[Roosh]

Interesting write-up.

Quote:

I dated a model during what you might call her "declining" years. I put that in quotes because to a normal person the idea is absurd. Models have a shelf-life of maybe 10 years, 15 if they are lucky. Once a model hits 30, the modeling industry considers her old and used up, and there is no shortage of eager 15 and 16-year-olds from Eastern Europe who are willing to work longer hours, fly more places, and get paid far less.

http://www.quora.com/Modeling-fashion/Wh...hion-model

[Pacesetter20]

Also, further justification for dressing sharp when flying and checking into a hotel.

[Roosh]

Like I wrote on my recent suit post, I find dressing up pays more dividends on dates, not approaching. Dressing too nice is constricting to the movement and energy that approaching requires.

[slubu]

I have a one-time, limited experience with respect to this topic that I can share...

A few months ago I was at my regular bar/restaurant in OC that consistently provides attractive DTF girls. At the bar ordering a drink, I asked this very very attractive girl next to me what she was drinking. Started talking, walked outside and we were hitting it off. She was 5'10 flat footed and really gorgeous. I found out she was a legit model, had contracts with Ford, spent time in NYC, Paris, Milan, etc. She was 25, her name easily found on google, etc. Eventually her friend (a grenade) said she wanted to go and started to drag her off. She told me she's single and to take her number and left.

Texted her following the Bang model a few days later, and after she went psycho on me, eventually met up for drinks/dinner at the restaurant down the street from me. Now keep in mind, during this time I took all my dates there because the bartenders knew me, it was upscale and was literally 100 yards from my place. What followed was unbelievable. The amount of attention and compliments she got was absurd. The other people at the bar would stare at her on and off. The female bartender couldn't stop telling my date how gorgeous she was. She came over probably 2-3x more than usual to make sure she was ok and if she needed anything. The bartender made sure to tell me to keep her around no less than 3x. Of course, none of this seemed out of the ordinary to her. She just proceeded with chit chat and never mentioned the absurdity of care she was receiving, most likely because this was *normal* to her.

Afterwards got her to my place but no further than a makeout, and even that took some dedication on my part. She told me she was seeing a surgeon but hadn't slept with him yet despite it being 3 months, and that he was not her boyfriend. She did actually seem very prude, but who knows with girls. She made some things abundantly clear which I found interesting: (1) she knows her looks matter and she will not settle for someone without money, (2) she only dates doctors and lawyers, (3) her model friends are star fuckers, love to bang random celebs and athletes.

I tried treating her like any other girl I went out with, but in retrospect I think that was a mistake. Only had one other date with her, a movie date because I couldn't get her to do something alcoholic. She was 100x more schitzo than any other girl I've ever gone out with. She'd change plans 3 times within an hour only to go back to the original plan. She had to drop plans for random photo shoots or model meetings all the time, and mind you this is just within a few weeks span, and it drove me crazy. She'd agree to one date, then want to do something else, then change both the plans and the day of the date. Finally after she flaked again on a third date I gave up and went cold shoulder. Sometimes I regret it sometimes I don't because the mental anguish I went through was torturous.

But, she was the best looking girl I've ever gone out with. There were times where I couldn't stop staring at her she was so good looking. Even little things like her walking in front of me into the movie theater I was just in awe of her body. Most of all however, it was absolutely mind-blowing to see how people treated her, and really burns it in your brain how insanely different these top girls are treated.

Personally, I know you are supposed to be all alpha and be objectively indifferent about outcomes and shouldn't treat girls differently. But maybe with a girl that has a whole different reality, there's another approach. Who knows. What I do know is I wouldn't have minded dating/fucking a model, that's for sure.

[Timoteo]

Models are essentially playthings for rich and/or famous men. They get handed from one to the other, until one of them wifes them up. When your looks are your business, it's only natural to be obsessed with how you look all the time. That has to be annoying for any man to have to deal with on a daily basis. Also, like acting, it's a rejection business. Unless you're at the top of the profession, you get told you're not this enough or that enough more often than you're told you're right for the job. Also, agencies actually take travel and other expenses out of their pay, so they may have to work a lot of jobs where they actually don't take home anything at all, because they owe their agency for money they laid out. For those that don't know how to handle finances, maybe they have to pay an accountant to handle that for them. Only the women at the top of the profession, who can get other kinds of work (acting, endorsements, etc.) really become millionaires. That's another reason why they hold out for only wealthy men.

It's also hard for them not to be warped by the trappings of fame. You're constantly catered to, and treated in a first-class manner. You're desired by pretty much every man you encounter. That's gets in your head after a while, and you start to believe you DESERVE the best. You can get a man that is probably desired by other women that may be just as attractive to accept that you're not going to fuck him. You can get boyfriend-like attention from him and not even acknowledge him as your boyfriend, all because you're a famous model.

Many years ago I was playing in the Lawyers Basketball League in NYC. One of the spectators for one of my games was Jill Goodacre, a prominent model at the time (Victoria's Secret, top magazine covers, etc.). She was there watching her then boyfriend, a lawyer, play. Some time after that, she ended up the wife of Harry Connick Jr. Can you say UPGRADE? HA HA!

[flyfreshandyoung]

For most of the summer I was "dating" a model chick (though for full disclosure not a big time model- I'm in Des Moines after all- but she still was pretty fucking sexy) and it was... interesting.

I detailed how I met her and banged her in this post and continued to see her for a couple months after.

It was definitely a "took my game to the next level" experience. I have never met a chick more determined to push my patience and more determined to steal hand. When we first started she'd always try and reschedule, push back times, and even bring her fucking dog over. I never caved or allowed her to take control, but at times it was almost fatiguing.

The amount of attention she got from orbiters was hilarious. She posted pics of herself three to four times a day on facebook doing random, menial stuff ("made a sandwich!") and would get 50 likes and 30 comments. In our final days she had finally gotten the hang of instagram so who knows how that is going for her.

On the plus side, everytime we were out service was great. Skipped some lines, got immediate service at bars, all that fun stuff.

The sex was crazy, which I always suspected was a function of everyone kissing her ass all the time. She wanted it real dirty all the time- choking, hard slapping, tied up, I mean shit, she even wanted me to piss on her (I never did). In her words, she wanted "to be degraded".

Her constant worrying about her looks was both really good and really disturbing. On the plus side, she wouldn't leave the house without 2 hours of getting ready. On the disturbing side, she already was considering Botox at age 25 on some non-existent wrinkles by her eyes.

Her ex boyfriend list pretty much comes straight out of the Roissy playbook- she dated, for long periods of times, two dudes who were massive, possibly drug dealers, and who definitely beat her- especially her more recent ex.

Overall it was a good experience but at times was not all that enjoyable because her neuroses and constant frame battles. The girls I've been seeing since don't even faze me one bit compared to her.

[Timoteo]

Naomi Campbell is probably the worst-case scenario, and the best-case all at the same time. She parlayed her fame into a brand, and has stayed relevant. The flip-side is she's batshit crazy, and a holy terror for anyone in her orbit. She's dated and even been engaged to famous or wealthy men, but they all cut her loose after a while. She's abusive to personal assistants, and had to do community service at the Department of Sanitation in NYC because of one of her assaults (Boy George got the same detail). At no point in her life has a dude (or another woman) stood up to her and put her in her place - maybe let her experience some of the terror she's inflicted on others. And that's all because she is a famous supermodel. We all know that the crazy ones are great in bed, so that must be the draw...HA HA!

[Nomad77]

As a partner in a photography business I've had the opportunity to meet and hang out with more than a few models and yes, one of my gf was one. These are not big time models but they range in up to girls from Ford and Elite. What he is saying is absolutely true. Models are constantly worried about their looks because that is essentially what they are selling. Until you've gone to a casting call and walk into a room with 50 other girls that look just as good as you it's tough to understand. They are very insecure because they don't know what the people are really looking for or what will get them selected for the job. Plus 90% of the time they will get rejected they won't get hired for a job. This really beats up their ego. I couldn't be a model. You basically spend 90% of your time sitting around just waiting for shit. You wait at casting calls, you wait for makeup, hair, styling, and then you still have to wait for us to setup the lighting and whatever else. We are talking hours and hours of just waiting here. You get dressed up go out for a casting and never hear back anything from them. You don't know who got hired or why or why you didn't get hired. Sure, they get a lot of attention from their beauty but the industry sucks as a business. They may have all the men chasing after them BUT they in turn are chasing after a very limited amount of work. In my experience this makes models very neurotic and it's the reason so many of them do drugs and drink a lot. A lot of them are also not as nearly as pretty in person. By the time we finish with makeup, lighting, and Photoshop we can take a 6 and turn her into a 9. And in my experience at lot of models as just not that smart and that's the reason their finances and life are messed.

[Krauser]

That link sounds about right. One of my longer relationships in 2011 was with a 29yr old formerly-top model. She was more stable than this one sounds but the general pattern was consistent.

[Timoteo]

(09-15-2012 02:54 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

As a partner in a photography business I've had the opportunity to meet and hang out with more than a few models and yes, one of my gf was one. These are not big time models but they range in up to girls from Ford and Elite. What he is saying is absolutely true. Models are constantly worried about their looks because that is essentially what they are selling. Until you've gone to a casting call and walk into a room with 50 other girls that look just as good as you it's tough to understand. They are very insecure because they don't know what the people are really looking for or what will get them selected for the job. Plus 90% of the time they will get rejected they won't get hired for a job. This really beats up their ego. I couldn't be a model. You basically spend 90% of your time sitting around just waiting for shit. You wait at casting calls, you wait for makeup, hair, styling, and then you still have to wait for us to setup the lighting and whatever else. We are talking hours and hours of just waiting here. You get dressed up go out for a casting and never hear back anything from them. You don't know who got hired or why or why you didn't get hired. Sure, they get a lot of attention from their beauty but the industry sucks as a business. They may have all the men chasing after them BUT they in turn are chasing after a very limited amount of work. In my experience this makes models very neurotic and it's the reason so many of them do drugs and drink a lot. A lot of them are also not as nearly as pretty in person. By the time we finish with makeup, lighting, and Photoshop we can take a 6 and turn her into a 9. And in my experience at lot of models as just not that smart and that's the reason their finances and life are messed.

I don't know if it's because they aren't smart. The ones that start in the business as teens are essentially children that haven't really had the opportunity to grow and experience anything. Even intelligent people may not be good with math, finances, etc. They become worldly in other ways, but not in ways that truly matter. If you take a person in their formative years and drop them into a business like that, you have to figure more often than not it'll mess them up a bit. Then they're cast aside with little to really show for it. They don't learn anything of value that they can take with them to another profession. Models and actors like Christy Turlington, Jordana Brewster, Natalie Portman and others ended up going to college (Ivy League in some instances), and then either returning to performing or going into business, etc. I do laugh a little when a model talks about how "hard" they work. I'm sure it's taxing in the sense that you're bored waiting, and maybe on some shoots in exotic locations they may have to deal with less-than-ideal conditions, or maybe having to beat off old dudes trying to fuck you, but that's a different kind of hard work compared to someone engaged in physical labor.

[Nomad77]

True, it's weird. It's not that they are stupid. A lot of them just don't seem to have a well rounded intelligence. One girl for example, was really sharp, I was really impressed with her. But she was a pot head. When she wasn't working or partying she just wanted to hang around smoking pot all the time. In the end she never really got anything she was talking about done because she was basically always high yet this same girl could almost beat me in chess and I'm a decent chess player.

[HiFlo]

Based on the models I met when I was studying in Europe, I actually like the attitude of "if you're not rich or if you're not good looking, I'm not even gonna talk to you." It's real and it's straight-up. No games. You're either in or you're out.

I think their intelligence is more career-minded and I like that about them too. The models I knew always had a next goal they wanted to accomplish (maybe not a concrete goal, but some desire to get to point B). By contrast, the hot girls where I'm at now are content being a fucking waitress or bartender for the rest of their life. A little ambition - even if it's completely materialistic and superificial - is very cool to me.

[Nomad77]

Personally I don't accept that attitude. If a model has an attitude like that around me I will fire her on a business level and won't interact with her on a personal one.

In Europe a lot of Russian and Eastern European girls are like that.

(09-15-2012 03:19 PM)HiFlo Wrote:  

Based on the models I met when I was studying in Europe, I actually like the attitude of "if you're not rich or if you're not good looking, I'm not even gonna talk to you." It's real and it's straight-up. No games. You're either in or you're out.

I think their intelligence is more career-minded and I like that about them too. The models I knew always had a next goal they wanted to accomplish (maybe not a concrete goal, but some desire to get to point B). By contrast, the hot girls where I'm at now are content being a fucking waitress or bartender for the rest of their life. A little ambition - even if it's completely materialistic and superificial - is very cool to me.

[Timoteo]

(09-15-2012 03:19 PM)HiFlo Wrote:  

Based on the models I met when I was studying in Europe, I actually like the attitude of "if you're not rich or if you're not good looking, I'm not even gonna talk to you." It's real and it's straight-up. No games. You're either in or you're out.

I think their intelligence is more career-minded and I like that about them too. The models I knew always had a next goal they wanted to accomplish (maybe not a concrete goal, but some desire to get to point B). By contrast, the hot girls where I'm at now are content being a fucking waitress or bartender for the rest of their life. A little ambition - even if it's completely materialistic and superificial - is very cool to me.

Madonna spoke unashamedly about this in an interview many years ago. She would only sleep with dudes that could further her career. She always had that drive and ambition. It may not always win you friends, but it may get you where you want to go. If all you've got are your looks for the most part, you need to parlay that into something more lasting. For models, networking and associating yourself with people that have the power to help you achieve your ends is necessary. Spreading them on occasion for a man that is willing to foot the bill seems a small price to pay.

[slubu]

Nomad, did you find your job in photography allowed you the access and opportunity you needed to date that gf model of yours? I always believe its access that is the biggest hurdle into dating girls like this.

[Nomad77]

You can do all of that and still be nice. Actually, treating people well and doing that will get you further where ever you want to go. In networking you never know who people are connected to. There is absolutely no downside to being nice and I have to say most of the successful models I have known were for the most part reasonably nice people.

[Nomad77]

Ye, it helps but it applies to everything. If you want to date an actress take an acting class or go to LA. You can go to events where there are a lot of models hanging around like car and boat shows. Any big convention will also have models around. I actually didn't meet her as a model though. I picked her up in a department store on one of my department stores gaming days I found out she was a model after I started dating her. So you literally can find a model anywhere.

(09-15-2012 04:00 PM)slubu Wrote:  

Nomad, did you find your job in photography allowed you the access and opportunity you needed to date that gf model of yours? I always believe its access that is the biggest hurdle into dating girls like this.

[Timoteo]

(09-15-2012 04:00 PM)slubu Wrote:  

Nomad, did you find your job in photography allowed you the access and opportunity you needed to date that gf model of yours? I always believe its access that is the biggest hurdle into dating girls like this.

For men that aren't famous, access is the next best thing. You'll occasionally find a model or actress that's either married or dating someone that was connected to the business they're in, but not necessarily famous or wealthy in their own right. You'll find that top photographers bang/date/marry models because they have access, and are actually responsible for how they look and are portrayed, so there's the power aspect also. Julia Roberts and Anne Heche married cameramen. Other actresses have married producers and others behind the scenes, because they had access. You're a familiar face that's always around, so comfort is built. Ask Kristen Stewart how she feels about directors...HA HA!

[Nomad77]

One problem with me and models. I am only 5' 8". Most models are taller than me plus when you add a 4" heel they are really taller. And as much as I would like to lie to myself and say I'm confident and it don't mean shit. In reality it does bother me. I am still not comfortable with a girl that is a lot taller than me. I have actually turned down a few really tall models because of this. Yep, I chickened out.

[Timoteo]

(09-15-2012 04:13 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

One problem with me and models. I am only 5' 8". Most models are taller than me plus when you add a 4" heel they are really taller. And as much as I would like to lie to myself and say I'm confident and it don't mean shit. In reality it does bother me. I am still not comfortable with a girl that is a lot taller than me. I have actually turned down a few really tall models because of this. Yep, I chickened out.

The reverse can be just as true, where a woman doesn't feel comfortable with a man that is shorter than her. She may love every other quality in him, but may turn him down because of height. Remember, you're talking about women that are already insecure about a bevy of issues, and women that are taller than average have an insecurity about height too. It takes them a while before they come to embrace it.

[Nomad77]

Oh, I am sure. A lot of women feel that way but for whatever reason these tall girls wanted me and models are accustom to getting what and who they want. One of my biggest advantage with models is not that I have access or that I am a photographer. It's that I really don't give a shit about them. I actually sort of don't like models. (I resent all the preferential treatment they get just because of their looks.) I prefer shooting regulars girls for fun than a pro model. And this real disinterest makes me interesting to them because 99% of the men they meet are the opposite. Usually the more beautiful they are the worse or more disinterested I treat them.

Now, IF they are nice and cool like my ex-gf was then I treat them like I would anyone else. But if I sense they have an attitude or they are too caught up on themselves then I lose interest.

[Samseau]

My mother dated millionaires, including Arab royalty, was flown around all over the world for free, took second place in a big bikini modeling contest back in the 1980's, etc.

I would always hear her say to her girlfriends growing up, "If you have to fall in love, you might as well as fall in love with someone rich!"

[Nomad77]

Ye, this ex-model we shot actually wrote a book on how to get rich men and the funny thing is, I read it, and she had some very good advice. It was like a gaming book for women targeting rich men...lol And she is married to some rich dude and he knows about the book and everything. One of the interesting things she said, she usually slept with men on the first date!

[Timoteo]

(09-15-2012 04:50 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

Ye, this ex-model we shot actually wrote a book on how to get rich men and the funny thing is, I read it, and she had some very good advice. It was like a gaming book for women targeting rich men...lol And she is married to some rich dude and he knows about the book and everything. One of the interesting things she said, she usually slept with men on the first date!

As mercenary as it may seem, she actually understood her true value. She understood that she had a lot of competition for these men, and in a way, in their world, she wasn't special. So you better give it up faster than the next girl if you really want a shot at him.

[Caligula]

Some insights here too: http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-4148.html