on some drenamine for a while.
I started my morning ritual (http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-17066-...#pid292673) today to get more productive again and am sorting out whether I want to be doing Convict Conditioning or Starting Strength for workouts - today it was just pushups. I've got a 35lb kettlebell and will be doing that as part of my morning ritual to cut some pounds.
I'll post more about my health and productivity regimen later on as I move forward, but for now I'm still sorting it out. To be honest, it's kind of up in the air because I just moved out of my house and am couchsurfing until I figure out if I want to get another place here or head back overseas. I guess the answer is keep my program to stuff I can do anywhere, even if on the road...
I've been getting pretty caught up on work with the less partying though - huge plus. I could be doing better but have spent way too much time on the Rooshvforum. lol Turning into a fucking nerd. Got some web projects I'll be kicking into full gear again and will do some marketing for additional writing clients. Gotta keep the dream alive...
More coming soon.
Well, here was my week:
Monday: 1 glass of wine
Tuesday: Zip
Wednesday (Halloween): Zip - didn't go out cause I got off work late and was tired
Thursday: Glass of wine and two beers Total = 3 Spent some time at the strip club and probably would have got one stripper's number if I'd have stuck around, but I called it a night and figured I'd get it next time. Don't hit me with that amateur "strippers are just scamming you" shit either. I know how these girls work.
Friday: One beer. Got off work at 11:30pm and didn't bother going to meet my buddies. Seemed like too much of a hassle given the drive. I was at my mom's house that night and had a beer with her before I crashed out.
Saturday: 1 glass of wine & 5 beers
Sunday: zip
So what's the end result? Saturday I obviously went over quota. Things were good at the bar - stayed within my limit - and then I went to an after-party with 7 girls and a couple guys. Everyone was high as a kite, doing mollie (is that how you spell it), coke, and pills. I don't do drugs - period - so I felt uncomfortable and cheated, spacing 3 additional beers from 2 am until 7 am, at which point all these people finally crashed out.
All in all, that means 6 drinks in about 9 hours. The pace was slow and chill - I wasn't drunk given my size (215 lbs), the amount of time, and my high tolerance.
BUT ALLTHAT SAID, it was a case of not owning up to the commitment I'd made to myself, and to be honest I was disappointed with myself about it when I thought on it later, especially given that I only had to stick with the 3 drinks per day rule for the first week.
In the book, they talk about how sometimes fuck-ups happen, and that a lot of people who are trying to control their drinking react to their own fuck-up by completely giving up on the idea then and there, which sends them on a downward spiral. Rather, the correct action is to get yourself back on track and keep trying to stick to the new behavior you're creating for yourself. If that means going back a week, then so be it.
Just like any other time you're trying to change a behavior, you have to keep steering yourself towards the goal.
So even though I didn't get completely out of hand and get wasted or do something stupid, I'm going to repeat week 1 again in the spirit of doing it right. If something like this happens again and I don't stick to my guns, I'm going to go dry a full month before doing this - I usually do that annually anyways, and I'm overdue.
Also, one of my self-tailored points I made in the original post was to avoid after-parties with a crazy people. Obviously a bunch of chicks whacked out on drugs was not an ideal situation to put myself in and I should have just gone home. By the time we were there, I was driving for my buddy, who was trying to fuck one of these girls, so I went with it. Had those few extra beers and smoked some doob.
I honestly didn't even find these girls attractive even though they were good-looking girls. I remember sitting there talking to these chicks and thinking how retarded they were. All these pillheads do is talk about guys they've fucked and different kinds of pills, etc. After raging all night they took Xanex to sleep - what the hell is wrong with people? I remember thinking that American girls are truly fucked, but I suppose it was just the crowd I ended up hanging with.
Lesson learned: avoid after-parties with pillheads. And keep your commitments no matter what. My buddy didn't even bang either so what was the point?
Finally, I need to fill my schedule so I don't spend so many nights out. I'm super bored out here but the bars are empty of women anyhow so it's no use.
On another note:
I've been doing daily mega doses of zinc for the past week and a daily dose of 2 Tablespoons of Bragg's Apple Cider Vinegar.
I think I'm definitely getting harder woods and wake up with a rager every morning, and the Bragg's is like instant energy to me - except minus the crappy lows of coffee. I take 100mg of zinc 30 minutes after I eat and then another 50 - 100 a couple hours before bed. I've noticed it seems to make me slightly drowsy at first, which I found strange. They're GNC tablets if that tells you anything.
I was reading the zinc thread and one guy was talking about drenamine for stressed adrenal glands. I read up on the symptoms and a lot of them seem to be stuff I've experienced - given all the partying and not to mention the stress I've gone through over the years, it's very likely mine are harped.
I think I'm going to get on some drenamine for a while.
I started my morning ritual (http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-17066-...#pid292673) today to get more productive again and am sorting out whether I want to be doing Convict Conditioning or Starting Strength for workouts - today it was just pushups. I've got a 35lb kettlebell and will be doing that as part of my morning ritual to cut some pounds.
I'll post more about my health and productivity regimen later on as I move forward, but for now I'm still sorting it out. To be honest, it's kind of up in the air because I just moved out of my house and am couchsurfing until I figure out if I want to get another place here or head back overseas. I guess the answer is keep my program to stuff I can do anywhere, even if on the road...
I've been getting pretty caught up on work with the less partying though - huge plus. I could be doing better but have spent way too much time on the Rooshvforum. lol Turning into a fucking nerd. Got some web projects I'll be kicking into full gear again and will do some marketing for additional writing clients. Gotta keep the dream alive...
More coming soon.
Beyond All Seas
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling
Beyond Borders you should write a movie script based on your life experiences, it sounds like you got a hell of a story to tell.
Quote: (11-08-2012 02:43 AM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:
Beyond Borders you should write a movie script based on your life experiences, it sounds like you got a hell of a story to tell.
I hear you bro. lol I'm working on it - as a memoir at least. I've finished at least one novel and have a couple others started so it wouldn't be a stretch to slam the truth down on paper too.
Maybe I'll make it my project when I get back over the pond.
Beyond All Seas
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling
I'll second OGNorCal707 - that is a hell of a story, BB, and you tell it well.
This is super important. Fuck-ups can and will happen, and you need to keep the mentality that you should stay on track - don't get discouraged and don't quit. It's very likely that you'll see a few more nights when you slip over your committed limit. It happened quite a few times to me, but I kept with my treatment, and ultimately made a lot of progress in the long run. You have the right mindset.
I'd also like to caution you about the "honeymoon" phenomenon. Usually when someone commits themselves to a a behavioral change (whether it be starting an exercise regimen, diet, moderating the drink, etc.) the initial excitement about making this change leads to a lot of initial progress. Once that glow wears off, that's when the prime time for slip-ups begins. Should you find this happen to you (and it's certainly not a guarantee), continue to keep with the program - keep that mindset. I went through it too.
I really like your measured, well thought-out replies to those posters that insist on the AA/abstinence paradigm. That mentality is so engrained in Western culture, and debating against it is always gonna be an uphill battle. Keep it up, man.
Quote: (11-08-2012 02:03 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:
BUT ALLTHAT SAID, it was a case of not owning up to the commitment I'd made to myself, and to be honest I was disappointed with myself about it when I thought on it later, especially given that I only had to stick with the 3 drinks per day rule for the first week.
In the book, they talk about how sometimes fuck-ups happen, and that a lot of people who are trying to control their drinking react to their own fuck-up by completely giving up on the idea then and there, which sends them on a downward spiral. Rather, the correct action is to get yourself back on track and keep trying to stick to the new behavior you're creating for yourself. If that means going back a week, then so be it.
This is super important. Fuck-ups can and will happen, and you need to keep the mentality that you should stay on track - don't get discouraged and don't quit. It's very likely that you'll see a few more nights when you slip over your committed limit. It happened quite a few times to me, but I kept with my treatment, and ultimately made a lot of progress in the long run. You have the right mindset.
I'd also like to caution you about the "honeymoon" phenomenon. Usually when someone commits themselves to a a behavioral change (whether it be starting an exercise regimen, diet, moderating the drink, etc.) the initial excitement about making this change leads to a lot of initial progress. Once that glow wears off, that's when the prime time for slip-ups begins. Should you find this happen to you (and it's certainly not a guarantee), continue to keep with the program - keep that mindset. I went through it too.
I really like your measured, well thought-out replies to those posters that insist on the AA/abstinence paradigm. That mentality is so engrained in Western culture, and debating against it is always gonna be an uphill battle. Keep it up, man.
Beyond Borders, fascinating story man, I was hooked reading.
You're clearly quite a determined and resilient guy, getting back up and dusting yourself off when others would have thrown in the towel. So I think that in itself is commendable.
I think it's also admirable that you are openly acknowledging your demons and facing them head on. That takes real courage.
It does put into context the trivial things people bitch about (myself included) in their everyday lives.
Good luck on your journey.
You're clearly quite a determined and resilient guy, getting back up and dusting yourself off when others would have thrown in the towel. So I think that in itself is commendable.
I think it's also admirable that you are openly acknowledging your demons and facing them head on. That takes real courage.
It does put into context the trivial things people bitch about (myself included) in their everyday lives.
Good luck on your journey.
My 2nd Week 1 went fine.
Monday: Didn't go out or drink.
Tuesday: One beer
Wednesday: Glass of wine with my sushi dinner.
Thursday: Didn't go out or drink.
Friday: 3 beers
Saturday: 3 beers - went to cagefights at local casino and sober drove my friends all night. I actually had people trying to talk me into drinking with them, which was annoying - I get really annoyed by peer pressure and people who worry too much about what the hell I'm doing. I just brushed them off.
Sunday: 3 beers and then played sober driver for friends again who wanted to go back up to the casino. Left them gambling later on and went to the strip club with a friend. We were all up until about 5 am in the morning, but a couple of hits on a j did me right.
Nothing much else to report. Worked out a little bit but I need to get more serious about that and work. I'm finding that moving around from house to house is really fucking up my mojo on a lot of levels.
I'll make another post soon breaking down how week 2 works.
Monday: Didn't go out or drink.
Tuesday: One beer
Wednesday: Glass of wine with my sushi dinner.
Thursday: Didn't go out or drink.
Friday: 3 beers
Saturday: 3 beers - went to cagefights at local casino and sober drove my friends all night. I actually had people trying to talk me into drinking with them, which was annoying - I get really annoyed by peer pressure and people who worry too much about what the hell I'm doing. I just brushed them off.
Sunday: 3 beers and then played sober driver for friends again who wanted to go back up to the casino. Left them gambling later on and went to the strip club with a friend. We were all up until about 5 am in the morning, but a couple of hits on a j did me right.
Nothing much else to report. Worked out a little bit but I need to get more serious about that and work. I'm finding that moving around from house to house is really fucking up my mojo on a lot of levels.
I'll make another post soon breaking down how week 2 works.
Beyond All Seas
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling
BB - bumping this thread to see how you're doing dude. How's it going on the boozing front?
BB I've pushed this before in one of your other threads, but I'm a huge fan of the "Parts" or "Ego States" model of personality. I'll mention it again here in case you or anyone else feels like checking it out - it has a lot to say regarding addictive behaviors and things like binge eating/binge drinking (binge eating is a biggie for me).
The general gist of it is to get to know all the parts of your personality involved in the issue - the parts that want to stop, and also the parts that want to be destructive and binge. They each have power over your behaviors so it pays to get in touch with them and find out their "intentions", so to speak.
It meshes with your goal of becoming a moderate drinker, rather than swinging to the extreme of going tee-total ( In the Parts model, that can be seen as siding with your inner 'Controller' part, which can just cause your destructive 'Indulger' to rebel sooner or later).
Anyway, some maybe useful resources:
http://www.personal-growth-programs.com/...editations
(the 'Indulger' meditation is probably the most relevant; by that they mean the part of you that throws caution to the wind and gorges/binges)
http://www.personal-growth-programs.com/...-part.html
(guides you to get to know a part of your personality involved in problem behavior)
Book:
Healthy Parts, Happy Self
http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/254166
Really like this one. The first 20% is free online. More great insights into the "parts" of yourself and how they can have conflicting desires (e.g. some parts want to be healthy and sensible, others want to be destructive and binge). Good info on how to go about beginning to resolve these conflicts or out-of-control behaviors.
Each of the meditations and the book are like $3 each I believe, so pretty cheap.
Im finding these approaches yielding a slow but steady improvement in the areas I'm working on, so hopefully they might be useful to others.
The general gist of it is to get to know all the parts of your personality involved in the issue - the parts that want to stop, and also the parts that want to be destructive and binge. They each have power over your behaviors so it pays to get in touch with them and find out their "intentions", so to speak.
It meshes with your goal of becoming a moderate drinker, rather than swinging to the extreme of going tee-total ( In the Parts model, that can be seen as siding with your inner 'Controller' part, which can just cause your destructive 'Indulger' to rebel sooner or later).
Anyway, some maybe useful resources:
http://www.personal-growth-programs.com/...editations
(the 'Indulger' meditation is probably the most relevant; by that they mean the part of you that throws caution to the wind and gorges/binges)
http://www.personal-growth-programs.com/...-part.html
(guides you to get to know a part of your personality involved in problem behavior)
Book:
Healthy Parts, Happy Self
http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/254166
Really like this one. The first 20% is free online. More great insights into the "parts" of yourself and how they can have conflicting desires (e.g. some parts want to be healthy and sensible, others want to be destructive and binge). Good info on how to go about beginning to resolve these conflicts or out-of-control behaviors.
Each of the meditations and the book are like $3 each I believe, so pretty cheap.
Im finding these approaches yielding a slow but steady improvement in the areas I'm working on, so hopefully they might be useful to others.
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