[MHaes]

Hey all,

I need some advice. I'm about to make a decision that will affect me for the rest of my life. Hopefully some of you will be able to help me sprt through this and the effects it could have on my life.

I'm 18 years ol, senior in high school. Like most 18 year olds, college is looming, and I'm excited about it. I know that I'm going to Virginia Tech, to study engineering. Virginia Tech is a great school, especially for engineering.

My problems come with paying for college. My parents can't pay for me. Not because we are poor, but because I have three younger siblings who are all going to be going off to college within two years of each other, and they would like to have the option to help them out. Sucks for me, but whatever.

Obviously, I applied for every scholarship I could think of. One of these happened to be the ROTC (military) scholarship. For two years back when I was like twelve I used to dream about being an officer in the military, but now that I actually have the opportunity I am thinking about what could happen if I am an officer. If we are in a war when I graduate...well, there's alot of possibilities.

The package is great. Full ride, full medical, etc. $300 per month starting freshman year, and it goes up by $50 each year. I get full pay if take place in any summer training. I have a guaranteed job right out of college, a job that has great benefits. Travel.

I'm not really sure what my question is. Maybe I'm just venting. I guess I just want to talk to somone about it, and hear others perspectives. I've tried talking to my friends about it, but they all just say shit like "Holy shit you're gonna get so big and learn how to kick peoples asses!!!" or "Damn dude, are you gonna try to be a sniper or something?" It's amusing to hear, but not exactly what I'm looking for at this point.

[Menace]

This sounds like a good opportunity. Do not underestimate the impact of not having student debt. In-state tuition looks to be about $17K for 2012, and will likely go up 5-6% per year. So you're looking at about $80K of tuition debt alone without even considering any money you may borrow for room & board, etc.

What job would you hypothetically get out of school? Get the salary, assume a 25% tax rate, and see how much of your after tax income will be consumed by debt payment. It's significant. It will hinder your ability to save for a house/condo/etc.

There are additional benefits to being military, including security clearance (depending on what you do), which someone who's been in can speak to, I'm sure. Your commitment is 4 years active and 4 years IRR based on the ROTC website. You could die if you were called for combat. What are your non-military options?

[mofo]

Why do you want to study engineering? Why do you want to go to college? What are your long term goals?

[MHaes]

(04-19-2012 10:56 AM)Menace Wrote:  

This sounds like a good opportunity. Do not underestimate the impact of not having student debt. In-state tuition looks to be about $17K for 2012, and will likely go up 5-6% per year. So you're looking at about $80K of tuition debt alone without even considering any money you may borrow for room & board, etc.

What job would you hypothetically get out of school? Get the salary, assume a 25% tax rate, and see how much of your after tax income will be consumed by debt payment. It's significant. It will hinder your ability to save for a house/condo/etc.

There are additional benefits to being military, including security clearance (depending on what you do), which someone who's been in can speak to, I'm sure. Your commitment is 4 years active and 4 years IRR based on the ROTC website. You could die if you were called for combat. What are your non-military options?

If I don't do ROTC I would try to get on as a Petroleum Engineer. They make about $115k with an undergrad degree, so after taxes I would have ~$85,000. My monthly student loan payments after I graduate would be around $800. Wow. That's a lot of money.

My non military options would be loans on top of the $8000 I got in merit/aid.

Yeah, I definitely know that financially ROTC is the right decision, for sure. Thanks.

[Cr33pin]

Va tech is great, my sister graduated from there in the same class an mike vick. Blacksburg is a awesome town.

Seems like your out of options for paying for tuition. If Va Tech is really where you wanna go the military may be your only option. Its good for paying for your school an looks good on your resume later in life.... i say go for it... ofcourse when i joined years ago there was no war going on

[MHaes]

(04-19-2012 11:04 AM)mofo Wrote:  

Why do you want to study engineering? Why do you want to go to college? What are your long term goals?

I want to study engineering because it's what I'm good at. Math and science stuff. But all the other careers in STEM fields seem rather narrow in range of jobs. With an Eng degree, I could do a lot of different, but all fascinating things, in a wide range of careers.

I would like to own at least two different properties outside the US when I'm older, and split my time between abroad and here in the US. I don't want to be working past the age of 42. I figure that if I draw a decent income right out of college, plunge most of it into a 401k, and make some smart investments coupled with a fat salary due to growing demand for engineers that I can make this a possibility.

[joehoya]

Back when I was in undergrad, the way ROTC worked was you got the scholarship and you had NO OBLIGATION for the first 2 years. You still had to go to drill and take your military science classes, but you weren't under any service contract after you graduated.

A lot of guys I know did it for the first 2 years with the full intention of dropping it after those two years with no military obligation. Many of them wound up staying in ROTC and doing military service because they liked it, but some just took the money and did not continue after 2 years with no hard feelings from ROTC.

Personally, one of my biggest regrets from college was not staying in ROTC (I did 1 year) and having the opportunity to serve my country. I am considering going through the direct commission program in the Navy next to become a Naval Reserve officer.

[mofo]

(04-19-2012 11:27 AM)MHaes Wrote:  

(04-19-2012 11:04 AM)mofo Wrote:  

Why do you want to study engineering? Why do you want to go to college? What are your long term goals?

I want to study engineering because it's what I'm good at. Math and science stuff. But all the other careers in STEM fields seem rather narrow in range of jobs. With an Eng degree, I could do a lot of different, but all fascinating things, in a wide range of careers.

I would like to own at least two different properties outside the US when I'm older, and split my time between abroad and here in the US. I don't want to be working past the age of 42. I figure that if I draw a decent income right out of college, plunge most of it into a 401k, and make some smart investments coupled with a fat salary due to growing demand for engineers that I can make this a possibility.

Are you passionate about engineering?

[WestIndianArchie]

1) Don't go to the military - you'll get killed or worse, maimed. Better to be dead than living your life with no legs or a face burned off. You can work out and learn to fight w/o all that comes with it.

2) Don't go to college - you'll waste lots of time and money.

It's good for meeting chicks though. Some people even have new ideas and new thoughts, but for the most part, college only confirms what people already believe. Go in liberal, come out liberal. Go in conservative, come out conservative. Plenty of people on this board are college educated, and are as dumb as rocks, unable to keep 2 contradictory ideas in their mind.

3) Don't go into engineering - no chicks, and you won't have time to date chicks not in your classes.

There's even less long term stability in the STEM fields, despite what people tell you. Companies don't want to train and only want to hire the best of the best. And when they get acquired/downsize, you can be too expensive or to specialized for the next company to hire you. And lol @ consulting.

I've known lots of out of work engineers and scientists. Indeed, even at engineering/science firms, it's the business/accountant/sales guys that get into management and make the big money off of the work of the engineers. Money + Power = Alpha.

If you do have to do the college thing
- learn another language FLUENTLY
- travel

The economy is globalizing, and speaking Korean, Japanese, any of the Major Chinese languages, Portuguese, Russian, et cetera will put you far ahead of anyone else.

You can work for American companies trying to break into those markets, or foreign companies breaking into the American market.

And if you're sharp, you'll realize that the people you work for are typically dumber than you are. You'll realize your intelligence is stopping you from running your own shop.

WIA

[MikeCF]

I was a commissioned Army Officer.

I was in the Army Reserves. Graduated with no student loans, got a big GI Bill check, and had some good times.

You'd be on active duty, with all the attendant risks.

If you're still able to back out after 2 years without having to pay them back, then joining would be a good decision.

[MikeCF]

If you're smart enough, get a job in computer science/learn to program.

"There are no jobs" in STEM.

LMAO.

How many IPOs have there been?

How many new millionaires are there these past couple of years from the IPOs?

STEM majors, mostly.

[OGNorCal707]

Personally, I think you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.

The military doesn't appeal to me at all, I wouldn't want to be a pawn in some bullshit war I don't believe in. Also, I'm the kind of guy who's got to live by my own rules, I can't be having someone tell me what to do, what to wear, when to sleep, there's something to be said for discipline, but I don't like taking orders, if anything I want to be the one giving them.

But, if you don't do ROTC, and get student loans you're still fucked. Question is, which is worse, being a slave to the military, or being a slave to student loan debt?

[Keyser Söze]

Fuck the military. Read my signature line. It's all a bunch of bull shit. You could lose you life or become maimed because some half whit in the white house, who doesn't give a flying fuck about you, wants to secure some oil supplies or a new shipping lane.

Look out for yourself. Become a Petroleum Engineer, but try to make time for entrepreneur stuff while in college. You will have an ample amount of capital from your first job, and will be able to live however you damn please if you have some decent business instincts and internalize the lessons of the 4HWW amoung other sources.

Don't piss it all away being a beta in the military. Yes, I say that. You do what you are told in the military, when you are told it, even if you will die. In no way do you get to pursue what is the best for you as an individual which is in my opinion the whole point of game and being alpha.

[trey]

I would suggest that if you squeeze all you can out of your college, the debt isn't that serious.

This means aggressively building a network in your desired field(s) from day one. If Va Tech is a good engineering school, and you want to be an engineer, then the potential network you could come away with after four years of building it will leave you with a wide range of good opportunities post-graduation. Study hard, network hard, and do internships (ideally paid so you can start chipping away at the debt, but don't overlook good opportunities because they are unpaid).

Scholarships will continue to be available to you as you go along too - so if you excel academically in your first few years you might be able to get the second few paid for, etc.

Also build your personal, non-work network - ie have fun making new friends in college. Not being ROTC will probably leave you a lot more time to do that. The advice re: learning a language fluently is very good as well.

[Aliblahba]

Mhaes- I'll be stateside from my final deployment soon, and will PM my number upon touching down stateside. If you wanna meet up in the Norfolk area let me know, and I'll change my flight path.

All branches have their perks, but just remember what the Army really stands for:

Ain't
Really
Marines
Yet

[Menace]

Foreign language ability is usually a plus factor, not a determinant of hiring.

Anyway, you can plan things out, using hard numbers, with a fair amount of certainty. You should do so. If you're a pet eng. you may be stationed overseas for the company, in which case they are providing you with food and accommodations, etc. Your living expenses will be minimal. While stateside, reside in low cost of living locations, like Florida (bonus: hot girls and nice weather). If you save aggressively, don't buy frivolous stuff, you might be able to make short work of the debt.

[Kona]

It sounds like you got your mind made up Mhaes.

Here's two pieces of advice of the top of my head:

1) START RUNNING HILLS!!!!!

2) When it's time to get out, think long and hard about it. I've been missing the hell out of the Navy. It's almost 100% impossible for me to get back in, regardless of my record. They are something like 150% staffed right now.

Beyond what ever it is you want to do, you are gonna learn all kinds of crazy skills in the military that most people don't know a thing about.

Take the guy's advice about another language. Qualifying on a foreign language gives you a lot of options once you're in. Keep that in mind.

Don't listen to the guy that says "Fuck the military, follow the teachings of the four hour work week" that's hilarious!

Aloha!

[Aliblahba]

(04-19-2012 10:15 PM)Kona Wrote:  

It sounds like you got your mind made up Mhaes.

Here's two pieces of advice of the top of my head:

1) START RUNNING HILLS!!!!!

2) When it's time to get out, think long and hard about it. I've been missing the hell out of the Navy. It's almost 100% impossible for me to get back in, regardless of my record. They are something like 150% staffed right now.

Beyond what ever it is you want to do, you are gonna learn all kinds of crazy skills in the military that most people don't know a thing about.

Take the guy's advice about another language. Qualifying on a foreign language gives you a lot of options once you're in. Keep that in mind.

Don't listen to the guy that says "Fuck the military, follow the teachings of the four hour work week" that's hilarious!

Aloha!

I second that. SO glad society is churning out betas. It makes life easier, from getting pussy, to smashing job interviews.

[Deluge]

Not going to college to start a business instead is fundamentally stupid. If you fail you have no backup. If you're young and entrepreneurial you have to study while you run your business just in case everything goes wrong. Lastly, he wants to study Engineering and expressed no interest in NOT doing so. So there is no need to try and convince him to do something that he doesn't want to do.

[Arcais]

If you can stand getting vaccinated by MERCK poisons, go for it.

I dropped out of Army ROTC because you have no freedom to make decisions.

I've been to jail, and I've been in the military, and let me tell you that the food is the same quality. The water they give you tastes like lead and chlorine. The food the give you is filled with soy and hydrogenated vegetable oil. If you don't mind taking some DNA damage from these items, fucking do it. Nothing is worse that debt that you can't pay off.

Either option seems bad to me.

Start a biz.

[Aliblahba]

I'm deployed right now, and last night I had:

Fresh bowl of salad
1- grilled cheese sammich
1- serving baked potato wedges
1- slice meatloaf
1- bottle of tasteless, filtered H2O

This morning:

1-serving homemade quiche
1- bowl real oatmeal w/ brown sugar and a touch of maple syrup
1- milk
1- cup of coffee (won't defend this, it'll strip paint)


Seemed pretty healthy to me. But what do I know?

As an NCO, I made a lot of decisions, because I wasn't an idiot. Those sorts are shuffled to bullshit billets and not allowed to do anything important. So the moral of the story is....wait for it....don't be an idiot.

[tallglassofmilk]

I almost went a route similar to the one you are considering. I also have a couple of really good friends who went Army ROTC. So let me give you my couple of cents on the matter.

So the first question I have for you is, do you want to be a project manager type person (that is the person who justifies all the work, does the paper work, takes responsibility, etc.) or normal worker type person (the person who actual runs the experiments, builds the prototypes)? If you prefer to be in charge, the ROTC route might be good for you. I would suggest against Army ROTC if you can get into Navy or AirForce, but then again I don't know you that well. The reason I don't suggest the Army is that almost all of its positions are combat positions, as opposed to the air force and some of the navy nuke positions. As far as ROTC goes, you have to give up one afternoon a week for class, but wake up every morning at 6 to do PT, and a couple of weekends a year for training exercise. Not too bad of a gig for full tuition, plus you can always end up going to the reserves instead of active duty if you want.

The Navy and the Airforce each have special programs for college kids outside of ROTC for their special needs. In the air force it is electrical and computer engineers, in the navy it is the navy nuke program (for STEM majors). You can google the navy nuke program there is lots of good information on it. I believe both of these programs start 30 months from graduation at the earliest, so you would have to find your own money for the first 3 semesters then you can hop on military gravy train on to the order of full tuition + 36k/year (I believe it covers tution in both cases, not positive). Even if it doesn't that is still an extra 10 grand a year over full tuition rates that you can save or burn Also those 3 years while in school count towards retirement and pay (as opposed to ROTC which doesn't). In fact you are enlisted, E-6. Additionally you don't have to deal with being in the military bullshit that ROTC people have to. You simply have to make good grades and pass your physical fitness test twice a year.

Anyways, I would suggest contacting an officer recruiter from the air force and navy nuke to get more information on those paths. Navy Nuke is very difficult to get into and you end up paying for all that free money they gave you in college when you start working. If you have anymore questions, feel free to ask me, but I only get on here once a week to once every other week, so it might take some time for me to respond.

Remember what they say about military life, get everything you can from it (benefits etc.) because they are going to take everything they can from you.

TGOM

[Aliblahba]

There's a lot of paths you can take Mhaes. Here's one that still inspires me:

http://www.communityadvocate.com/2012/03...lfillment/

There's a lot to be taken from his story.

[Spartan]

(04-19-2012 10:38 AM)MHaes Wrote:  

Hey all,

I need some advice. I'm about to make a decision that will affect me for the rest of my life. Hopefully some of you will be able to help me sprt through this and the effects it could have on my life.

I'm 18 years ol, senior in high school. Like most 18 year olds, college is looming, and I'm excited about it. I know that I'm going to Virginia Tech, to study engineering. Virginia Tech is a great school, especially for engineering.

My problems come with paying for college. My parents can't pay for me. Not because we are poor, but because I have three younger siblings who are all going to be going off to college within two years of each other, and they would like to have the option to help them out. Sucks for me, but whatever.

Obviously, I applied for every scholarship I could think of. One of these happened to be the ROTC (military) scholarship. For two years back when I was like twelve I used to dream about being an officer in the military, but now that I actually have the opportunity I am thinking about what could happen if I am an officer. If we are in a war when I graduate...well, there's alot of possibilities.

The package is great. Full ride, full medical, etc. $300 per month starting freshman year, and it goes up by $50 each year. I get full pay if take place in any summer training. I have a guaranteed job right out of college, a job that has great benefits. Travel.

I'm not really sure what my question is. Maybe I'm just venting. I guess I just want to talk to somone about it, and hear others perspectives. I've tried talking to my friends about it, but they all just say shit like "Holy shit you're gonna get so big and learn how to kick peoples asses!!!" or "Damn dude, are you gonna try to be a sniper or something?" It's amusing to hear, but not exactly what I'm looking for at this point.

As an Engineer...try for Air Force ROTC, you'll fit in a lot better there and it will advance future career prospects( post military)

Most officers with Engineering backgrounds will not be put in combat positions.

[Keyser Söze]

I never said he should forego college.

My opinion is that an engineering degree and a private sector petroleum job is the best option. However, along the way, he should try and nurture some business instincts (and that the 4HWW was one possible source for information), so that as his bank account starts to grow he can figure out how to make his money and by extension other people, work for him.

If you like being told what to do, and enjoy group showers, gladiator fights, turkish prisons, circle jerks, and killing brown skinned people, mixed in with a dash of sadism and the possibility of death/injury, then sign up for the military.

If you are in the US military, realize that you are a mercenary, and a very poorly paid one. You will be sent off to fight wars of conquest thousands of miles from where you were born. You will not be defending your country. You will be looking for oil while contractors steal from the american taxpayers. You will be guarding some shithole building in Kabul, making 20K a year while some blackwater guy doing the same thing clears 150K.

But fuck both of those guys. You will, by your early 30s if you play it right, be free of debt, have large cash reserves, and a couple of income streams that allow you to do what you want when you want.