[Juan Antonio]

So I just got back from a drink date with a 21 year old English Jewish accountant from London. I met at a hostel bar in Toronto.

I met her on Friday night. She was alone and on vacation for 4 days. I was enamoured by her cheekiness, intelligence, and her accent, and we seemed to share a certain playful romantic chemistry. My wingman and I bounced her to a nearby bar, and I number-closed her before she retuned to the hostel that night (didn't attempt the SNL).

I set up a hang out via text for a Sunday night, letting her know that I was leaving the city on Monday. We met at a local bar. At the beginning of the date the vibe was great. She had on a low-cut black spaghetti string top showing off ample cleavage and white short-shorts. She was fun, flirtatious, teasing me, giving me strong eye contact, mirroring my body language, laughing at almost everything I said, and we seemed to have good chemistry. After a number of dates with self-absorbed young local girls who never asked personal questions, her playful attitude was refreshing, and the foreign factor was a plus. Better yet, she seemed genuinely interested in getting to know me and asking personal questions.

But at about two-thirds through the date the vibe totally changed. She suddenly put on her formless black sweater top. I would ask her questions, and though she would answer, no longer would she hold strong, unwavering eye contact as earlier. She was no longer mirroring my body language. She went to the washroom and took nearly 15 minutes to return. She tied her hair which had been down into a ponytail. She became less smiley and playful and flirtatious and a bit more testy. When I asked about her passions, her hobbies, and her greatest regret in life, she answered the last question with "is this your attempt to bring us closer together" before answering.

About 2 hours into the date we split the  bill and though I mentioned we could walk by the harbor, she said she had to get up early to meet with a friend she was meeting in another town. I walked her the 10 minutes back to her hostel. She was walking with her arms crossed the entire way through, clearly pre-empting any attempt at hand-holding kino from my end.

My question is what could have prompted such a sudden change in her demeanor over the course of the date? Have any guys here experienced this? Usually, I can tell within the first 10 minutes whether there is chemistry. In this case, the first hour went great but at the second hour her vibe had suddenly changed. Have any guys experienced this partway through a date?

I wonder what it was. I revealed that my parents were from Sri Lanka. She inquired as to when they moved to America, and what they did for a living. I answered that my dad was an engineer, my mom a math teacher. When she teased that it makes sense I'm in a quantitative profession, I made a self-deprecating joke about being only "slightly autistic", clearly as a joke. This was the point at which she put on her formless black top and her demeanor had shifted.

I can't help but feel that this is where I blundered. Suddenly, she viewed me as a kid of poor Third World immigrants, rather than an American from glamorous LA. Worse, I made the self-deprecating joke. In her eyes, I was no longer the cool high-status American from LA but a lowly brown immigrant in a nerdy math field. Girls bang guys they perceive as higher status than them, and she no longer saw me as high status (perhaps even further exacerbated with class-conscious Brits with many "undesirable" Indian/Pakistani immigrants.) This is particularly cruel as both aspects are essential to my identity, but in retrospect should I have not mentioned this altogether?

The one saving grace is that towards the end of the date I learned that she was staying in a hostel room with 10 others and my place was far away so logistics weren't ideal anyhow. But I still can't help but feel she would've been DTF if I had played my cards right (why else show up for a drink date if you know he's leaving the next day?)

At the end of the night she told me to keep in touch and let her know if I'm ever in England.

[MalibuPad]

Wow, that's a bummer. Perhaps it was the "slightly autistic" joke if she has a loved one with the disability. Sounds harmless to me, though. Could have been anything, maybe had nothing to do with you at all...

[RawGod]

She's alone on vacation for a few days = wants to get swept off her feet by an alpha. It seems like suddenly she realized you weren't the badass who was going to get her laid that night. Note that this is unconscious on her part. It might not have been any one thing you said, but basically your game wasn't tight enough. Too nice, you didn't push her emotional buttons etc.

[Juan Antonio]

(08-13-2012 01:12 AM)MalibuPad Wrote:  

Wow, that's a bummer. Perhaps it was the "slightly autistic" joke if she has a loved one with the disability. Sounds harmless to me, though. Could have been anything, maybe had nothing to do with you at all...

It's possible that she was offended by the off-color joke but wow, why can't girls ever give the benefit of the doubt? Reminds me of the Chris Rock joke advising guys not to "say anything stupid" as those panties are going up "mighty fast".

And I've had many first dates with self-absorbed early 20s girls that went nowhere. I don't care for most of these and have no regrets as these girls meant nothing to me. But this was truly the first girl whose company I genuinely enjoyed in a long time so it's a bit more devastating. Maybe it was just the novelty of going out with a British girl as I don't encounter many foreign women where I live.

[Tuthmosis]

(08-13-2012 12:45 AM)Juan Antonio Wrote:  

I can't help but feel that this is where I blundered. Suddenly, she viewed me as a kid of poor Third World immigrants, rather than an American from glamorous LA. Worse, I made the self-deprecating joke. In her eyes, I was no longer the cool high-status American from LA but a lowly brown immigrant in a nerdy math field. Girls bang guys they perceive as higher status than them, and she no longer saw me as high status (perhaps even further exacerbated with class-conscious Brits with many "undesirable" Indian/Pakistani immigrants.) This is particularly cruel as both aspects are essential to my identity, but in retrospect should I have not mentioned this altogether?

Don't let racial insecurity creep in. Your game probably got sloppy in some way that you don't even realize. She wouldn't have gone out with you in the first place if she wasn't into your ethnicity.

[Juan Antonio]

(08-13-2012 01:20 AM)RawGod Wrote:  

She's alone on vacation for a few days = wants to get swept off her feet by an alpha. It seems like suddenly she realized you weren't the badass who was going to get her laid that night. Note that this is unconscious on her part. It might not have been any one thing you said, but basically your game wasn't tight enough. Too nice, you didn't push her emotional buttons etc.

I can see this hallening. At one point I mentioned receiving my actuarial professional designation recently, and completing a series of exams with 40% pass rates while competing with the best of the best en route to credetialing. Maybe this is the sort of thing that gets a Russian or Asian girl wet, but for an American or Brotish girl has you instantly pegged as a "math nerd". And once that happens the vag clamps up. (Though ironic as she herself is an aspiring accountant).

I honestly think when gaming young Western girls in particular I have to make a concerted effort to downplay my intelligence. This is really hard for me to do.

[Juan Antonio]

(08-13-2012 01:48 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(08-13-2012 12:45 AM)Juan Antonio Wrote:  

I can't help but feel that this is where I blundered. Suddenly, she viewed me as a kid of poor Third World immigrants, rather than an American from glamorous LA. Worse, I made the self-deprecating joke. In her eyes, I was no longer the cool high-status American from LA but a lowly brown immigrant in a nerdy math field. Girls bang guys they perceive as higher status than them, and she no longer saw me as high status (perhaps even further exacerbated with class-conscious Brits with many "undesirable" Indian/Pakistani immigrants.) This is particularly cruel as both aspects are essential to my identity, but in retrospect should I have not mentioned this altogether?

Don't let racial insecurity creep in. Your game probably got sloppy in some way that you don't even realize. She wouldn't have gone out with you in the first place if she wasn't into your ethnicity.

I'm not so sure. She never knew of my ethnic origins (I never bring it up when gaming unless prompted). I sound American and I'm culturally American. To her I was simply "American".

Of course her perception may have shifted once the issue of ethnicity arose and I revealed a less sexy, "lower status" identity.

[Tuthmosis]

(08-13-2012 01:54 AM)Juan Antonio Wrote:  

I'm not so sure. She never knew of my ethnic origins (I never bring it up when gaming unless prompted). I sound American and I'm culturally American. To her I was simply "American".

Of course her perception may have shifted once the issue of ethnicity arose and I revealed a less sexy, "lower status" identity.

Maybe you should rest the race topic. You're starting to sound trollish:

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-14147.html
http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-14892-...#pid247686
http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-14892-...#pid247691

[Capitán Peligroso]

Quote:

But this was truly the first girl whose company I genuinely enjoyed in a long time so it's a bit more devastating.

This sounds a lot like one-itis to me. It's great that you connected with her in this way, but women should generally be doors to walk through, not rooms to reside in. I had a professor that put it this way: "you should always have lots of girlfriends, so if you lose one, it's like missing the bus...another one will be along in 15 minutes." With this kind of abundance mindset, it's much easier to maintain the frames you need to game successfully, so go out and find ten better ones. Then you won't mind so much if you lose one.

[Juan Antonio]

(08-13-2012 02:25 AM)Capitán Peligroso Wrote:  

Quote:

But this was truly the first girl whose company I genuinely enjoyed in a long time so it's a bit more devastating.

This sounds a lot like one-itis to me. It's great that you connected with her in this way, but women should generally be doors to walk through, not rooms to reside in. I had a professor that put it this way: "you should always have lots of girlfriends, so if you lose one, it's like missing the bus...another one will be along in 15 minutes." With this kind of abundance mindset, it's much easier to maintain the frames you need to game successfully, so go out and find ten better ones. Then you won't mind so much if you lose one.

I agree entirely. Heck, I've been with better looking girls. Yet even the most cold, stone-hearted player meets a girl every once in a while whom he's completely smitten by because of her infectious smile and charm.

I meet new girls all the time in my college town. But the general calibre of early 20s American and Canadian girls in the "Facebook generation" is so lacking with so many narcissistic princesses who love talking about nothing but themselves. There's no wit, no grace, no femininity, no charm beneath the general vapidness. Getting them to ask you a personal question or even look you in the eye is like pulling teeth. When I'm out with these girls there's nothing to them beyond counting the hours until I stick it in.

This girl's charm, wit and personality was incredibly refreshing. Her energy, her vibe , the way she'd smile and laugh when I'd tease her, the way she'd tease me back. The way she'd look me in the eye and hold eye contact (at least initially). I hadn't shared that level of intimacy or bond with a girl in a really long time.

Again, I've never created a thread about one particular girl because I know right away when there's nothing there. Yet this was a little different - such is the impact she had on me, and unlike with the vast majority of girls, a part of me was crushed when it started careening downhill.

Putting this all down in text here has been oddly carthatic and I'm starting to feel a bit better now...

[MrXY]

(08-13-2012 01:54 AM)Juan Antonio Wrote:  

(08-13-2012 01:48 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(08-13-2012 12:45 AM)Juan Antonio Wrote:  

I can't help but feel that this is where I blundered. Suddenly, she viewed me as a kid of poor Third World immigrants, rather than an American from glamorous LA. Worse, I made the self-deprecating joke. In her eyes, I was no longer the cool high-status American from LA but a lowly brown immigrant in a nerdy math field. Girls bang guys they perceive as higher status than them, and she no longer saw me as high status (perhaps even further exacerbated with class-conscious Brits with many "undesirable" Indian/Pakistani immigrants.) This is particularly cruel as both aspects are essential to my identity, but in retrospect should I have not mentioned this altogether?

Don't let racial insecurity creep in. Your game probably got sloppy in some way that you don't even realize. She wouldn't have gone out with you in the first place if she wasn't into your ethnicity.

I'm not so sure. She never knew of my ethnic origins (I never bring it up when gaming unless prompted). I sound American and I'm culturally American. To her I was simply "American".

Of course her perception may have shifted once the issue of ethnicity arose and I revealed a less sexy, "lower status" identity.

This makes no sense at all. You do know that "American" is a nationality not an ethnicity, right?

If you don't look white then obviously she knew you weren't white, right?

And she went out with you anyway, right?

As Tuth said, sounds like you had bad game and are now trying to accuse her of "racism"

Maybe we need to call in the troll detector

[Divorco]

(08-13-2012 12:45 AM)Juan Antonio Wrote:  

I can't help but feel that this is where I blundered.

At the end of the night she told me to keep in touch

At this point you have lost the momentum and have nothing to lose. So I would consider a recovery feedback text or e-mail. It must be nonneedy and nonthreatening. The main purpose is to seek clarification and information. But it is possible that she feels weird about something, and clearing the air will resuscitate.

Anyway, you want to make it emotionally and writing-wise easy to respond. For example:

Quick feedback please: Why did put your sweater on and lose interest? A) Offended by bad autism joke. B) Not interested in Sri Lankans. C) Other? No worries.

She might reply "Huh, I thought you didn't like me!" Or "Yeah, it's awkward, but I only want to date people who are culturally similar". Or "My sibling has Asbergers, but now I realize you were lampooning yourself and it is a little endearing."

[WestCoast]

Hate to say it. The date was fucked 15 minutes in. The girl is staying at a hostel. She wants "adventure".

Should have been quick drink, hard alcohol. Get the check already. You leave for the bathroom not you waitin on her. You slip the bartender a $20 and tell her "let's go".

She doesn't know if you paid, or if you're a G and have that place on lock. Find out which type of fun she likes "the ditch" type or the "g type" answer her excited questioning appropriately.

Venues change, during venue change touch frequently. You're now in a dance venue, tease, grab drinks. Tease flirt, make out.

Venue change again if need be.

Should be done after that. Have to create "momentum" of adventure. Not "let's have long conversations about life" girls say they want this but at the en of the day. No they don't. Least not the attractive ones

[Juan Antonio]

Divorco, ordinarily I wouldn't do that as girls are never honest about it. In this case it really irks me and since she lives overseas and I'll never see her again I'll text her, although I'll phrase it in a less aspie away.

"hey I want to ask you about something if you don't mind answering"

"why'd you suddenly go cold on me last night? tell me if it was something I said. since we're continents apart you can be brutally honest, I'd appreciate it"

[Juan Antonio]

(08-13-2012 11:13 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  

Hate to say it. The date was fucked 15 minutes in. The girl is staying at a hostel. She wants "adventure".

Should have been quick drink, hard alcohol. Get the check already. You leave for the bathroom not you waitin on her. You slip the bartender a $20 and tell her "let's go".

She doesn't know if you paid, or if you're a G and have that place on lock. Find out which type of fun she likes "the ditch" type or the "g type" answer her excited questioning appropriately.

Venues change, during venue change touch frequently. You're now in a dance venue, tease, grab drinks. Tease flirt, make out.

Venue change again if need be.

Should be done after that. Have to create "momentum" of adventure. Not "let's have long conversations about life" girls say they want this but at the en of the day. No they don't. Least not the attractive ones

Fuck you're right. I went way too deep into serious "getting to know you" rapport for a tourist girl who was just looking to keep it superficial and surface-level and have some adventure and fun. When she realized I may not be that guy she took me for a chump and shut down (as evidenced by putting on the sweater).

She initially saw me as the fun American tourist that she danced and flirted and teased about British/American quirks with from our first night. She came out two days later for a late night drink alone and was probably DTF guaging by how she dressed. Fuck fuck fuck.

Thanks for clearing it up WestCoast.

[WestCoast]

No worries man, rapport is fine in some cases.

"I am leaving in a week"

Pretty much screams sweep me off my feet and make me want to bang you fast and hard. She wanted to go home and tell her friends about this smooth guy who was great on the dance floor and "amazing in bed".

Live and learn. Next!

Besides look at the positives you got a british girl slutted out in a single night, the boat is drifting in the right direction! Just don't make the same mistakes twice.

[XXL]

to me, unless she received some bad news via phone during that time, she probably just lost patience and went cold. aka lack of leading. that's cool lesson that it's always good to move forward until getting that serious NO. so many times i did it myself where i had good interaction like yours and i then decided to push forward fast and the girl didn't resist at all.. i was like oh shit i'd better speed it up for real hahahahah..