[Hencredible Casanova]

Hey one of my good buddies is down in Buenos Aires. It's a world of a difference from when I was there in 2010. Inflation has shot up crazy. The exchange rate is still the same; it's just that everything is much more expensive now. Utilities have shot up 300% and that has affected other prices, like food, which has risen by over 50%.

Case in point, I spent my birthday back in 2010 at one of Buenos Aires' top restaurants, La Cabrera. Believe it or not, I spent $30 USD on my birthday meal, which involved breaded olives (appetizer), kobe beef steak (main dish) with a serving of potatoes, etc. Also, a bottle of Trapiche Malbec just for me.

My boy went out with some friends yesterday to a lesser quality restaurant. He only got a couple of entrees (no main course), and shared a bottle of wine with others. The price came out to $40 each.

I'm simply shocked. Given how favorable the prices were at the time I was there, the image of Argentina being Europe on a budget has always been etched into my mind. That's the reason why it was almost neck and neck with Brazil as being my favorite South American country. It's hard for me to reconcile that with what I'm hearing now. This sucks.

[solo]

Yeah this is what I've heard from several people too. I was there for 5 months in 2005 and things were pretty cheap back then. The thing is, Argentina was this expensive before the economic crash in the early 00's too, after which everything became almost dirt cheap. But historically the country has been notorious for its high inflation rate.

I agree it sucks. I'm thinking of actually moving back to Argentina to live there for a longer period of time and have it as my "base", but now I might have to wait until prices drop or I sort out my personal finances and start having a consistent income.

What I don't get though is how the locals survive there if it's expensive even for us foreigners. I know there are a lot of rich people in Argentina, but the vast majority at least is not richer than the average expat. What is driving the inflation and who is getting richer from it (it can't be a case where everybody looses)? Normally wages while rise with the inflation of prices but this doesn't seem to be the case.

[Mr.GM]

Argentina from what I heard is in a serious economic crisis. Add this with a populist-chavist president (Cristina) and there you go. Inflation peaking like crazy,old recipe for disaster in Latin America.

And they are trying to revive that bullshit about the falkland Islands, what a shitty country to be right now. The girls are still hot though.

[Amour Fou]

This pisses me off. Argentina is such a great country, some of our coolest neighbours here, and they are always finding themselves in an economical mess.

[The_CEO]

I was just talking with someone about this today. It is vastly more expensive than in 2005 and noticeably more expensive than a year ago. It's no longer the cheap base it once was. There are a ton of Brazilian tourists there now and I sort of suspect that has driven up apartment prices on the temporary rentals (in addition to higher utilities, etc).

[Soma]

For an understanding of what is going on with the economy and inflation now I'd recommend starting with these from the Economist:

Argentina's Inflation Problem: The price of cooking the books
Official Statistics: Don’t lie to me, Argentina
Argentina's Economy: Piggy bank

The government is, yet again, ignoring all basic economic lessons and pursuing expansionary policies at all costs, resulting in an extremely overheating economy and consequently rampant inflation. There are huge economic imbalances building up and, if you wait another 5 years or so, this is all likely to end in tears again. Think a currency crash (again,) banking system collapse (again,) wiping out the middle class (again,) riots in the streets (again,) etc. The government has completely eliminated any modicum of independence from the central bank and takes/steals/prints money from it at will. Nobody trusts the Argentine peso (rightfully so!) and so what does the government do? Make it hard if not impossible to sell your pesos to buy dollars. That'll certainly inspire more confidence in the currency. Once faith is lost in a fiat currency it's all downhill from there. Few investors or companies want to invest capital in the country, exacerbating the overheating problem, because they're mistrustful of the political situation and since official inflation is about 20% less than real inflation, they know they'll never be able to get their money back, let alone make a profit.

I could go on and on; having lived there recently it's quite sad and frustrating to watch this slow-motion train wreck.

[Deluge]

When Argentina melts down in 5 years or whatever, I'll be location independent. Dive in right after the violence dies off and start fucking balling. Whose with me?

[GiovanniRio]

(04-03-2012 12:56 AM)P Dog Wrote:  

When Argentina melts down in 5 years or whatever, I'll be location independent. Dive in right after the violence dies off and start fucking balling. Whose with me?

I love it when countries go into failure. It gives opportunities to invest, where it wasn't interesting before.

A friend of mine bought a Miami condo a while ago at prices I saw as impossible before . Looks like the same is going to happen with Argentina, and on a lower scale with some areas in Brazil.

[pitt]

Let their inflation go up, let their unemployment rate rise, as economical things worsen in Argentina, the women will become easier. Will Argentina be the new DR?

[Deluge]

(04-03-2012 03:43 AM)pitt Wrote:  

Let their inflation go up, let their unemployment rate rise, as economical things worsen in Argentina, the women will become easier. Will Argentina be the new DR?

Argentina's already one of the worst off Western/White countries, at least outside of the former Soviet Union. Also, I know that when a countries economy is doing well, skirt lengths become shorter. The Roaring Twenties and the revolution of the 60's both occurred under economic booms in the States. I doubt a meltdown in Argentina will make things any easier, at least for Argentine guys making Argentine money living there. Could be different story for expats who'll enjoy far greater economic power.

[Hencredible Casanova]

(04-03-2012 03:43 AM)pitt Wrote:  

Let their inflation go up, let their unemployment rate rise, as economical things worsen in Argentina, the women will become easier. Will Argentina be the new DR?

Nah man. Argentine women aren't like that.

[Hencredible Casanova]

(04-02-2012 08:12 PM)solo Wrote:  

Yeah this is what I've heard from several people too. I was there for 5 months in 2005 and things were pretty cheap back then. The thing is, Argentina was this expensive before the economic crash in the early 00's too, after which everything became almost dirt cheap. But historically the country has been notorious for its high inflation rate.

I agree it sucks. I'm thinking of actually moving back to Argentina to live there for a longer period of time and have it as my "base", but now I might have to wait until prices drop or I sort out my personal finances and start having a consistent income.

What I don't get though is how the locals survive there if it's expensive even for us foreigners. I know there are a lot of rich people in Argentina, but the vast majority at least is not richer than the average expat. What is driving the inflation and who is getting richer from it (it can't be a case where everybody looses)? Normally wages while rise with the inflation of prices but this doesn't seem to be the case.

Very good post. I ask those same questions myself. I had also considered Argentina as the ideal base for a location independent lifestyle. But with this rampant inflation I'm not too convinced anymore. Even worse, if prices there revert back to "pre-crash" levels, there won't be a point to operating out of there. Buenos Aires is a beautiful city, but what made it special was the bang for the buck.

[Hencredible Casanova]

(04-03-2012 12:28 AM)Soma Wrote:  

For an understanding of what is going on with the economy and inflation now I'd recommend starting with these from the Economist:

Argentina's Inflation Problem: The price of cooking the books
Official Statistics: Don’t lie to me, Argentina
Argentina's Economy: Piggy bank

The government is, yet again, ignoring all basic economic lessons and pursuing expansionary policies at all costs, resulting in an extremely overheating economy and consequently rampant inflation. There are huge economic imbalances building up and, if you wait another 5 years or so, this is all likely to end in tears again. Think a currency crash (again,) banking system collapse (again,) wiping out the middle class (again,) riots in the streets (again,) etc. The government has completely eliminated any modicum of independence from the central bank and takes/steals/prints money from it at will. Nobody trusts the Argentine peso (rightfully so!) and so what does the government do? Make it hard if not impossible to sell your pesos to buy dollars. That'll certainly inspire more confidence in the currency. Once faith is lost in a fiat currency it's all downhill from there. Few investors or companies want to invest capital in the country, exacerbating the overheating problem, because they're mistrustful of the political situation and since official inflation is about 20% less than real inflation, they know they'll never be able to get their money back, let alone make a profit.

I could go on and on; having lived there recently it's quite sad and frustrating to watch this slow-motion train wreck.

The Economist is a good publication but they've always had a bias when it comes to Argentina. Those writers don't seem to be too fond of the country and its leaders. I've never seen a "good" article about Argentina from The Economist. Even during its economic growth, they found a way to dampen the news.

[Hencredible Casanova]

(04-02-2012 08:28 PM)Mr.GM Wrote:  

And they are trying to revive that bullshit about the falkland Islands, what a shitty country to be right now. The girls are still hot though.

There's a potential oil windfall off the coast of the Falklands. I think that's what it's all about. I don't see Argentina winning that battle though. All of the Falkland Islanders are British descendants and they understandably want to remain British.

[Lumiere]

I used to live in BsAs when it was cheap (2007-8)

Even going back there a year or two later the prices of many things was literally double

Oh well at least I got to enjoy it while it was cheap

[The_CEO]

As far as the question about how do locals afford it... The domestic economy has experienced substantial growth over the last few years and also made out well selling soy and other commodities to China.
The govt is starting to get rid of subsidies now and that is also making things more expensive.

[Lumiere]

(04-03-2012 04:32 AM)The_CEO Wrote:  

As far as the question about how do locals afford it... The domestic economy has experienced substantial growth over the last few years and also made out well selling soy and other commodities to China.

None of which will mean anything when the shit hits the fan.

Argentina's economy is a total basket case. They have a financial meltdown once every 10-12 years and then are heading towards another one right now.

[The_CEO]

(04-03-2012 04:41 AM)Lumiere Wrote:  

(04-03-2012 04:32 AM)The_CEO Wrote:  

As far as the question about how do locals afford it... The domestic economy has experienced substantial growth over the last few years and also made out well selling soy and other commodities to China.

None of which will mean anything when the shit hits the fan.

Argentina's economy is a total basket case. They have a financial meltdown once every 10-12 years and then are heading towards another one right now.

When do you think that'll happen .. with in 5 yrs?

[Hencredible Casanova]

I don't see the point of living in Argentina as an expat if the prices are high. Buenos Aires is a nice city, but rundown compared to Paris or New York. If it's competing on those prices, it loses.

I'm starting to think more and more that Panama is the place to be. Even as the economy booms, it still remains relatively affordable. I spent a good amount of time there in the past and I have many expat friends over there. I'm thinking that might be the move for logistics and business reasons.

[AlphaTravel]

Compared to many other parts of South America I found it quite expensive last year.

[solo]

(04-03-2012 12:28 AM)Soma Wrote:  

For an understanding of what is going on with the economy and inflation now I'd recommend starting with these from the Economist:

Argentina's Inflation Problem: The price of cooking the books
Official Statistics: Don’t lie to me, Argentina
Argentina's Economy: Piggy bank

The government is, yet again, ignoring all basic economic lessons and pursuing expansionary policies at all costs, resulting in an extremely overheating economy and consequently rampant inflation. There are huge economic imbalances building up and, if you wait another 5 years or so, this is all likely to end in tears again. Think a currency crash (again,) banking system collapse (again,) wiping out the middle class (again,) riots in the streets (again,) etc. The government has completely eliminated any modicum of independence from the central bank and takes/steals/prints money from it at will. Nobody trusts the Argentine peso (rightfully so!) and so what does the government do? Make it hard if not impossible to sell your pesos to buy dollars. That'll certainly inspire more confidence in the currency. Once faith is lost in a fiat currency it's all downhill from there. Few investors or companies want to invest capital in the country, exacerbating the overheating problem, because they're mistrustful of the political situation and since official inflation is about 20% less than real inflation, they know they'll never be able to get their money back, let alone make a profit.

I could go on and on; having lived there recently it's quite sad and frustrating to watch this slow-motion train wreck.

Thanks for this, will look into it. The_CE, yeah I've heard that they stopped subsiding the Bs As metro too.

Casanova, interesting that The Economist, being a British publication, almost seems to have something against Argentina. Out of interest I've looked into the Falklands/Malvinas case and without being an expert I found arguments on both sides.

Having said that, it does Argentina no good pushing this issue to and like you say all of the people there want to remain British. Actually, I thinks it's kind of typical of their mentality of living in the past. Don't get me wrong, I love Argentinian culture and know all about their terrible history during the military dicatarships (even got a friend and acquaintances who were tortured, almost killed or thrown in jail for years over nothing! so in many ways I can understand the living in the past) but their society is so divided politically and socially. On the one side you got the working class (often Boca fans) and on the other side the upper class (ofter River Plate fans) and the antagonism is very palpable. Understandably their history is a very sensitive subject, with the dictatorships having had support among parts of the upper class and the in-between tenure of Perón usually being supported by the working class (some of them admits he has some serious authoritarian traits himself, though). This antagonism is something one should be aware of when discussing politics and history with any Argentinian. Add to this their extreme level of corruption and lack of social capital and trust and I suppose it's not a good ground for independent sound economic policies. Brazil, for all their problems, seems to be much more forward-looking and capable.

(04-03-2012 12:56 AM)P Dog Wrote:  

When Argentina melts down in 5 years or whatever, I'll be location independent. Dive in right after the violence dies off and start fucking balling. Whose with me?

I'm with you but I don't know if I can wait five years. I will probably have to make it there sooner, at least for a shorter period of time. Want to go to one of their ski resorts in the Andes for a month or so. But I agree with Hencredible though, an important part of the attraction was the cheap buck.

[solo]

(04-03-2012 04:01 AM)P Dog Wrote:  

Argentina's already one of the worst off Western/White countries, at least outside of the former Soviet Union. Also, I know that when a countries economy is doing well, skirt lengths become shorter. The Roaring Twenties and the revolution of the 60's both occurred under economic booms in the States. I doubt a meltdown in Argentina will make things any easier, at least for Argentine guys making Argentine money living there. Could be different story for expats who'll enjoy far greater economic power.

Just to clarify this (hopefully without hijacking the thread) because I got kind of confused. A lot of posts in the Streets paved with pussy thread, for example, seem to build on the theory that it is easier for a foreigner right after an economic crash and during crisis/tough times. But you're saying it's easier during an economic boom. Maybe it's easier for a foreigner during an economic crisis, but easier for a local during an economic boom(?). In any case, just have game and you don't have to worry about the state of the economy.

[Rokirootimes2]

I was in BA recently (Nov '11) and was def surprised at the cost.

I went there with a five year-old lonely planet and having also read Roosh's description of it being very cheap (ala 5 years ago) with my rationale being, "oh, things won't have changed that much'. Wrong.

Whilst BA is overall cheaper than western countries, its not that much cheaper.

Things that were expensive were taxi's from the airport (avoid!), restaurants, long hall buses. I luckily was staying with a friend because otherwise, I would have been fucked. To underline how expensive it is in BA, I went into McDonalds and looked at the prices there. The burgers were cheaper in my home city of Sydney, which is not renowned as being a cheap city!!

Things that were cheaper were the subway, buses, taxis around town, going into museums and cheap eats like empanadas and hot dog stands. Basically, if you're going after pauper services the costs aren't too bad.

I did find that having a pizza at a nice restaurant or steak and going out for a drink was cheaper than back home, but it certainly was not cheaper by much. I'd say something that would cost maybe $13 would be $5-8 more expensive back in Sydney. Now some might say thats a lot, but considering how I was reading there were $5 steaks it was quite a surprise.

Another story. I hung out with a German guy for a bit in Mendoza (which was more reasonable) and he had a lonely planet that had only been published a year ago. Prices for adventure sports and prices for long haul buses had DOUBLED!

Long story short, Argentina ain't cheap.

[AlphaTravel]

Yeah I was shocked at Maccy Dees being double the price than they are back home. I found it could be quite expensive to go out and eat steak, but it was nice. The wine was OK priced. On the subject of Argentina food, is its lack of variety and it's near impossible to see a vegetable. Steak, ham, cheese are the three staple foods.

[portofmanteau]

I've been spending 3-6 months a year in Buenos Aires since 2006. Prices have gone up ~3 times since then for most things, and Kirchner is pursuing hardcore protectionist economic policies - up to 50% tariffs on all imported products, strict currency controls, etc. The economy is being run into the ground, and I agree with predictions that they'll face another crash within the next few years. Despite this, my enjoyment of the city increases every time I come. Internally, people actually think the country is doing really well, and that things are much better than they were a few years ago. There are no more significant arbitrage opportunities anymore but I think it's actually a lot more fun and interesting to be here now. It feels significantly less provincial, people actually have a little bit of money in their pocket and are easier going now, there are finally actually good restaurants – it would actually make sense to run a business here, if the tax authorities and police weren't so crooked.

I can understand the attraction, but if you're going somewhere just because it's cheap, you're probably going for the wrong reason. Comparisons for how much McDonalds, etc. cost are completely missing the point.