[Tuthmosis]

I've been noticing this more and more: guys who claim to be straight--and have girlfriends or wives--speaking in that lispy, effeminate way, and moving in that flamboyant style, that used to be clarion-calls marking homosexuality. For a while, I assumed these guys were just closeted gays trying to avoid being detected. This increasingly seemed like an inadequate explanation, given the relative acceptance in today's day and age, and the progressive cities that I tend to confine myself to.

I recently had an extended conversation with a guy about his "ex-girlfriend." He was among the most flamboyant dudes I'd ever met, but he went on and on in detail about her--to the point that I sorta believed him. I would have lost a lot of money on that bet. I have tons of stories like this. I went to an LTR's friend's wedding not long ago, and the groom--who I met for the first time there--sounded and acted like Hollywood Montrose from Mannequin (1987).

This isn't a thread for bashing gays (because I have no beef with them), but for talking about signs--such as this one--that men's deliberate (or unintentional) suppression of their sexuality is moving into speech patterns, involuntary behaviors, and subtler forms of communication. We've all clowned on the weak hipster with skinny girl-jeans, but this is beyond that. Some people have gone far enough to theorize that all the estrogen in the water supply--from girls pissing out their birth control--is having an effect. (The prevalence of soy products too.)

I'm no scientist, but it'd be interesting to catalog and interrogate some of these anecdotal signs from an on-lookers perspective.

Discuss.

[UgSlayer]

There are also gay dudes who are gruff and manly as fuck. They are called bears. I remember watching Kevin Smith's Too Fat For 40 and he's talking about his gay friend Malcolm who is fatter and hairier than he is.

Just like there are butch and masculine women who are straight, there are effeminate men who are straight.

IMHO the base, animalistic, sexual urge to have sex with another man is determined by genetics and is biological.

But the behaviors associated with homosexuality (being flamboyant and having feminine characteristics) are influenced by one's environment.

To conflate the act of gay sex and effeminite behavior is easy to do, but the presence of one does not necessarily mean the presence of another

Just my humble opinion.

Edit: GAYm forum

[Caligula]

Yeah like this guy who claims to be straight:

Isn't it just another symptom of the increased effeminacy of Western men?

Maybe it's down to more men being raised by single mothers. They end up taking after their female role models from childhood - with this result.

The latter guy might actually be gay though.

[UgSlayer]

True. You throw 'alpha male' in front of anything nowadays and motherfuckers just flock to it.

He does have good fashion advice from what I've seen, but he's no different than queer eye for straight guy dudes. I think I've seen him in some thread about suits or style here so it's not like this guy hasn't been on here before.

[Basil Ransom]

It's not gay, it's effeminate. And effeminacy is the hallmark of the homosexual male. You're aware of the distinction, but most people aren't. When the average guy tries to criticize and mock effeminate behavior, he ends up sounding like a homophobe - the only way he knows how to reference it is by 'how gay people act.' If you say anything remotely critical of effeminacy, people will take it as homophobia, and you'll get your ass canned faster than you can snap your fingers. A small part of the problem: there is no good slur for an effeminate dude besides 'faggot.' You call a straight dude that, and everyone will get their panties up in a bunch.

IMO, mocking effeminate behavior is an important part of training men to be masculine. But you can't mock effeminacy effectively any more. And if you say the word 'effeminate' people are like, huh, what? There are also straight men who are naturally effeminate, and find the demands of masculinity oppressive. "It's just not me." So they don't try to be men any more, and prefer the company of androgynes and homosexuals. Inevitably, you'll have some feminists crowing about "oppressive gender roles."

On the other hand, some people say guys try to act more manly to prove they aren't gay. That usually just means acting more boorishly, and shying away from things you might otherwise like were it not for getting judged for it. Eg, a guy who enjoys classical opera but avoids them because all his friends say 'that's gay.'

The definitive book on body language mentioned that women's vocal pitch has declined over the years. Watch movies from the 50's and before, and you'll notice that the narrators had more masculine, commanding, assertive voices.

Here's a good example, from Roissy - Sandra Fluke's boyfriend:

Quote:

This isn't a thread for bashing gays (because I have no beef with them), but for talking about signs--such as this one--that men's deliberate (or unintentional) suppression of their sexuality is moving into speech patterns, involuntary behaviors, and subtler forms of communication. We've all clowned on the weak hipster with skinny girl-jeans, but this is beyond that. Some people have gone far enough to theorize that all the estrogen in the water supply--from girls pissing out their birth control--is having an effect. (The prevalence of soy products too.)

The dietary/environmental reasons may well be factors. But the acceptance of homosexuality, with its attendant effects on culture and behavior, can't be ruled out either, especially with the prevalence of homosexuals in positions of influence. Feminism's total disdain for traditional gender roles is another probable contributor. Another one is growing up without a father - there was one kid in my school who grew up with his mom and his aunt, dad was dead I believe, and everyone just assumed he was gay because his mannerisms, voice included, were very effeminate.

[Baldwin81]

I live in a major metro area in the US and see this all the time. Of course, some of these guys might have bi-sexual tendancies but for the most part one's dick either quickly gets hard for a good looking girl or a good looking man.

Asssuming they're not homosexual, these men are a result of complete and total subordinance to the blue pill matrix. More often than not they are 80's babies and came up in a comfortable, safe, anti-bullying atmosphere. They've rarely have been in a physical confrontation. These guys have this rapid fire, earnest, and slightly effiminante voice. They're hip on the latest technology from a fanboy perspective - they don't know the ins-and-outs of how it works and don't care so long as it has a half-eaten fruit on the casing. They know their trends, their pop-culture, and are very active in social media.

A lot of them did the "right things..."

They got good grades in school, graduated from college, got some job and fell into some pussy once-in-a-while but every single one of them have been in a blue-balled, friendzone situation with a 7 or above.

For all their snark and fronting, for all their social media, earnest conversation, cool technology, manufactured brand name clothing, and for all the girls around whom they hover - these "guys" are so fucking lost it's not even funny.

One can't judge a book by it's cover, so to speak. Some of these guys might be gay, or legitimately bi-sexual. If that's the case then OK, go on and do you. If you're straight and acting in this sort of manner then make no mistake you are doing the bidding of a society that wants you to never change, never be aggressive, and never be an unapologetic man that people used to admire but now hate.

These are the guys that settle for some girl in her thirties. They have a "great partnership" and take dopey engagement photos. They're the white knights who throw passive aggressive insults at you while looking to their LJBF for approval. They shoot down game as being something for losers.

There are exceptions to every rule, to be sure. However, in my opinion these guys are too far gone in the matrix to ever be saved. They think that this effiminate style is their ticket to a woman. It hasn't worked (yet) but it will once she's ridden the cock carousel long enough.

For all that's written above, I don't hate these guys. This would've been me if I'd never found out about the game.

[Zebra_Cakes]

I'll say this. I've got the "gay voice". It's just something I've always had. I agree with Caligula that it's probably the product of my environment. I was raised by a single mother, with two sisters. With that said, my voice hasn't made any difference in my ability to get pussy. I get asked by some girls if I'm gay at the start of a conversation (I dress well and of course, the "gay voice"), interestingly enough, I usually always end up fucking these girls. Despite having this voice, I am aggressive. I'm dominant. I do what I want to do. I'm not flamboyant. It's just the voice I have.

[Basil Ransom]

(03-16-2012 12:30 PM)Zebra_Cakes Wrote:  

It's just the voice I have.

Just saying, if you want to change your voice, your vocal register, etc., it's possible. 'Who you are' is as fluid as you can make it. People think your voice is a lot more immutable than it actually is. This'll sound weird, but I started singing Sinatra and 'Springtime for Hitler' to myself when I was about 19, and my voice deepened dramatically that year. I started to feel my voice originating from my throat, instead of my mouth. My dad has a very deep voice, and I'm somewhat tall (longer vocal cords --> deeper pitch), so it's not coming from nowhere.

I've started a thread or two on it before. Your voice is one of the most underrated aspects of the game. It's one of those things that people will immediately judge you on, like your looks, but you have some power to change it. Sometimes you can hear a guy speak one sentence and conclude he's a loser just based on his voice - think nerdy engineer.

I am a little surprised that your effeminate voice hasn't held you back any. My voice regularly holds me back, because it's of a character that's hard to hear in loud environments, and chicks quickly get fed up if they can't hear me.

[Zebra_Cakes]

(03-16-2012 12:42 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

(03-16-2012 12:30 PM)Zebra_Cakes Wrote:  

It's just the voice I have.

I am a little surprised that your effeminate voice hasn't held you back any. My voice regularly holds me back, because it's of a character that's hard to hear in loud environments, and chicks quickly get fed up if they can't hear me.

Well, I'm naturally loud, so I wonder if that might have anything to do with it. I have looked into ways to alter my voice. I'll search your thread and give it a read and try some stuff out.

[Menace]

basil (or anyone),

Is it possible to use a voice coach or speech coach to lower your voice? This is something I've considered doing, because certain times I've been sick, and my voice sounded awesome and gravely.

[UgSlayer]

The only thing that really really matters is vocal projection. That is, how loud you are and how far your voice carries. There are plenty of dudes that have high voices that get laid.

What makes the difference is where your voice is coming from. As long as it's coming from your diaphragm you're good. I've noticed my voice sounds richer, not necessarily deeper (I would say my voice ranges from average to pretty deep anyway, but I can hit those high notes if I want). Plus, it really only takes a second to realize this and adjust. I've come across guys who are trying too hard with that deep voice thing and it just seems off. Like overcompensating.

Anyway, if you want to work on vocal projection and expression, anything that puts you in front of a crowd (public speaking, karaoke) are good exercises and fun after you get over the fear.

[Basil Ransom]

(03-16-2012 12:49 PM)Zebra_Cakes Wrote:  

(03-16-2012 12:42 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

(03-16-2012 12:30 PM)Zebra_Cakes Wrote:  

It's just the voice I have.

I am a little surprised that your effeminate voice hasn't held you back any. My voice regularly holds me back, because it's of a character that's hard to hear in loud environments, and chicks quickly get fed up if they can't hear me.

Well, I'm naturally loud, so I wonder if that might have anything to do with it. I have looked into ways to alter my voice. I'll search your thread and give it a read and try some stuff out.

Beyond my voice getting deeper, I haven't had much luck changing it for the better. You'd probably need a good vocal coach, but there are plenty of shysters who don't know shit, plus you may have to do it for awhile to have an effect - everyone I've heard from says their voice lessons are incredibly valuable, but that it's something you have to do consistently. There are also some books and programs that you can get online.

Here are a couple names you can Google for voice programs: Nancy Daniels, Eric Arceneaux. I don't have strong opinions on them, and my personal experience is pretty limited. Daniels' book was pretty easy to follow, I just never did the exercises with any consistency.

Menace, it should be possible. For instance, people often do convincing impressions of people with lower registers, in a way that doesn't sound stilted or artificial. If you can imitate a deeper voice convincingly, and it feels natural enough, you can speak regularly in that voice too. It's mostly a matter of finding that new lower pitch, and training yourself to consistently speak in that pitch instead of falling back into your old higher pitch. Maybe try finding colorful reading (Edgar Allen Poe is a favorite) and recording yourself speaking it at a lower pitch. Of course, there's a lot more to voice than just pitch. Daniels has a book with chapters devoted to improving different aspects of your voice.

Quote:

The only thing that really really matters is vocal projection. That is, how loud you are and how far your voice carries. There are plenty of dudes that have high voices that get laid.

Not so. It's not the be-all, end-all, but it is a factor however small. In a loud bar, projection is more important, but you're not forced to have one or the other necessarily.

[Giovonny]

Men are definitely more effeminate nowadays. Just like girls are more masculine. Just a sign of the times I guess. Things are getting more equal.

But, maybe not in the ways that we would like.

Don't forget that there are also gay guys with straight voices. So, this stuff goes both ways.

(03-16-2012 10:53 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

We've all clowned on the weak hipster with skinny girl-jeans,

Personally, I have never clowned on "hipster" guys. I am personally not a hipster and I don't hang in hipster circles, but, I live in San Francisco. I see hipsters everyday. Some are cool, some are weak, some get girls, some don't, some are tough, some are soft.

It's just a "look". A style of dress.

Compare this the the "wanna be gangsta" look. Acting like you are from the projects when you are really from the suburbs.

Or, the fake "Jersey Shore" guy.

Or, the "boring guy" wearing khakis, white shirt, and navy blue blazer.

I don't know which one is worse.

And, I'm from SF, one of the hipster capitals , I know that you cant judge a book by it's cover, we have "hipster" guys that will rob you for your Iphone!

But, I digress, I think Tuth's point is that western men are getting more feminine. I can't argue with that.

[thegmanifesto]

(03-16-2012 01:42 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

Don't forget that there are also gay guys with straight voices. So, this stuff goes both ways.

So to speak, right?

[Giovonny]

(03-16-2012 01:44 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

So to speak, right?

oh ya! hahaha

[babelfish669]

Gay guys bang girls, get married, and have kids. Doing any of those does not make you straight.

[Timoteo]

[i]"A small part of the problem: there is no good slur for an effeminate dude besides 'faggot.'"[i]

Where I'm from, you would just say a dude like this is "soft." It isn't necessarily a reference to sexuality, but simply to a man's overall presence.

[UgSlayer]

(03-16-2012 02:07 PM)Timoteo Wrote:  

[i]"A small part of the problem: there is no good slur for an effeminate dude besides 'faggot.'"[i]

Where I'm from, you would just say a dude like this is "soft." It isn't necessarily a reference to sexuality, but simply to a man's overall presence.

I could see someone like that being called soft, but I bet you no one would call that gay dude yelling at the cop soft. Even though its funny as hell and dumb, yelling at a cop like that takes balls. (the audio on my comp for that particular video is not working, but I read the comments and can see the body language)

Soft to me is more like sheltered or a coward than effeminate.

[Basil Ransom]

(03-16-2012 02:07 PM)Timoteo Wrote:  

[i]"A small part of the problem: there is no good slur for an effeminate dude besides 'faggot.'"[i]

Where I'm from, you would just say a dude like this is "soft." It isn't necessarily a reference to sexuality, but simply to a man's overall presence.

Problem is soft isn't a noun, and it doesn't have any punch. Plus 'soft' implies an introverted, quiet nature, when some of these guys can be very loud and flamboyant. The closest things to 'faggot' are 'pussy' and 'bitch,' but they don't really connote effeminacy, more like cowardice.

If you can't convincingly put 'fucking' in front of it, it won't work. Eg, fucking pussy, fucking loser, etc.

[el mechanico]

This dude was on my baseball team a few years ago. He showed up and the manager put him batting clean up and playing left field (need a gun) In the dugout I'm thinking Fag. He runs(prances) out to left field and I'm thinking at shortstop as he goes by Oh boy this is going to be funny.

The motherfucker was gunning dudes down at home plate from the fence and when at bat he was knocking them into the street. After the game he left with some hot ass blonde. I was shocked.

[Enfant_Terrible]

(03-16-2012 12:42 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

(snip)

Just saying, if you want to change your voice, your vocal register, etc., it's possible. 'Who you are' is as fluid as you can make it. People think your voice is a lot more immutable than it actually is. This'll sound weird, but I started singing Sinatra and 'Springtime for Hitler' to myself when I was about 19, and my voice deepened dramatically that year.

(snip)

Wait...so you un-gayed your voice by singing a tune from a gay musical? j/k

Speaking of changing your vocals it can be done with training. If you speak/sing more from the chest the voice is deeper.

I've had chicks ask me if I was gay or bi because my natural speaking voice has a touch of "nasal" to it + the way I dress + being into things like theatre. So I always make it a point that whenever I speak to a chick, I try to talk from my chest (combined with other masculine body language). Guys who observed me talking to a girl would comment, "that's funny you're using a bedroom voice." Yeah, but then I'm the one hanging out with her later on.

Classic Video:

[Basil Ransom]

(03-16-2012 02:42 PM)Enfant_Terrible Wrote:  

(03-16-2012 12:42 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

(snip)

Just saying, if you want to change your voice, your vocal register, etc., it's possible. 'Who you are' is as fluid as you can make it. People think your voice is a lot more immutable than it actually is. This'll sound weird, but I started singing Sinatra and 'Springtime for Hitler' to myself when I was about 19, and my voice deepened dramatically that year.

(snip)

Wait...so you un-gayed your voice by singing a tune from a gay musical? j/k

Speaking of changing your vocals it can be done with training. If you speak/sing more from the chest the voice is deeper.

I've had chicks ask me if I was gay or bi because my natural speaking voice has a touch of "nasal" to it + the way I dress + being into things like theatre. So I always make it a point that whenever I speak to a chick, I try to talk from my chest (combined with other masculine body language). Guys who observed me talking to a girl would comment, "that's funny you're using a bedroom voice." Yeah, but then I'm the one hanging out with her later on.

Haha yeah, was actually at the opera last week. My voice wasn't gay before, just normal or slightly above average pitch. Now it's fairly deep.

Speaking of talking to girls, I feel like quieter environments are more suited to playing off the 'dark, mysterious' angle. I can do it alright in the quiet spots (muted facial expression, relaxed dominant body posture, vague dark answers to her questions, slow movement and speech), but in the louder spots chicks quickly get bored, I feel have to energize the conversation more frequently, which makes me 'break out of character.' In film, it seems you only see the 'cool, mysterious' dude thriving in quiet, solitary interactions. It's too 'boring' to work elsewhere. Have you guys found the same to be true?

The best thing about these forums is how almost anything can be tied back to macking girls. Among most people, this makes you weird. Personally, I find little more fascinating than the sexes, and human nature generally.

Enfant,

I see your bet and raise you:

Note also how his reporting voice is considerably lower than his presumably personal voice. Your pitch is not unchangeable.

[UgSlayer]

(03-16-2012 02:42 PM)Enfant_Terrible Wrote:  

(03-16-2012 12:42 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

(snip)

Just saying, if you want to change your voice, your vocal register, etc., it's possible. 'Who you are' is as fluid as you can make it. People think your voice is a lot more immutable than it actually is. This'll sound weird, but I started singing Sinatra and 'Springtime for Hitler' to myself when I was about 19, and my voice deepened dramatically that year.

(snip)

Wait...so you un-gayed your voice by singing a tune from a gay musical? j/k

Speaking of changing your vocals it can be done with training. If you speak/sing more from the chest the voice is deeper.

I've had chicks ask me if I was gay or bi because my natural speaking voice has a touch of "nasal" to it + the way I dress + being into things like theatre. So I always make it a point that whenever I speak to a chick, I try to talk from my chest (combined with other masculine body language). Guys who observed me talking to a girl would comment, "that's funny you're using a bedroom voice." Yeah, but then I'm the one hanging out with her later on.

Classic Video:

haha THAT dude is soft

[Giovonny]

Also, you would be surprised how many of these so called "gangsters" are actually gay. Gay guys in the hood don't always look, act, or dress gay. They might look like fucking 50 cent but they are straight homo. I've heard a few stories of hardcore gangsters who raped their rivals and shit like that. Nobody talks about it but we all know it happens.

Last year there was a guy from Watts, one of the worst hoods in America who was a big time gangster and drug dealer. He had killed like 10 people. In the trial, it came out that he would rape these guys before he killed them. Crazy shit. Don't fuck with people who grow up in a fucking war zone!

Nas has a line about this kind of stuff in this song...

2nd verse that starts at 1:52..

Some niggas fuck their enemies in the ass when they catch'um..

Weird ass niggas who dangerous so don't test'um..

They'll make you dissapear..

[Timoteo]

(03-16-2012 02:29 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

(03-16-2012 02:07 PM)Timoteo Wrote:  

[i]"A small part of the problem: there is no good slur for an effeminate dude besides 'faggot.'"[i]

Where I'm from, you would just say a dude like this is "soft." It isn't necessarily a reference to sexuality, but simply to a man's overall presence.

Problem is soft isn't a noun, and it doesn't have any punch. Plus 'soft' implies an introverted, quiet nature, when some of these guys can be very loud and flamboyant. The closest things to 'faggot' are 'pussy' and 'bitch,' but they don't really connote effeminacy, more like cowardice.

If you can't convincingly put 'fucking' in front of it, it won't work. Eg, fucking pussy, fucking loser, etc.

In this context, soft can mean whatever you want it to mean. It can be directed at a quiet introvert, but also at a loud, flamboyant man just the same and you automatically know what it means depending on who you direct it at. In the context of sport, when you say a guy's game is "soft," it generally means weak...not aggressive. You're saying in any context that a guy is unmanly in some way. It's an interchangeable adjective. If you're looking for a noun, I agree - I'm at a loss for one that would convey this.