[pitt]

Just wondering,

Do you guys think US is a good country to enrich yourself? Is it better than developing economies and BRIC countries in terms of getting rich?

I wonder if a country that is ''completely'' built in most of areas still offering opportunities to become rich. If you were to choose a country to start from zero and become rich, would you choose US? Or would people be better off in developing economies?

Is US the best place to start a business?

I wonder what members on here have to say about this, i see guys on here like moma moving to the states to achieve that dream, i wonder if this is a sensible move.

[thegmanifesto]

"Is US a good country to become rich?"

I have nothing to compare it to.

But surprisingly, I would answer "yes".

[Brian]

yes. becoming rich is hard anywhere but its easier in the US then most places. you still have to have the idea, work your ass off, get a little bit lucky but you will have less obstacles like corruption and government interference here then in a lot of other places.

[rudebwoy]

Majority of people that I know that have made the move had done well, not rich but they live very well. As you already know things are alot cheaper than Britain, take a look at house prices in Vegas and Miami.

I guess they don't call it the American Dream for nothing.

[Andy_B]

It really depends on how you plan to become rich.

The basic economics of the U.S. are not really great for entrepreneurs, but certain cultural factors make it so that certain paths to getting rich are really only "doable" in the U.S. This runs counter to the commonsense about the U.S. economy, but the numbers seem to back it up.

Contrary to popular belief, the U.S. economy is not a low-tax small-government business-above-all-else oligarchy. In fact, it is about as "socialist" as any other developed country. Government spending in the U.S. is quite high (as a percentage of GDP, government spending is MUCH higher in the U.S. than in China), and corporate taxes are among the highest in the developed world. Further, the majority of government spending in the U.S. goes to the military, and there is relatively little in the way of business grants and other support programs like you find in, say, Australia.

So the U.S. is not really a good environment, fiscally, for starting a business in. If you want to do it as a corporation, you're facing the highest corporate tax rate in the OECD. If you want to be a solopreneur or freelancer, you're getting double taxed as a business AND an earner of personal income. As far as I can tell, the tax penalty for being self employed is higher in the U.S. than in other developed countries. In many countries, self employed people actually pay lower taxes than employees, after tax deductions are factored in. From what I gather, the opposite is true in the U.S.

And, there is the simple fact that U.S. citizens are just statistically less likely to rise in economic class compared to citizens of Western European countries. I'm too lazy to look like up right now, but it's well documented and highly publicized, so you can Google it and find it.

In spite of all that though, there are still some "soft" factors that make the U.S. one of the best countries for getting rich.

For one, the culture just generally values innovation, novelty and "ballsiness" more than any other country. As a rule, nobody will really give a shit if you're an entrepreneur in Canada or Western Europe, and you won't get much encouragement for it. In the U.S., it's generally thought that being an entrepreneur is something to aim for, which can create certain social incentives to do so.

For another, if you live in the U.S., you're just closer to trends that have started and have yet to crest. You're more exposed to the zeitgeist in tech, business, media, etc. This creates opportunities to invest early. The internet may have mitigated this somewhat, but it's still true to an extent.

Finally, there are just certain paths to wealth that exist in the U.S. that don't exist anywhere else. Take entertainment for example. Outside the U.S., movies just aren't that profitable of a business, and TV is often government-subsidized. In the U.S., this industry is actually a pretty decent path to making a living and even getting rich. The startup scene, too, is better in the U.S. than anywhere else. What countries other than the U.S. have web startups that anyone can name off the top of their head? Finland had Skype, Sweden had Spotify, but other than that? Nowhere else in the world is there a startup scene on the same level as the U.S.

So, in sum, the U.S. is not the best place in the world for any joe to seek his fortune, but it does have certain advantages and is furthermore basically the only real arena for becoming successful in certain areas.

[thegmanifesto]

(07-22-2012 02:23 PM)Andy_B Wrote:  

For one, the culture just generally values innovation, novelty and "ballsiness" more than any other country.

Yeah, it is not so much the environment, it is the culture.

You grow up thinking anything is possible and can happen.

Almost every one of my friends is an entrepreneur and would be considered "successful" by most counts.

You get surrounded by people like that and it makes it very hard to fail.

Keep in mind I am speaking specifically to California. There are of course other hubs in the USA that foster this mentality as well.

[whosyourdaddy]

After spending time in Asia (third world countries), you also can't over estimate how much you can do in America just saving most of your cash.

If you earn about 100K a year and:

1. Save most of it by living like a pauper.

2. Don't marry/have kids or marry a chick who earns decent coin and also believes in saving most of your income.

3. Take most of your money and invest it properly.

You have a pretty good shot at a pretty high net worth even pretty early on.

It's amazing how much money you could save/blow on a bunch on all sorts of little things.

[johnwu]

(07-22-2012 02:23 PM)Andy_B Wrote:  

It really depends on how you plan to become rich.

The basic economics of the U.S. are not really great for entrepreneurs, but certain cultural factors make it so that certain paths to getting rich are really only "doable" in the U.S. This runs counter to the commonsense about the U.S. economy, but the numbers seem to back it up.

Contrary to popular belief, the U.S. economy is not a low-tax small-government business-above-all-else oligarchy. In fact, it is about as "socialist" as any other developed country. Government spending in the U.S. is quite high (as a percentage of GDP, government spending is MUCH higher in the U.S. than in China), and corporate taxes are among the highest in the developed world. Further, the majority of government spending in the U.S. goes to the military, and there is relatively little in the way of business grants and other support programs like you find in, say, Australia.

So the U.S. is not really a good environment, fiscally, for starting a business in. If you want to do it as a corporation, you're facing the highest corporate tax rate in the OECD. If you want to be a solopreneur or freelancer, you're getting double taxed as a business AND an earner of personal income. As far as I can tell, the tax penalty for being self employed is higher in the U.S. than in other developed countries. In many countries, self employed people actually pay lower taxes than employees, after tax deductions are factored in. From what I gather, the opposite is true in the U.S.

And, there is the simple fact that U.S. citizens are just statistically less likely to rise in economic class compared to citizens of Western European countries. I'm too lazy to look like up right now, but it's well documented and highly publicized, so you can Google it and find it.

In spite of all that though, there are still some "soft" factors that make the U.S. one of the best countries for getting rich.

For one, the culture just generally values innovation, novelty and "ballsiness" more than any other country. As a rule, nobody will really give a shit if you're an entrepreneur in Canada or Western Europe, and you won't get much encouragement for it. In the U.S., it's generally thought that being an entrepreneur is something to aim for, which can create certain social incentives to do so.

For another, if you live in the U.S., you're just closer to trends that have started and have yet to crest. You're more exposed to the zeitgeist in tech, business, media, etc. This creates opportunities to invest early. The internet may have mitigated this somewhat, but it's still true to an extent.

Finally, there are just certain paths to wealth that exist in the U.S. that don't exist anywhere else. Take entertainment for example. Outside the U.S., movies just aren't that profitable of a business, and TV is often government-subsidized. In the U.S., this industry is actually a pretty decent path to making a living and even getting rich. The startup scene, too, is better in the U.S. than anywhere else. What countries other than the U.S. have web startups that anyone can name off the top of their head? Finland had Skype, Sweden had Spotify, but other than that? Nowhere else in the world is there a startup scene on the same level as the U.S.

So, in sum, the U.S. is not the best place in the world for any joe to seek his fortune, but it does have certain advantages and is furthermore basically the only real arena for becoming successful in certain areas.

This, right here gentlemen, is a fine specimen of internet bullshit.

You too, can be an expert on economies, with just a few simple steps!

First, start with a broad claim, that you will never actually talk about, and twist it with a lot of reference to numbers to make you seem right.

Then make another broad general claim, even though it is filled with incorrect information, don't worry, start talking about something completely unrelated but makes it seem important!

Then continue to spew incorrect information, because they've got to believe you're an expert by now.

For the coupe de grace, finish them off with a "simple fact" based on a statistic that you cannot be bothered to look up right now! In fact, throw in the link to the statistic if you have it, because golly we all know all statistics are not skewed in any way at all!

Repeat as needed.

[el mechanico]

(07-22-2012 05:27 PM)johnwu Wrote:  

(07-22-2012 02:23 PM)Andy_B Wrote:  

It really depends on how you plan to become rich.

The basic economics of the U.S. are not really great for entrepreneurs, but certain cultural factors make it so that certain paths to getting rich are really only "doable" in the U.S. This runs counter to the commonsense about the U.S. economy, but the numbers seem to back it up.

Contrary to popular belief, the U.S. economy is not a low-tax small-government business-above-all-else oligarchy. In fact, it is about as "socialist" as any other developed country. Government spending in the U.S. is quite high (as a percentage of GDP, government spending is MUCH higher in the U.S. than in China), and corporate taxes are among the highest in the developed world. Further, the majority of government spending in the U.S. goes to the military, and there is relatively little in the way of business grants and other support programs like you find in, say, Australia.

So the U.S. is not really a good environment, fiscally, for starting a business in. If you want to do it as a corporation, you're facing the highest corporate tax rate in the OECD. If you want to be a solopreneur or freelancer, you're getting double taxed as a business AND an earner of personal income. As far as I can tell, the tax penalty for being self employed is higher in the U.S. than in other developed countries. In many countries, self employed people actually pay lower taxes than employees, after tax deductions are factored in. From what I gather, the opposite is true in the U.S.

And, there is the simple fact that U.S. citizens are just statistically less likely to rise in economic class compared to citizens of Western European countries. I'm too lazy to look like up right now, but it's well documented and highly publicized, so you can Google it and find it.

In spite of all that though, there are still some "soft" factors that make the U.S. one of the best countries for getting rich.

For one, the culture just generally values innovation, novelty and "ballsiness" more than any other country. As a rule, nobody will really give a shit if you're an entrepreneur in Canada or Western Europe, and you won't get much encouragement for it. In the U.S., it's generally thought that being an entrepreneur is something to aim for, which can create certain social incentives to do so.

For another, if you live in the U.S., you're just closer to trends that have started and have yet to crest. You're more exposed to the zeitgeist in tech, business, media, etc. This creates opportunities to invest early. The internet may have mitigated this somewhat, but it's still true to an extent.

Finally, there are just certain paths to wealth that exist in the U.S. that don't exist anywhere else. Take entertainment for example. Outside the U.S., movies just aren't that profitable of a business, and TV is often government-subsidized. In the U.S., this industry is actually a pretty decent path to making a living and even getting rich. The startup scene, too, is better in the U.S. than anywhere else. What countries other than the U.S. have web startups that anyone can name off the top of their head? Finland had Skype, Sweden had Spotify, but other than that? Nowhere else in the world is there a startup scene on the same level as the U.S.

So, in sum, the U.S. is not the best place in the world for any joe to seek his fortune, but it does have certain advantages and is furthermore basically the only real arena for becoming successful in certain areas.

This, right here gentlemen, is a fine specimen of internet bullshit.

You too, can be an expert on economies, with just a few simple steps!

First, start with a broad claim, that you will never actually talk about, and twist it with a lot of reference to numbers to make you seem right.

Then make another broad general claim, even though it is filled with incorrect information, don't worry, start talking about something completely unrelated but makes it seem important!

Then continue to spew incorrect information, because they've got to believe you're an expert by now.

For the coupe de grace, finish them off with a "simple fact" based on a statistic that you cannot be bothered to look up right now! In fact, throw in the link to the statistic if you have it, because golly we all know all statistics are not skewed in any way at all!

Repeat as needed.

Didn't seem right to me either. Pitt, don't worry about the red tape or corporate taxes here there's ways around all that stuff. I've been there and back (real estate fuckups) and going back in again. The thing here is you can go the work for someone, save, invest route or go in hard and make piles of cash hustling at your own gig. You just need to plant some roots and figure it out. I know dudes who have gotten rich off hot dog carts and others who are executives that trade penny stocks to buy beer on the weekend.

[Moma]

Pitt, I'll let you know how it unravels as I go there. We come from similar roots so I'll let you know.
Mechanic will be my big uncle and point me to the righteous waters.

Si, oncle?@El Mech

[Andy_B]

(07-22-2012 05:27 PM)johnwu Wrote:  

(07-22-2012 02:23 PM)Andy_B Wrote:  

It really depends on how you plan to become rich.

The basic economics of the U.S. are not really great for entrepreneurs, but certain cultural factors make it so that certain paths to getting rich are really only "doable" in the U.S. This runs counter to the commonsense about the U.S. economy, but the numbers seem to back it up.

Contrary to popular belief, the U.S. economy is not a low-tax small-government business-above-all-else oligarchy. In fact, it is about as "socialist" as any other developed country. Government spending in the U.S. is quite high (as a percentage of GDP, government spending is MUCH higher in the U.S. than in China), and corporate taxes are among the highest in the developed world. Further, the majority of government spending in the U.S. goes to the military, and there is relatively little in the way of business grants and other support programs like you find in, say, Australia.

So the U.S. is not really a good environment, fiscally, for starting a business in. If you want to do it as a corporation, you're facing the highest corporate tax rate in the OECD. If you want to be a solopreneur or freelancer, you're getting double taxed as a business AND an earner of personal income. As far as I can tell, the tax penalty for being self employed is higher in the U.S. than in other developed countries. In many countries, self employed people actually pay lower taxes than employees, after tax deductions are factored in. From what I gather, the opposite is true in the U.S.

And, there is the simple fact that U.S. citizens are just statistically less likely to rise in economic class compared to citizens of Western European countries. I'm too lazy to look like up right now, but it's well documented and highly publicized, so you can Google it and find it.

In spite of all that though, there are still some "soft" factors that make the U.S. one of the best countries for getting rich.

For one, the culture just generally values innovation, novelty and "ballsiness" more than any other country. As a rule, nobody will really give a shit if you're an entrepreneur in Canada or Western Europe, and you won't get much encouragement for it. In the U.S., it's generally thought that being an entrepreneur is something to aim for, which can create certain social incentives to do so.

For another, if you live in the U.S., you're just closer to trends that have started and have yet to crest. You're more exposed to the zeitgeist in tech, business, media, etc. This creates opportunities to invest early. The internet may have mitigated this somewhat, but it's still true to an extent.

Finally, there are just certain paths to wealth that exist in the U.S. that don't exist anywhere else. Take entertainment for example. Outside the U.S., movies just aren't that profitable of a business, and TV is often government-subsidized. In the U.S., this industry is actually a pretty decent path to making a living and even getting rich. The startup scene, too, is better in the U.S. than anywhere else. What countries other than the U.S. have web startups that anyone can name off the top of their head? Finland had Skype, Sweden had Spotify, but other than that? Nowhere else in the world is there a startup scene on the same level as the U.S.

So, in sum, the U.S. is not the best place in the world for any joe to seek his fortune, but it does have certain advantages and is furthermore basically the only real arena for becoming successful in certain areas.

This, right here gentlemen, is a fine specimen of internet bullshit.

You too, can be an expert on economies, with just a few simple steps!

First, start with a broad claim, that you will never actually talk about, and twist it with a lot of reference to numbers to make you seem right.

Then make another broad general claim, even though it is filled with incorrect information, don't worry, start talking about something completely unrelated but makes it seem important!

Then continue to spew incorrect information, because they've got to believe you're an expert by now.

For the coupe de grace, finish them off with a "simple fact" based on a statistic that you cannot be bothered to look up right now! In fact, throw in the link to the statistic if you have it, because golly we all know all statistics are not skewed in any way at all!

Repeat as needed.

OK, explain why.

My facts are definitely correct, so you need to point out the error in my reasoning.

[Cookie]

I'm going with a yes, but difficult. Both my parents own their own enterprises (my dad has his own architecture/construction firm and my mom has an organic farm). My dad's started his own business the year I was born and now, 19 years latter, it's pretty successful (granted he's not super rich, but he does have zero debt and can pay cash for basically any major purchase). My mom started her farm when I was like 14, and it too is now pretty successful (she's managed to market it well enough that it's products are sold throughout the Midwest).
From watching my parents I can say that it is a lot of hard work to break through, but it still is very possible.

[WestIndianArchie]

This has been studied extensively and it's on the news fairly often.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/har...rungs.html

It is a good country to become rich.
It's not the best or the easiest.

Stat wise, most of the world's new big fortunes are being made in the developing world.

[reaper23]

(07-23-2012 07:02 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

This has been studied extensively and it's on the news fairly often.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/har...rungs.html

It is a good country to become rich.
It's not the best or the easiest.

Stat wise, most of the world's new big fortunes are being made in the developing world.

that doesnt mean its not the easiest for the normal person.

in developing worlds you need power first, then the riches come.

here in the US you can get rich without having anything else other than an idea first

the question to talk about here is intellectual property rights and the US has some of the best if not the best in the world.

you want to get rich in china? better be tied in tight to the commies.

you want to get rich in russia? too late, the only guys who are going to get rich there already did.

in the US you're already starting at such a high floor that the leap from what is already one of the highest standards of living globally to a high standard of living in the US is not that high.

[Berliner]

[/b]Can I,can I?Thank you.Andy,you obviously don't know what you're talking about.I won't go into too much detail,quoting all the parts of your post,I'll just get to your conclusions.The 'entrepreneurial culture' you're talking about is only prominent in a very small part of the US.There are a lot of businesses that you don't read about in the news,entrepreneurs who don't give interviews every 2nd day,who make 10s of millions a year in the not so sexy industries.Regarding being closer to trends,that's bullshit again in 2012.A lot of trends in tech and other industries have come outside of the US.I can list you at least 5 examples of trends that have come out of the US and have been later adopted by American companies in the tech industry off the top of my head.Regarding investing,you do realize that joe can't just invest in whoever he wishes and the other person has to see joe as one with 'smart money' and one that has value outside of pure loan lender most of the times.Skype has nothing to do with Finland and actually came out of Estonia.Saying that there are not much successful 'startups' out of the US is just further proving your lack of knowledge

(07-22-2012 11:22 PM)Andy_B Wrote:  

(07-22-2012 05:27 PM)johnwu Wrote:  

(07-22-2012 02:23 PM)Andy_B Wrote:  

In spite of all that though, there are still some "soft" factors that make the U.S. one of the best countries for getting rich.

For one, the culture just generally values innovation, novelty and "ballsiness" more than any other country. As a rule, nobody will really give a shit if you're an entrepreneur in Canada or Western Europe, and you won't get much encouragement for it. In the U.S., it's generally thought that being an entrepreneur is something to aim for, which can create certain social incentives to do so.

For another, if you live in the U.S., you're just closer to trends that have started and have yet to crest. You're more exposed to the zeitgeist in tech, business, media, etc. This creates opportunities to invest early. The internet may have mitigated this somewhat, but it's still true to an extent.

Finally, there are just certain paths to wealth that exist in the U.S. that don't exist anywhere else. Take entertainment for example. Outside the U.S., movies just aren't that profitable of a business, and TV is often government-subsidized. In the U.S., this industry is actually a pretty decent path to making a living and even getting rich. The startup scene, too, is better in the U.S. than anywhere else. What countries other than the U.S. have web startups that anyone can name off the top of their head? Finland had Skype, Sweden had Spotify, but other than that? Nowhere else in the world is there a startup scene on the same level as the U.S.

So, in sum, the U.S. is not the best place in the world for any joe to seek his fortune, but it does have certain advantages and is furthermore basically the only real arena for becoming successful in certain areas.

This, right here gentlemen, is a fine specimen of internet bullshit.

You too, can be an expert on economies, with just a few simple steps!

First, start with a broad claim, that you will never actually talk about, and twist it with a lot of reference to numbers to make you seem right.

Then make another broad general claim, even though it is filled with incorrect information, don't worry, start talking about something completely unrelated but makes it seem important!

Then continue to spew incorrect information, because they've got to believe you're an expert by now.

For the coupe de grace, finish them off with a "simple fact" based on a statistic that you cannot be bothered to look up right now! In fact, throw in the link to the statistic if you have it, because golly we all know all statistics are not skewed in any way at all!

Repeat as needed.

OK, explain why.

My facts are definitely correct, so you need to point out the error in my reasoning.

[Berliner]

Pitt,I'd say the answer is "Yes,the US is a great place to get rich".However,you are asking a very broad question.Getting rich in which industry?The only specific thing about your post is too general itself:
"Is US the best place to start a business?"
That's as specific as:
"Is Europe the best place to work?"
When you are more specific and look at the upsides and downsides of doing X in Y country,compared to A,B,C countries,you weigh up the options and take a risk.If somebody tells you that after 10 years X country will surely be in certain state,he's obviously making stuff up.Nobody can know that.

[kosko]

Great Economists are filling up this form with that magic Economist talk.......

My view on America as a money factory begin a outsider I feel its legit somewhat. Of course Americans will vouch for their system because its all they know. They use the USA system internally and deal in a USA style system abroad.

In the developing world you can up your money 300% if you know what the fuck you are doing. You can't do that in America. The opputunities exist for quick gain and ruin in America but its in a muted more structured enviornmnet. Some may say that is a plus which I do agree with to an extent but dealing with the structure means you ahve to waste a lot of energy or time keeping your money from the State.

Then you really have to look at hard numbers. Having a million dollars in the USA 2012 is not "rich". Hell even banking 100K a year in these times is simply just middle class money. We have just been fooled into thinking that kind of money is a lot but those people whom have a million in the bank still have taxes and costs that eat away at a lot of their money.

You make a million dollars in a developing country and its a million fuck dollars. You will actually be able to see that money go as far as it should and then some.

If you look at the best performing economies of the lats 10 years few (if any) are in the traditional West and defently not the USA. You have spots like Angola and Kazakhstan which are rolling in money, with economies which are growing at robust levels.

So is the USA a great place to grind in a culture which pushes you to make something of yourself? .. Yes. No place is better

Is the USA a great place to become not rich .. but wealthy? ... No. There are many other better places.

[Deepdiver]

There is some wisdom that it takes a fast growing economy to create fast growing wealth:

http://www.businessinsider.com/fastest-g...013-1?op=1

Question is which ones can YOU live in, tolerate and have a DHV lifestyle in.

The ones on the list I like are Panama, Laos, Mongolia or even Uzbekistan (quite a few ethnic Russians so called traditional ladies).

Many fast growing economies in Africa but - do you want to live there? Perhaps better to live in a first world country and arbitrage opps in these rapidly growing but mostly third world places.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

Have no idea, but guarantee it's better than Croatia.

[SpecialEd]

For a 9-5'er, America is still probably one of the best countries. For an entrepreneur, I think the ship has sailed unless you're in IT. If you're earning your money off the web, there are much better places to be.

[The Beast1]

It's not easier in a less hurdles to jump kind of way.

If you have the right amount of courage, swag, knowledge, and ability to amass capital you can make it rich anywhere.

The US eroticizes it and makes the right personality push harder for it.

[Orion]

Since i didn't get rich in USA i'm maybe not qualified to answer, but one must give that much credit to USA, that it still is a land of opportunities, particularly to new comers. I've been in USA only for a W&T arrangement, but it took me couple of weeks upon landing, to get hooked up to all sorts of combinations - job offers, accommodation offers, fake green cards and social security numbers, everything one needs to settle his immigrant ass. I could find my country men in every province.

Hell, i have no idea why i came back home. Oh yes, studies.

[travolta]

The US had many disadvantages, but there are also many benefits that you can get that other countries don't. The best example I can think of is credit- it is REALLY easy to get new credit cards (assuming you have good credit) if you bank in the US. I can't go into details, but my extensive amounts of credit cards and benefits that I get from certain cards have directly helped me make a lot of my income over the past 2 years.

It's also pretty easy to do business with foreigners if you're American. Many foreign countries are willing to do business with American countries for some reason. In my industry I get a lot of opportunities that aren't as easy to come by for non-US based companies.

[TheChef]

Yes. I have Italian friends that always tell me that while running a business there the government rapes you with taxes and fines. A dude could walk over to your bar, pick out one thing, and fine you for a 100 Euros before lunch.

There's a lot of money in the U.S. Just find an industry with a good pile of it and dive in.

[Booyah]

US is overrated nowadays, it used to be much better 30 years ago but still if you're hardworking and you have your head screwed on, you can become wealthy easily.