[Lumpa]

edit: I thought I posted that in the newbie forum, can a mod move it? Thank you.

Hey everyone,

I've been a lurker on the forum for quite some time now, and I've learned a lot thanks to many of the contributors here, so I wanted to thank you first. I'm a 26 years old French guy and I've been living in the US for close to a year, working on an MBA. The sex market is brutal here, much harsher than in France. It's also compounded by the fact that I live in the Twin Cities, a place full of tall Scandinavian-looking guys and I'm your average middle-sized French guy. But I'm not here to complain about that.

I've started online dating a couple of weeks ago. I've read the main posts on that subject here and tried to apply the general principles I've learned while trying to remain congruent with who I am. I'm currently on POF and OKC. I've received a bunch of unprompted messages from fatties/ugly girls, but none from attractive ones. First weirdo I've encountered: that non-fat but ugly girl who messaged me twice on POF and then once on OKC with pretty much the same generic message every time. However, again, I'm not here to talk about that.

Right now, I am in contact with two girls from OKC, who seem interested. But their behavior confuses me. I know girls tend to behave even worst online than in real life so that doesn't surprise me. However, I would like to have your opinion/advices on the following:

First girl:
23 years old blonde, from her pictures she looks like she is a 6-7. She looks at my profile and rates it 4 or 5 stars. OKC sends me an e-mail to tell me she did. I message her and it goes back and forth for 5 messages where I tease her and awards her points for some of the things she says. Everything seems fine. She asks me how many points she needs to be able to meet me. I tell her I'll keep that secret for now. On the sixth message I tell her she's earned enough points to meet me (probably a mistake) and go for her number. No answer from her for 2 days, then she answers without even acknowledging the part about the number. I wait one day. Then I reply as if I didn't notice that she didn't give me her number, trying to set up a meeting day and time with her. Two days pass again and she mentions that she's busy the following week but will have the weekend entirely free.

I wait one day and tell her that I don't have time on Sunday, so we'll meet the following Saturday, late afternoon. I also tell her that she still hasn't given me her number and that I will text her with what she needs to know about where and when to meet on Friday night. Two days pass, once again, and she answers. She gives me her number while mentioning twice that I shouldn't hesitate to text her and tell her about my adventures (what am I, an entertainer?). I don't answer. The next day, the Friday right before we were supposed to meet, she messages me on OKC with some bullshit story about her friend having broken up with her boyfriend and begging her to spend the weekend with her. So, she can't make it. I don't answer.

On Sunday, I send her a text asking how her friend is doing and that I still don't know when I'll be able to reschedule because I'll be busy in the coming week (which is true but I would always find time if it was a sure thing). No reply from her until yesterday, that is the following Thursday. She replies on OKC, with a short message where she wonders if I am mad at her and repeats her story about her friend, adding that however strong a man I think I am, this could happen to me too. I haven't answered to that yet. I am thinking about saying that I am not mad and telling her that it's usually the person who canceled who has to make new plans. Keeping it very short. What would you go with?

Also, I still don't know if she received the text I sent on Sunday and if her number is legit. The way she mentions me being mad makes me think she hasn't received my text. I have double-checked, I have sent the text at the right number.

Second girl:
24 years old redhead, from her pictures she could be anywhere between 5 and 7. I message her asking a question about one of her pictures. She answers with an interesting, relatively long (by dating sites standards), message. She seems pretty interested. This goes back and forth, half a day max between each message, everything seems fine. Then, like with the other one, I try to set up something so that we meet, saying I'm very busy right now but will have time starting next Sunday. She stops answering. Four days later, that is today, I receive a very short message from her, where she doesn't acknowledge me trying to set up plans to meet her. In the message, she asks me to answer a question I asked her previously about what I would choose if I had the opportunity to have one wish come true. She also asks a similar question about what I would choose if I could be awesome at one thing. Any idea as to what kind of answer I should provide?

Sorry for the size of the post, I just wanted to be comprehensive. And thanks in advance for your help.

[Veloce]

This might seem counterintuitive, but before you start with online gaming, I would HIGHLY suggest you take the hard and painful route of night gaming and day gaming.

Because here's the thing, I think it'll be easier than online gaming.

You're already in a complicated situation that wouldn't even happen in real life: some girl thinking you're mad (she's probably antisocial) and you in a position where you have to work around that, and another girl that you're worried about saying the right thing to. You're going to have a hard time getting the vets on this board to take those questions seriously I think.

I can't imagine what it'd be like coming here from another country and you're not even a year in, I'm sure it's very difficult and you'll learn a lot about American women, but let me tell you that, at least in Los Angeles, your French accent and culture would get you VERY far in 90% of bars. If you went through the motions and worked on your solo game you could be swimming in pussy and laugh at the prospect of online gaming ever again, and just use it as a supplement as many of the forum members do.

Do yourself a favor and follow Roosh's guidelines. Read Bang. Get your 100 approaches out of the way. Then come back and start asking about how to deal with online hamster bullshit.

[babelfish669]

Online dating, your going to land girls 1, 2, 3 or more points below what you should be getting.

I can get 8s in person, online a few messages from girls that look like goblins. I have a friend, completely outside of the community, who does fine online. He's 6'5" and blonde. The girls he gets are significantly lower than he should be landing. They are lower than I land myself.

By being up in Minnesota you might be even more disadvantaged than normal.

That's issue one. Issue two is that your putting way to much thought in to it. Until you've seen a girl in person, the amount of emotional energy you put in to it should not have even motivated you enough to make a post of this length. Think about how much time each girl has spent so far to respond to you online. That's how much time in your brain you should allocate to them, because its very likely that's how much they've thought about it.

[WesternCancer]

to add to babelfish. when you do message a girl and she agrees with a date but is an '8' or a higher rank than what you are used to online you immediately wonder if shes real or if there is something extremely wrong with her.

[plague]

this is not weird behavior. this is standard behavior.

I think online game is fine, but I agree with babelfish that you are putting way too much thought and energy into it.

here is my experience: the times I have banged girls who I met online, we sent ~3 messages back and forth and then met up in person with no cancellations or flakes. any time the girl has cancelled or taken a long time to message back, it never results in anything. we reschedule but she just cancels again. at any sign of the girl pulling away or flaking, just forget she exists and move on. with all of the time you've spent dealing with this one girl's bullshit you could have been talking with 5 other girls (either online or in person) who might have an actual interest in having sex with you.

[Lumpa]

Thanks for the good advice guys. I'm in self-improvement mode right now. I've lost 20 pounds in the past 3 months, from almost 200 to 178 (90kg to 80kg). I'm working out three times a week and doing one hour of cardio almost every day. I'm starting to look good, even though I still need to lose 10 or 20 more pounds of fat (I'm 5'8 or 173cm). I am going to get a copy of Bang. I've been thinking about reading it for some time. I am reading Starting Strength right now, which is a great resource to learn how to properly work out. I would also advise anyone thinking about losing fat and gaining muscles to read Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle. This book changed my life and I wouldn't have made such progress without it.

The next step is real pick-up. I wanted to take it easy and start slowly with online dating, but you're probably right about starting with the real thing immediately.

[scorpio]

(05-11-2012 04:38 PM)Lumpa Wrote:  

The sex market is brutal here, much harsher than in France.

Right now, I am in contact with two girls from OKC, who seem interested. But their behavior confuses me.

lol. I appreciate your honest cross-cultural assessment. American and Canadian women are a different breed. They are the worst and most difficult women on the planet to tolerate, period. Why? Many reasons that are too long to list.

I think you got further ahead with these bitches than the typical guy would. Congratulations, I guess? Not only that, this is how these girls can act even if you met them offline.

The big question is whether it would be worth the effort to game North American women from an ROI basis. If you think about it, you will pick up bad dating habits that won't translate well when you return to your country.

There is a price to bottom-feeding, you know.

[Veloce]

Trial by fire, my friend. Take the training wheels off, get rid of the mental safety net, and go get rejected.

[haywire]

A few things important things about online dating that I've learned from experience:

- There will be countless flakes but there will be countless opportunities to score as well, don't focus on just one blond and one redhead. Mass message like a mofo, out of which you'll get a 20-30% reply back rate and maybe 10-20% will be willing to meet you without much tantrums. Blasting the same message to 20 girls would hardly take more than 5-7 minutes.

- Work on a system that suits your personality. Keep changing your messages, pics, profile content till you find what's working for you. It will take time and some hit and trial, till you figure it out. Once you have that down, online dating can be nothing short of a goldmine.

- 18-25 is the hardest zone to crack for the simple reasons of demand and supply, so focus on older chicks if you don't mind banging them. Game playing, tantrums, flakiness go substantially downwards after 35.

- Don't wait for more than 2-4 back-and-forths to go for the number. If she shows reluctance, she's not serious about meeting up.

As a side note, don't ever show emotions to women - you'll be considered weak, and don't use texting for anything other than logistical planning. Don't get into a banter unless she initiates it and keep your replies low-risk.

[LowerCaseG]

I disagree with the "try real game first" posts and agree with plague. I have found online dating to be a perfect niche market for me and it may be for you too.
-Ask for her number withing the first say, 4 contacts. If she is reluctant to give you her #, she is certainly not going to meet you. If you are IMing give yourself a 20 minute limit or so.
-Flakes are part of the cost of doing business. Once she flakes do not contact her again.
-Both of the girls you talk about lack continuity with too long of a delay between messages. If a meeting seems doubtful, go ahead and throw out a pleasant ultimatum. "You seem nice, but I am really looking to meet someone in person..."
18-25 chicks are ultra flakey. I feel like older guys, say 28-36 have a better chance with them. I'm 35 and have best luck with 20-25 yo girls.

[Screwston]

Online game is a completely different beast than the real world. Just check out the Online Hamster thread in Everything Else. If you really want to do it though, talk to haywire. He knows what he's doing.

[SVK]

Online game in America is really fucked up, I wouldn't read into it at all. You need to really approach it scientifically and without any emotions or expectations to get results. Best IME is some kind of shotgun approach, having a proven generic opener, good profile and good pictures, and mass mailing (be careful not to get banned). Def don't waste too much time on it though, develop automated proven process. Look through the threads here for good tips.

But foremost I agree with others you should focus on the real life game as your results should be better AND it will help you improve (sitting in front of your computer won't improve jack shit). You are French, many American girls have fetish for Euro's and especially French, if you have cool accent you will do good. This is something that is hard to sell in an online profile. Develop a niche, a unique style, work on your game and you should be golden. Treat online only as second rate supplement that if it yields something then good but def don't rely on it. Experiment with it and you may see good results, some guys do. But you WILL need game once you meet the girls anyway so focusing primarily on that is a win-win situation.

[Lumpa]

Some news: It's dead with blonde girl, she seemed like a low self-esteem pain in the ass anyway. I have started messaging other girls, got one response so far, hopefully more tonight.

I went out with redhead Tuesday night. She looks better in real life than on her pictures, an easy 7, not far from 8. I was nicely surprised. And just my type, smaller than me even with heels on. The night went well, after we bounced to a lounge bar she sat very close to me on a small couch and kept slightly touching me with her leg. The conversation was great, she's a fun girl. I was pretty good I think. Relaxed, not needy, in charge. The only (and big) problem is that I didn't escalate enough. I could have kissed her but chickened out (I know, shame on me).

I told her about digit ratio and it happens that she's got a masculine one. I acted as though it was funny but nothing more. It seems to have been some kind of hardcore neg though. She texted me the next day saying that she keeps checking out her hands. We exchanged some flirty banter back and forth. No text exchanges yesterday. I'm planning on texting her tonight to see if she's available Sunday night. This time I will escalate, hard.

[Hades]

I haven't read your thread. However, I live near the Twin Cities and am a tall Scandinavian dude. I assure you that 90% of my brethren are very beta.

My advice for you as a Frenchman is to play up your foreign side. Wear a scarf and one of those odd hats, exaggerate your accent, and use shamelessly direct game. As long as you look interesting, being short is not a disadvantage.
Also I think that online game is a bad idea. Why don't you go to the bars and coffeeshops and try to find women?