[DarkTriad]

(09-05-2012 04:38 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(09-05-2012 03:38 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

What does marriage have to do with raising kids? You can impregnate a woman without a marriage certificate.

No woman you would want to have kids with would go for that.

Now I know we are all alphas who will game Russian supermodels to join our harem and have our children out of wedlock.

But in the real world no legit girl is going to have babies without marriage.

??????????????????????????????

This has been going on since the dawn of time - if she loves you enough, she's going to want to have your baby. Talking them out of it is a much bigger problem than talking them into it.

Yes, this applies to the elite as well. They're less risky than people with holes in their soul, but it WILL happen.

[WestCoast]

I'll have to say I haven't seen a legit girl have a kid out of wedlock. Hot girls yes but legit meaning a real job $100k+ and good looking.

I have seen them trap their men though, usually as many guys may confirm, as you get into mini LTRs your game gets weak. So they trap you right when they believe you can't do any better, eg when you haven't pulled a new girl in a while.


Girls are crazy manipulative. But who knows its not all that bad out there of you keep your wits about you.

(09-06-2012 09:17 AM)DarkTriad Wrote:  

(09-05-2012 04:38 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(09-05-2012 03:38 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

What does marriage have to do with raising kids? You can impregnate a woman without a marriage certificate.

No woman you would want to have kids with would go for that.

Now I know we are all alphas who will game Russian supermodels to join our harem and have our children out of wedlock.

But in the real world no legit girl is going to have babies without marriage.

??????????????????????????????

This has been going on since the dawn of time - if she loves you enough, she's going to want to have your baby. Talking them out of it is a much bigger problem than talking them into it.

Yes, this applies to the elite as well. They're less risky than people with holes in their soul, but it WILL happen.

[Timoteo]

You know what some of these "legit" chicks do? They decide they want a kid, but don't necessarily want to get married. The "I don't want/need a man" types. So they have a "boyfriend" that's good looking, makes good money, and would make a pretty baby. They get knocked up, tell him they're keeping it, don't care if he wants to be active in the kid's life or not, and hit him up for child support.

[662LetGo]

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comme...d_a_slave/

[DarkTriad]

(09-06-2012 09:27 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  

I'll have to say I haven't seen a legit girl have a kid out of wedlock. Hot girls yes but legit meaning a real job $100k+ and good looking.

I have. It's rare, but if you're hammering them good enough, and they're crazy in love, and they're biological clock is ticking like a time bomb, yes, many will absolutely keep that baby. Yeah, if they have all the tools to lock down a quality marriage partner, it's rarer to see them without one, but never think they won't keep the baby.

[Veloce]

I get what the dads in here are saying about having a kid. Hell, I don't need convincing; somewhere in the back of my head I've always known I want a kid. I do believe it's the ultimate and only way of passing on a legacy, short of being that one-in-a-billion philosopher, composer, artist, physicist.

But regarding marriage? Hell no. Freedom trumps all. Like others, I'm at an age where most of my friends are settled down, married, or trying to do so. But most of them are only a year or a couple years in. I can only imagine what it's going to be like in 5 years when they're all fatter and more miserable, if not already divorced and getting assraped in court.

I'm never getting married in the U.S. And any girl I settle down with will have to understand why. Those are the conditions. You can say, "No decent girl would settle for that." That's fine. I'm in no rush to formulate a solution. All I know are my conditions, the solution will come later.

At 31 I've hit the prime of my life. I worked my ass off in my 20s to be where I am now. I'm financially independent and stable, my net worth is higher than its ever been, I'm in the best physical shape of my life, and I have the freedom to do or fuck whoever I want. Having been engaged, having been in serious relationships and living with girls before, I can say with 100% of my heart I'm not going back to it anytime soon, if ever. Something is going to have to click inside of me, maybe in my late 30s I dunno, where I'm ready to give up this freedom in exchange for having a kid and possibly a wife in another country.

Thing is, what I'm reading on this boards, is there are these extreme polarities it seems. Like the only options to choose from are:

1-settle down, get married, have kids, get divorced, get raped financially, get fat and miserable

2-keep living the playboy lifestyle and banging cheap bar sluts your entire life

I see many other options available. There's nothing wrong with having a girlfriend. There's nothing wrong with having girls on the side, or allowing yourself to enjoy the company of a woman, if she's a good one. There's nothing forcing you to put a ring on it. If she brings it up, tell her your stance. She'll figure it out. She'll either leave or respect your decision. There's no gun to anyone's head.

And yes, there is being alone. No wife, no bar sluts, no girlfriend. There are times in your life when this is absolutely crucial. Go do something great, invent something, write something, do what men do best: create. Women are a hindrance to this process.

I've got an LTR with a chick, I've told her repeatedly, no marriage, no moving in together. Not gonna happen. She'll put up the sad face for a couple days then come at me twice as hard with the affection, blowjobs, and bringing me food. Why? I put my foot down and she respects my decision. Me setting the rules increases her attraction to me. Might not happen with all girls but hey, maybe I got lucky. She never thought about guys getting raped in the U.S. before because she's not from here and doesn't understand how it works. I've told her how things are here and her response is usually, "Back home that would never happen."

As for being alone at 70: it's entirely up to the individual. Old age is lonely by default. Friends die off, or they get sick, or lose their mind. One of my best family friends is an 83 year old woman, she's amazing. Truly one of those amazing people I've ever met. She still goes on dates. She lives by herself on the UES in Manhattan and goes out by herself to watch theater shoes with her boyfriend who's in his 70s. She's widowed, has kids, and is the least lonely person I know. Last time I went to go visit her, she had a couple "friends" over for dinner. They were my age (in my 20s at the time) She has a wealth of people of all ages, from the most random social circles that care for her, just because she's got an amazing personality that attracts people.

If there's one thing that is glaringly clear, is that the socially accepted "normal" path of high school-->college-->career-->girlfriend-->wife-->house-->kids-->work-->retirement-->old age/death is absolute, 100% bullshit. Red-pill wisdom is about taking control and framing our lifestyle by our own terms. Whether it's relationships with women, or having kids, or how we age, the trusty Red Pill will not lead you astray.

[MikeCF]

(09-06-2012 11:31 AM)DarkTriad Wrote:  

(09-06-2012 09:27 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  

I'll have to say I haven't seen a legit girl have a kid out of wedlock. Hot girls yes but legit meaning a real job $100k+ and good looking.

I have. It's rare, but if you're hammering them good enough, and they're crazy in love, and they're biological clock is ticking like a time bomb, yes, many will absolutely keep that baby. Yeah, if they have all the tools to lock down a quality marriage partner, it's rarer to see them without one, but never think they won't keep the baby.

Ticking biological clock equals old equals not legit.

A 6 is not legit.

A poor white trash hot chick is not legit.

We are mortal.

None of us are going to get a cultured Russian supermodel from a good family to have our children out of wedlock.

Even Jay-z ended up gettig married.

So let's have this conversation within the context of reality.

[WestCoast]

Even if you could have the ideal the marriage contract immediately dilutes your value in her eyes.

As soon as you sign a contract saying "you'll be hers forever" part of the attraction dies. One of the core concepts of attraction is that you have to be willing to lose her, when you sign away a loss of 50% you're fucked. Hard.

Girls know exactly what they are doing when they get you to sign up, they "want" you to be theirs forever, but really deep deep down, they don't, they want to know they "could" lose you. Marriage kills that. And they start viewing you as a subordinate. Seen this happen to many co-workers.

I finally got my answer to kids though, I am going to adopt if I decide to have one. May as well change one persons life for the better. He'll be getting adopted by a well off came from nothing kid, arrogant I know, but better than being adopted by some random bitch who couldn't land a man and wants to raise her adopted son "right"

[alphaspiraton]

Marriage is something I hate with a passion, as you guys may have seen from my past posts.

It's good to see 90% (durang=troll?) of the forum members agreeing that marriage is bad in every aspect, even from the "but-I-want-a-kid" angle.

And as westcoast mentioned, your value instantly drops when you decide to get married to the chick. Beautifully written posts by a lot of members. I give you all an upvote.

[NewGamer]

I was just thinking out loud here, isn't there a middle ground?

My line of thinking is this:
-Be a player in your 20s into mid 30s.
-Get married, have kids.
-Continue being a player on the side.Run game as usual without the wife knowing so no divorce.

That would be the best of both worlds IMO.You have a wife, you have kids and you have women on the side.

Views?

[Timoteo]

(09-06-2012 04:31 PM)NewGamer Wrote:  

I was just thinking out loud here, isn't there a middle ground?

My line of thinking is this:
-Be a player in your 20s into mid 30s.
-Get married, have kids.
-Continue being a player on the side.Run game as usual without the wife knowing so no divorce.

That would be the best of both worlds IMO.You have a wife, you have kids and you have women on the side.

Views?

I think if you can find the right woman, a more progressive thinker, you can pull this off. Occasionally I've encountered couples who have separate vacations, etc. They give each other room to be individuals, while also carving out that couples identity. There's trust and freedom within the relationship. Most women wouldn't dream of giving this kind of space to their husbands. Their view of marriage is that you shouldn't NEED any space, that's why you're married. They see marriage as you becoming ONE (and the rest of your circle also begins to see you as a couple, instead of two individuals). The smarter couples recognize that you become THREE (your married selves, along with your individual selves). I think it's become increasingly difficult to find someone that views marriage this way, unless we're talking about the fringe types that have open relationships, swing, etc. To be able to play on the side in a standard marriage will be stressful, and the bitch will constantly be suspicious.

[Icarus]

(09-06-2012 04:18 PM)alphaspiraton Wrote:  

Marriage is something I hate with a passion, as you guys may have seen from my past posts.

Reminded me of a passage from Tolstoy's War and Peace:

Quote:

"You don't understand why I say this," he continued, "but it is the whole story of life. You talk of Bonaparte and his career," said he (though Pierre had not mentioned Bonaparte), "but Bonaparte when he worked went step by step toward his goal. He was free, he had nothing but his aim to consider, and he reached it. But tie yourself up with a woman and, like a chained convict, you lose all freedom! And all you have of hope and strength merely weighs you down and torments you with regret. Drawing rooms, gossip, balls, vanity, and triviality- these are the enchanted circle I cannot escape from. I am now going to the war, the greatest war there ever was, and I know nothing and am fit for nothing. I am very amiable and have a caustic wit," continued Prince Andrew," and at Anna Pavlovna's they listen to me. And that stupid set without whom my wife cannot exist, and those women... If you only knew what those society women are, and women in general! My father is right. Selfish, vain, stupid, trivial in everything- that's what women are when you see them in their true colors! When you meet them in society it seems as if there were something in them, but there's nothing, nothing, nothing! No, don't marry, my dear fellow; don't marry!" concluded Prince Andrew.

[NewGamer]

I think if you can find the right woman, a more progressive thinker, you can pull this off. Occasionally I've encountered couples who have separate vacations, etc. They give each other room to be individuals, while also carving out that couples identity. There's trust and freedom within the relationship. Most women wouldn't dream of giving this kind of space to their husbands. Their view of marriage is that you shouldn't NEED any space, that's why you're married. They see marriage as you becoming ONE (and the rest of your circle also begins to see you as a couple, instead of two individuals). The smarter couples recognize that you become THREE (your married selves, along with your individual selves). I think it's become increasingly difficult to find someone that views marriage this way, unless we're talking about the fringe types that have open relationships, swing, etc. To be able to play on the side in a standard marriage will be stressful, and the bitch will constantly be suspicious.
[/quote]

I think you have to create your own space. In order to prevent suspicion arising, it would be ideal to have a job that involves a lot of travel. You're still playing with fire though but after being in the game for a while, we all should be able to handle multiple women effortlessly.That is a big assumption though.

[JJ Roberts]

I am not seeing much talk about the actual motivations behind the original invention of marriage so I will throw in my $0.02

For almost all of human existence, human beings used to be hunter gathers living is small tribes. During this time we, like every other species on the planet, had no concept of property.

The hunter gatherer existence was a nomadic existence so anything you owned you would need to carry around with you anyway which would slow you down and decrease your chances of survival and not increase it.

Things like food, basic tools and child rearing responsibilities were shared in the tribe.

This is called the Sex 1.0 period of human existence.

Approximately 8,000 BC, we started to go through the agricultural revolution and, as a by-product of this, we for the first time invented the concept of property.

The first property was land, specifically fertile land that was good for farming.

Once the concept of property was invented it became very important for men to start to treat women as sexual property.

Why? Well, regardless of where you were born in the world, your ethnicity, language or cultural history one thing never changes. When a new born arrives, it comes out of the body of a woman.

Due to the self-evident nature of child birth, women could have sex with any number of men without ever having to worry that the child is not their own. It came out of their body; it's obvious it's their child even though they may or may not have known who the father was.

Men didn't have that luxury which meant that men experienced what I call paternity concern - the worry that they are raising a child that might not be theirs and they might be passing their own property down somebody else's blood line and best ensuring the survival of somebody else's children and not their own.

In a Sex 1.0 era this would not have been an issue with nobody having any concept of property to pass down and all the children being raised collectively by the tribe anyway.

In this new era - the Sex 2.0 era - however where property became a key tool for the chances of survival of both yourself and your children, establishing lines of hereditary became of crucial importance for men.

So a new system was required - a system of control needed to be invented to deal with this problem and to calm male paternity concern; a system which allowed men to claim women as their sexual property.

This system was called marriage.

So this is how the shift to Sex 2.0 came about. Historically the Sex 2.0 era is roughly 8,000BC up to and including present day.

For the past 50 years or so we have been living in the post Sex 2.0 era in which these original fears and reasons for the inventions of marriage have been rendered obsolete by paternity testing technology and women having their own careers.

However, that is the subject of a separate discussion. You can always click in the links to my signature if you want to know more about that because I wrote about that elsewhere.

As for how to reconcile marriage and kids? For me I would have an unfenced sexual relationship with the mother and sign and legal contract that lays out financial and parental responsibilities for both of us * AND NOTHING ELSE * as a replacement for the marriage contract.

Such a contract should always assume joint responsibility.

Marriage was historically designed as a system for men to best ensure paternity of the kids they were raising and for women to handcuff a provider male to her.

It's never successfully worked as a system to provide anything else other than that.

It's day is done.

[Timoteo]

(09-06-2012 04:53 PM)NewGamer Wrote:  

I think if you can find the right woman, a more progressive thinker, you can pull this off. Occasionally I've encountered couples who have separate vacations, etc. They give each other room to be individuals, while also carving out that couples identity. There's trust and freedom within the relationship. Most women wouldn't dream of giving this kind of space to their husbands. Their view of marriage is that you shouldn't NEED any space, that's why you're married. They see marriage as you becoming ONE (and the rest of your circle also begins to see you as a couple, instead of two individuals). The smarter couples recognize that you become THREE (your married selves, along with your individual selves). I think it's become increasingly difficult to find someone that views marriage this way, unless we're talking about the fringe types that have open relationships, swing, etc. To be able to play on the side in a standard marriage will be stressful, and the bitch will constantly be suspicious.

I think you have to create your own space. In order to prevent suspicion arising, it would be ideal to have a job that involves a lot of travel. You're still playing with fire though but after being in the game for a while, we all should be able to handle multiple women effortlessly.That is a big assumption though.
[/quote]

In this instance, it's the job that creates the space for you to do your thing without suspicion. She may wonder if you're fucking around when you're away from home, but if it's the job, she has to swallow. However, within the confines of your own home on a day-to-day basis, carving out that wiggle room is trickier. I think if you carve out something for yourself early, like gym time, or some other activity that is yours and yours alone, you can pull it off. Let her know early in your relationship that this is yours and a non-negotiable thing. For many years I played corporate league basketball. Pretty much all of the guys were married/family men, but they always had that (and probably golf too occasionally). I always recommend that guys do this early in relationships with women, and let her know that she better not schedule anything during this time, because I won't show up. If you do this, you can schedule in your side bitches for sessions. That way, you can shower before you get home and not raise suspicion.

[el mechanico]

Your right Timoteo space is the key..Your own house and maybe state so you don't feel smothered by all the unconditional love your wife is going to be giving you.

[NewGamer]

Quote:

In this instance, it's the job that creates the space for you to do your thing without suspicion. She may wonder if you're fucking around when you're away from home, but if it's the job, she has to swallow. However, within the confines of your own home on a day-to-day basis, carving out that wiggle room is trickier. I think if you carve out something for yourself early, like gym time, or some other activity that is yours and yours alone, you can pull it off. Let her know early in your relationship that this is yours and a non-negotiable thing. For many years I played corporate league basketball. Pretty much all of the guys were married/family men, but they always had that (and probably golf too occasionally). I always recommend that guys do this early in relationships with women, and let her know that she better not schedule anything during this time, because I won't show up. If you do this, you can schedule in your side bitches for sessions. That way, you can shower before you get home and not raise suspicion.

Good point Tim. A job with a lot of travel and some 'me' time would be the perfect combination.That is going to be my mantra when I do decide to get married. Gaming for life!

[Menace]

(09-06-2012 04:58 PM)JJ Roberts Wrote:  

As for how to reconcile marriage and kids? For me I would have an unfenced sexual relationship with the mother and sign and legal contract that lays out financial and parental responsibilities for both of us * AND NOTHING ELSE * as a replacement for the marriage contract.

Such a contract should always assume joint responsibility.

Marriage was historically designed as a system for men to best ensure paternity of the kids they were raising and for women to handcuff a provider male to her.

It's never successfully worked as a system to provide anything else other than that.

It's day is done.

Contracts that place limitations on child obligations are voidable by the court because state law regarding custody, child support, etc. supersedes such agreements. I wish it were not so.

[JJ Roberts]

(09-06-2012 05:21 PM)Menace Wrote:  

Contracts that place limitations on child obligations are voidable by the court because state law regarding custody, child support, etc. supersedes such agreements. I wish it were not so.

Totally depends on which country you are talking about.

This is not the case in almost all of the world.

If this is not the case in the US then that's something you need to speak to your lawmakers about.

[Timoteo]

(09-06-2012 05:08 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Your right Timoteo space is the key..Your own house and maybe state so you don't feel smothered by all the unconditional love your wife is going to be giving you.

HA HA! Funny you should mention this. Crazy-ass Dennis Rodman actually had this set-up with his wife. They lived in separate houses during the week, and she brought the kids over on the weekend, or he went over to her house. We know the rules are different for the famous, but non-famous well-to-do guys have been known to have that secret side-crib where they bring chicks. Or you can do the hotel/motel thing and have the credit card bill come to the office.

[MikeCF]

(09-06-2012 04:50 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

(09-06-2012 04:18 PM)alphaspiraton Wrote:  

Marriage is something I hate with a passion, as you guys may have seen from my past posts.

Reminded me of a passage from Tolstoy's War and Peace:

Quote:

"You don't understand why I say this," he continued, "but it is the whole story of life. You talk of Bonaparte and his career," said he (though Pierre had not mentioned Bonaparte), "but Bonaparte when he worked went step by step toward his goal. He was free, he had nothing but his aim to consider, and he reached it. But tie yourself up with a woman and, like a chained convict, you lose all freedom! And all you have of hope and strength merely weighs you down and torments you with regret. Drawing rooms, gossip, balls, vanity, and triviality- these are the enchanted circle I cannot escape from. I am now going to the war, the greatest war there ever was, and I know nothing and am fit for nothing. I am very amiable and have a caustic wit," continued Prince Andrew," and at Anna Pavlovna's they listen to me. And that stupid set without whom my wife cannot exist, and those women... If you only knew what those society women are, and women in general! My father is right. Selfish, vain, stupid, trivial in everything- that's what women are when you see them in their true colors! When you meet them in society it seems as if there were something in them, but there's nothing, nothing, nothing! No, don't marry, my dear fellow; don't marry!" concluded Prince Andrew.

Yep.

I use that quote many times to show guys that while American women are bad, marriage even to a woman from a "good culture" sucks the life out of you.

This is a good piece, too:

http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage...c_id/22098

[bacon]

all this talk of children if thats really what you want wait til have enough to retire abroad say the philippines and knock up a chick there. child support would be what you wanted not state ordered and dont marry the girl. OR idea tom leykis floated around getting a surrogate to give birth to the kid. that way you are the only one in control of the kid and no possiblity of the mother of your kid wants to shittalk you or move away you are protected.

I think another point is that the its gonna get old having sex with the same person 10, 20, 30 40 50 yrs of marriage JESUS dont you get tired of fucking the same person. Women dont age well so when these guys marry a women the same age things might be fine in your 20s or even 30s but in time esspecially after menopause all of her feminitity will be gone.

why do men need viagra shit if you had to fuck a 50 yr old you would need medicine too.

But on the financial side of things even prenups are not safe anymore and that was the last stand keeping marriage from your financial ruin.

another question? have you ever spent too much time with a close friend i mean like your best male friend and after a while maybe like a long road trip you just need time off. marriage doesnt allow that you have to live in the same house, answer calls about your whereabouts, eat together. its suffoacating

[Timoteo]

(09-06-2012 09:27 PM)bacon Wrote:  

all this talk of children if thats really what you want wait til have enough to retire abroad say the philippines and knock up a chick there. child support would be what you wanted not state ordered and dont marry the girl. OR idea tom leykis floated around getting a surrogate to give birth to the kid. that way you are the only one in control of the kid and no possiblity of the mother of your kid wants to shittalk you or move away you are protected.

I think another point is that the its gonna get old having sex with the same person 10, 20, 30 40 50 yrs of marriage JESUS dont you get tired of fucking the same person. Women dont age well so when these guys marry a women the same age things might be fine in your 20s or even 30s but in time esspecially after menopause all of her feminitity will be gone.

why do men need viagra shit if you had to fuck a 50 yr old you would need medicine too.

But on the financial side of things even prenups are not safe anymore and that was the last stand keeping marriage from your financial ruin.

another question? have you ever spent too much time with a close friend i mean like your best male friend and after a while maybe like a long road trip you just need time off. marriage doesnt allow that you have to live in the same house, answer calls about your whereabouts, eat together. its suffoacating

The thing is, you'll get tired of fucking the same person LONG before you grow that old. In fact, she'll stop fucking you LONG before you get tired of her. After the first couple of years, the sex will fall of precipitously with each passing month. And it won't be his fault. It will be her that says no, and looks for excuses not to fuck you. Men have the desire to fuck LONG after they're physically able to follow through on the desire,while women decide at a certain point that sex is no longer necessary or chore.

[Tengu]

Most of the comments and anecdotes come from American marriages and divorce laws, and Roosh has written extensively on what American women expect out of a relationship versus foreign women he's encountered in Eastern Europe. Are there better or different experiences with guys on the forum marrying foreigners or knowing international couples both in and out of the States? From my observation, international marriages might not be any happier, but they are statistically much less prone to divorce rape. Especially if you marry outside the country and never bring the bitch back to America.

[Don_Johnson]

(09-05-2012 01:20 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Then a guy named Mark Minter decides to set things straight. (Grab a beer, sit down for 15-30 minutes, and read this.)

Great piece, and no offense - but 30 minutes?