[xsplat]

I've had a long distance infatuation with bamboo for 10 years. I want to grow it, build with it, and sell it. I want to make bamboo houses, flooring, cabinetry, boats, furniture and handicrafts. I want the factory to be situated on the plantation, employ a small town of workers, and export worldwide.

It's farmed commercially in many countries. India, the Philippines, China, Thailand, Brazil, etc. There are even plantations in the US and it's a growing crop. If the figures from cost of production and profit per acre from India hold generally true for countries like the Philippines or Paraguay, then after the 5th year, each years profit from selling just the raw material can pay as much as 1/4 the cost of very cheap land (Philippine land at $14.00/square meter in this reckoning).

This website http://www.argentina-estancias.com/infla...rmland.htm suggests Paraguay as having the cheapest politically stable land. It suggests Brazil might also be an option.

Do I want to live in land-locked backwater Paraguay? If you wanted a bamboo farm, where would you put it, for cultural and lifestyle reasons alone?

And if you know anything about land prices and foreign land ownership laws, please let me know details.

Bamboo can grow on marginal farm land, and cost of land would be an important consideration in getting the return on investment ratio high. If you know of expat forums where farm land prices and social concerns are compared between countries, let me know.

[jdreise]

I know that the only country in SE Asia that a foreigner can buy land in is Malaysia. You'd be leasing in all the others. I believe you can also buy land in Taiwan but would imagine it as being more expensive since that island is heavily populated. Sri Lanka also permits foreign land ownership. You could look into Mexico as long as you're more than 50 km from the coast. The Mexican gov't doesn't allow foreigners to own land along the coastline. You can gain rights to the property but it's like a lease. You have to give it back eventually or lease it again.

What about Puerto Rico? You don't even have to worry about currency conversion. It's a part of the US.

Nicaragua? Land's pretty cheap there and it's relatively safe.

[Kona]

Bamboo is big in Maui, but you don't want to get involved in any business over there. Gas is 4.75 and the kicker is the electricity is diesel generated. Energy is just too expensive. All of Hawaii is that way. It's too bad, because you an buy serious acres of lava field ag land for cheap on the Big Island. More people would use it, but it's just too expensive to maintain.

Here's a few Maui bamboo farms:
http://www.kulabamboo.com/index.html
http://www.whisperingwindsbamboo.com/
http://www.yellowseedbamboo.com/


You should do something like that in the Philippines. I think a foreigner can own something like 8 acres outright, but each province has different loopholes. Of course, an envelope with a little cash (surprisingly little) can get you around just about every law there. You can also set up a trust with a lawyer and be the behind silent-owner of sorts of lots more land.

My experience with bamboo is not so good. I rent out a few houses on the Hilo side that are real backwoods and isolated. They all have catchment systems. I let some guy talk me into replacing the tanks at two places with some big bundle of bamboo shoots that was supposed to be the greatest thing in the world. It's tropical over there, hence it rains. The shoots kept blowing out, and the people were always with out water. I wound up having to just bring back the tanks.

That's just my experience though.

Aloha!

[xsplat]

The Dominican Republic looks good for land ownership laws and prices. I'm seeing some suitable land with a river in it go for as low as $1,300 per acre. Violent crime there is bad, but for the first 5 years or so I wouldn't even need to live there. Once the plantation is setup, and a house built, full time armed security would need to be hired, plus all the night vision gizmos and warning gadgets.

Maui might be a great place to live, and Puerto Rico could also be an option, but I want to stay out of any US jurisdiction. That country just freaks me out. I prefer countries that allow a little bribery leeway if you get in trouble, and aren't quite so keen on jailing people who compete with their favored multinationals.

It's not legal to own land in either the Philippines or Indonesia. There are workarounds, but they are not secure. There are also workarounds to land ownership in Thailand, but nowadays even old contracts are being scrutinized by officials and invalidated because they don't meet the letter and spirit of the law. So workarounds are not as secure as real ownership. Which could be fine for thirty years, but what if I have kids? I'd want my grandchilden to be rich enough to afford 10 wives each. I would consider the Philippines, but if there is cheaper land elsewhere with more favorable laws and a culture of young women equally interested in westerners, I'll look there first. After all, buying the land wouldn't mean I'd neccessarily need to live there full time. I could hire managers for all aspects of the farm and factories, eventually. Really the main considerations should be financial - access to roads and shipping ports, cheap labor, and very cheap land that can give high yields of bamboo.

It takes about 5 years before the land yields usable poles, and it would take me a few years to purchase equipment, get staff that can use it, choose and learn how to make products, and get sales contracts and a network of sales reps, but after the operation would be up and running - say 7 years after purchase, it should be a major money factory, and any futher money making ventures I would thereafter be involved in would be nothing but greedy excess. It would be enough money for 10 wives, and many wives per male child.

[Sonsowey]

Have you thought of Colombia? A quick google search makes it seem like bamboo in Colombia is already pretty common. Caribbean and Pacific ports.

I don't know what the proper environment for Bamboo is, but Colombia has diversity, from the heights of the Andes to Eternal Spring, from the Amazon to the Coast.

Though with land rights, there always is the para/narco conflict, which does drive many farmers from their land. It's not as bad as it was but don't let anyone tell you it's over.

[xsplat]

(03-13-2012 07:09 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

Have you thought of Colombia? A quick google search makes it seem like bamboo in Colombia is already pretty common. Caribbean and Pacific ports.

I don't know what the proper environment for Bamboo is, but Colombia has diversity, from the heights of the Andes to Eternal Spring, from the Amazon to the Coast.

Though with land rights, there always is the para/narco conflict, which does drive many farmers from their land. It's not as bad as it was but don't let anyone tell you it's over.

Ya, the first chunk of land I stumbled upon online has plenty of rain and irrigation and goes for just $1000/acre. No electricity. Near to the army and safe from serious troubles other than thieves.

Hmmm. Cheap land still exists out there. I'm liking.

[xsplat]

Someone sent me a private message but has his settings set so that I can't reply. He let me know of a story of people he knows who had some hard core difficulties in Columbia.

Thanks for that heads up. Sounds like Columbia is too hard core for me.

But Panama also has some cheap land, and access to both oceans, and land can be purchased by foreigners. Beachfront land is usually available only as a lease though. Panama seems to have a lot going for it - they're pretty developed and mostly civilized, right? I've heard the Panamanian Chicas rival the Venezuelanitas.

Update: it seems Venezuela has an ugly property tax and capital gains tax. http://www.panamarealtor.com/about-panama/article/80 . Something like 2% of the value per year for property tax and 3% of sale price or 10% of valuation increase for capital gains. So you wouldn't want to keep a huge chunk of land fallow there. However I'm not sure what their income and corporate tax is, which if low could offset the property tax for a commercial venture. I hear they have some free trade zones and agreements. Anyone more familiar?

[xsplat]

Oh - there could be some loopholes for property taxes. "Land used exclusively for farming and registered with the Ministry of Agriculture and Development at less than 150,000 USD. " is property tax exempt in Panama. So a factory would need to be located on a piece of land under a separate deed, and larger plots would need multiple deeds, I guess.

Otherwise the cost per year is about 1% of the valuation of the land, including improvements. http://www.panamarealtor.com/real-estate...tate-taxes .

Corporate tax rate is 27.5%, but no tax is due on foreign income. I assume domestic exports count as domestic income. So that's a rather huge tax burden.

Update: The sales of products or services to persons, entities, or companies located outside of Panama are not taxed. So exports don't incur corporate tax.

[xsplat]

By the way, has anyone else considered buying farm land as an investment? I know we have a lot of gold investors here. I'd think farm land would be at least as attractive, if you can get it cheap relative to your annual projected yield minus expenses.

They are making more gold, but no one is making more land. And people got to eat.

[kosko]

(03-13-2012 11:40 AM)xsplat Wrote:  

By the way, has anyone else considered buying farm land as an investment? I know we have a lot of gold investors here. I'd think farm land would be at least as attractive, if you can get it cheap relative to your annual projected yield minus expenses.

They are making more gold, but no one is making more land. And people got to eat.

Good call on the last part. I am a big advocate of land as an investment. It has been the most stable investment (as far as value goes) since the start of modern civilization. Barring some messed up situation the value will never go down. Rich people (I am talking top crust 0.05% rich) have used land as investments for decades and centuries. A quick google search of the largest land owners on earth yield a list of royalty and mega tycoons (the royals claim there assets are way lower, example the Queen of England fronts like she's moderately wealthy when she has ownership stakes in 85% of Canadian 'Crown' land). Land just like gold is a protected asset. Gold is lucrative because it is in low supply and tightly controlled. Land is similar. And yes at the end of the day people need food, good quality farm land will always be a good way to dump your cash long-term. Last land is dealt with on a local/regional/national level. You don't have the non-sense of London or Wall Street fucking around with prices. Land and the rules that apply to it are normally quite accessible and changes to those rules (normally) follow a open policy process also. So for a dude sitting with a sheet of concrete in Downtown Toronto he can know when certain moves will up the value of his land ten-fold. I am a big fan of land, I don't own any personally but I have land back home in my family that will be passed down to me.

To the OP I guess factor in supply chain costs to. PG is cheap on paper but my guess is transport, fuel, and energy costs down there must be a pain and would eat a lot of your cash up.

[Big Nilla]

(03-13-2012 11:40 AM)xsplat Wrote:  

By the way, has anyone else considered buying farm land as an investment? I know we have a lot of gold investors here. I'd think farm land would be at least as attractive, if you can get it cheap relative to your annual projected yield minus expenses.

They are making more gold, but no one is making more land. And people got to eat.

Yep, I plan to buy land in Panama, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, and maybe DR a few years from now. Only small plots, 10 acres or less. I won't be doing it for personal profit. I'm going to do it to create self-sustained food areas all over those countries as a model for the world. Govt's like the USA use and will use food to control people and I'm going to start in small countries and try to reverse that by giving them total local control over their food supply.

If every community in the USA had it's own 10 acre local organic food production area, Americans wouldn't be so fat and we wouldn't be easily bullied by the govt. But the USA is a lost cause.

I won't plant in the soil though. I'll use greenhouses and aquaponics. For meat I'll stick with rabbits, chicken, lambs, goats, and pigs.

I'll use these small food areas to implement my "Godfather Plan" that has a domino effect on the area's small businesses. I want small business owners and some form of a credit union to dominate local communities and make them as self-sufficient as possible in food, energy, etc.

[xsplat]

Apparently the cheapest land is still in Brazil. There are also still some large tracts of old growth bamboo forest there, so I'm looking into availability of that virgin land for purchase. That should be the fastest and least expensive way to get a bamboo plantation. The land I saw is as deep into Brazil as you can get, so there would be some shipping costs associated, however shipping is done by barging stuff down a long river (the length of Europe?), so added costs due to shipping can't be too bad.

One agribusiness consultant online says that in Brazil it's typical to value land at about 4 or 5 years worth of the net profit it can produce. Sometimes an investor will even pay for it from profits in as little as 3. I can't imagine a better investment if that's the case. They also warn that it's difficult to avoid fraud - so due dilligence is paramount.

I also learned that land prices in the D.R. are still very cheap - less than $1000/acre is easy to find.

Taxes on export products and income would be a big part of any calculation.

So I now have a plan. I will start by buying bamboo locally in Indonesia, and commission a small catamaran to be produced. The next step would be to commission a larger, 40 foot live aboard cat. To get the plans for the more expensive boat I'm willing to trade a share in ownership in the boat. The plan would be to fly it under an Indonesian Flag and charter it out, so whoever does the design would own a % of charter income. I'm looking to use 100% bamboo as the building material, creating my own bamboo plywood and laminates for cabinetry and decking, and possibly using a strip-laminate construction method for the hulls. I'm not aware of this material being used before for this, although it has been discussed in boating forums before. The designer therefore would need to do more than just forward me a copy of existing plans he has on the back shelf. I'll prefer plans that allow for a modular construction where pieces can be milled by automated machines, in case I want to put the boat into production or sell it as a kit.

If the boats are a success, I could commission more boats to be built elsewhere where there remains inexpensive bamboo and labor. Eventually I'd build them in Brazil and float them down the rivers to port, where they could ship worldwide. The idea in Brazil of course would also to make simple building materials such as bamboo flooring, decking, cabinetry, plywood, pick-up-truck bedding, etc. The notion is to do most of the value-adding to the raw material at the source of it.

I'm fond of bamboo as it seems to be the fastest growing fiber and the strength of it surpasses most lumbers. It can be farmed profitably and sustainably, making it the obvious upcoming choice of building material for the future - a future where old growth forests are no longer just hanging around waiting for someone to bother to cut them down.

Anyone interested in joining in in any parts of this process, such as helping to arrange for designs, purchase milling equipment, oversee laborers, etc, let me know.

[Downunder]

I would recommend Portugal.
I have seen land prices quite cheap there esp around the central part of the country.
Then you would have access to the European Union for what its worth

[xsplat]

(03-15-2012 06:04 PM)Downunder Wrote:  

I would recommend Portugal.
I have seen land prices quite cheap there esp around the central part of the country.
Then you would have access to the European Union for what its worth

How cheap?

And taxes?

[Jesse33]

(03-13-2012 01:09 PM)Big Nilla Wrote:  

(03-13-2012 11:40 AM)xsplat Wrote:  

By the way, has anyone else considered buying farm land as an investment? I know we have a lot of gold investors here. I'd think farm land would be at least as attractive, if you can get it cheap relative to your annual projected yield minus expenses.

They are making more gold, but no one is making more land. And people got to eat.

Yep, I plan to buy land in Panama, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, and maybe DR a few years from now. Only small plots, 10 acres or less. I won't be doing it for personal profit. I'm going to do it to create self-sustained food areas all over those countries as a model for the world. Govt's like the USA use and will use food to control people and I'm going to start in small countries and try to reverse that by giving them total local control over their food supply.

If every community in the USA had it's own 10 acre local organic food production area, Americans wouldn't be so fat and we wouldn't be easily bullied by the govt. But the USA is a lost cause.

I won't plant in the soil though. I'll use greenhouses and aquaponics. For meat I'll stick with rabbits, chicken, lambs, goats, and pigs.

I'll use these small food areas to implement my "Godfather Plan" that has a domino effect on the area's small businesses. I want small business owners and some form of a credit union to dominate local communities and make them as self-sufficient as possible in food, energy, etc.

I like it Big Nilla.

[johnw28]

It can be grown in costa rica, panama, nicaragua as well. Nicaragua has cheap land, whereas panama and costa rica would be more stable to invest. The reality is you can grow bamboo in most tropical areas, however some countries have restrictions on importation of certain species.