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Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America
#1

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

I just saw this ad on TV and it pissed me off. This is EXACTLY what the powers that be want Americans to do--fight against each other like rats and leave their disproportionate power over land, wealth, income, and resources unchallenged.

I know there's been strong and intense debate over illegal immigration but this is the first time I've seen something specifically against LEGAL immigration--which is a practice the US has depended on since its founding.

Over half of the PhD's awarded in the US are to immigrants.

The ad was also disingenuous because it said America had the highest immigration numbers in the western world. Well, we also have the largest population. We have the largest number of immigrants, but not the highest "rate." Canada accepts a larger percentage of immigrants than us by a landslide, as does several western European countries.

I guess what annoys me so much about this ad is that I'm the first in my family to grow up in the States. We're all citizens, and I wasn't even born in the US, but I was here since I was two months old, speak English with a perfect American accent, and I'm well-educated, so I consider myself second generation, in my views and identity. I see myself as an American.

Anyway, I'm sure there are those who agree and disagree, which is fine. I just think between this debate against a bedrock principle, and the rise in gas prices, lack of jobs, etc. the US could be looking at some very difficult days ahead. No telling where that could lead.

Just goes to show the truth in that saying that goes something like "they come after me today, then you tomorrow."




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#2

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

These kinds of campaigns are definitely targeted at stopping any and all immigration from certain countries. Not all immigrants are viewed in the same light.

"The best kind of pride is that which compels a man to do his best when no one is watching."
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#3

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

What a weird coincidence that these things seem to mainly come up during campaign season. It's the same topics over and over again, too. Hm.

Tuthmosis Twitter | IRT Twitter
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#4

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Immigrants probably make up less than 10% of the economy. Why Americans get so obsessed with foreigners is beyond me.

Contributor at Return of Kings.  I got banned from twatter, which is run by little bitches and weaklings. You can follow me on Gab.

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#5

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Shit like this makes me want to vomit.

Immigration is probably the last hope the United States has in not becoming a completely dysfunctional, entitled welfare state. I'm the product of immigration and have lived here almost my whole life. Any kid who goes off to college (or doesn't) and ends up back at home w/ mommy and daddy has nobody but his/herself to blame.
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#6

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Ha.

I saw this ad first thing this morning. Lame.

I am a first generation American too.

It is really ment to stir up racial tension.

Notice the "little blond girl"

Quote:Quote:

Well, we also have the largest population.

I think we have the third largest population, but I get your point.
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#7

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Quote: (02-26-2012 01:48 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

Ha.

I saw this ad first thing this morning. Lame.

I am a first generation American too.

It is really ment to stir up racial tension.

Notice the "little blond girl"

Quote:Quote:

Well, we also have the largest population.

I think we have the third largest population, but I get your point.

Agreed.

What I meant by population is that we have the largest population in the developed world. I was referring to the part in the ad where they were saying US accepts the most immigrants in the industrialized world.

In absolute terms, yeah, we're third behind China and India.
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#8

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Quote: (02-26-2012 01:10 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I just saw this ad on TV and it pissed me off. This is EXACTLY what the powers that be want Americans to do--fight against each other like rats and leave their disproportionate power over land, wealth, income, and resources unchallenged.

I know there's been strong and intense debate over illegal immigration but this is the first time I've seen something specifically against LEGAL immigration--which is a practice the US has depended on since its founding.

Over half of the PhD's awarded in the US are to immigrants.

Your criticism is off-base.

1. The powers that be have been the biggest proponents of immigration, both legal and illegal. The American population as a whole has been much more critical of illegal immigration than the elites have. (I haven't read much about Americans' attitudes towards legal immigration, especially with the current recession.

2. Increasing the supply of labor decreases wages, giving the holders of capital more power and laborers less. Legal immigration in the US consists of lots of unskilled and semi-skilled workers who are contributing to the labor supply, and not demand for labor. I think a strong case can be made for super-skilled immigrants like science PHDs and entrepreneurs who would create the most jobs, but a lot of the rest are more or less competing with Americans for jobs.

Quote:Quote:

Immigration is probably the last hope the United States has in not becoming a completely dysfunctional, entitled welfare state.

You must live in a different United States. Immigrants use welfare more than natives do.

Also, a lot of the legal immigration that does happen consists of bringing over old relatives of people who are already here, which is of questionable value, considering our strained healthcare system.
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#9

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Quote: (02-26-2012 01:43 PM)rozayINTL Wrote:  

Shit like this makes me want to vomit.

Immigration is probably the last hope the United States has in not becoming a completely dysfunctional, entitled welfare state. I'm the product of immigration and have lived here almost my whole life. Any kid who goes off to college (or doesn't) and ends up back at home w/ mommy and daddy has nobody but his/herself to blame.

That's a rather outlandish claim. If you think America is a dysfunctional state you haven't traveled much. And it's far from being a welfare state compared to European nations. How can anyone say that when we don't even have national healthcare? And even if that were the case, I don't see what exactly immigration would have to do with solving that.

As for your last statement, it's not always the person's fault when you're in a deep recession. Be realistic. So when 25% of the country was unemployed during the Great Depression that was their own fault too, right? Individuals aren't completely independent of macro-economic forces. And even if many people in their 20s aren't moving back in with parents, many these days can no longer make it without living with roommates.
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#10

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Quote: (02-26-2012 01:39 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

What a weird coincidence that these things seem to mainly come up during campaign season. It's the same topics over and over again, too. Hm.

No doubt. Politicians don't want to deal with the real issues and problems, because either they don't understand them themselves, or don't have a real solution. So they highlight some non-issue that speaks to the worst nature of the electorate - create an enemy that most can relate to. Create a culture war of some sort to get people passionate about.

"The best kind of pride is that which compels a man to do his best when no one is watching."
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#11

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Quote: (02-26-2012 02:13 PM)Timoteo Wrote:  

Quote: (02-26-2012 01:39 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

What a weird coincidence that these things seem to mainly come up during campaign season. It's the same topics over and over again, too. Hm.

No doubt. Politicians don't want to deal with the real issues and problems, because either they don't understand them themselves, or don't have a real solution. So they highlight some non-issue that speaks to the worst nature of the electorate - create an enemy that most can relate to. Create a culture war of some sort to get people passionate about.

The ad is sponsored by an independent group, and has no ties to any of the candidates, so far as I know. Politicians have been too cowardly to confront the issue of immigration actually.

And advertising during campaign season is the best time. Would you advertise a car for sale to someone who just bought one? No, you'd go for the people in the market for one, but who haven't yet bought one. The voters are 'in the market' now.
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#12

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Quote: (02-26-2012 02:02 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

Quote: (02-26-2012 01:10 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I just saw this ad on TV and it pissed me off. This is EXACTLY what the powers that be want Americans to do--fight against each other like rats and leave their disproportionate power over land, wealth, income, and resources unchallenged.

I know there's been strong and intense debate over illegal immigration but this is the first time I've seen something specifically against LEGAL immigration--which is a practice the US has depended on since its founding.

Over half of the PhD's awarded in the US are to immigrants.

Your criticism is off-base.

1. The powers that be have been the biggest proponents of immigration, both legal and illegal. The American population as a whole has been much more critical of illegal immigration than the elites have. (I haven't read much about Americans' attitudes towards legal immigration, especially with the current recession.

2. Increasing the supply of labor decreases wages, giving the holders of capital more power and laborers less. Legal immigration in the US consists of lots of unskilled and semi-skilled workers who are contributing to the labor supply, and not demand for labor. I think a strong case can be made for super-skilled immigrants like science PHDs and entrepreneurs who would create the most jobs, but a lot of the rest are more or less competing with Americans for jobs.

Quote:Quote:

Immigration is probably the last hope the United States has in not becoming a completely dysfunctional, entitled welfare state.

You must live in a different United States. Immigrants use welfare more than natives do.

I didn't say elites were against immigration. I'm saying they would generally prefer that the public rhetoric focuses on most Americans--immigrants and non-immigrants--battling amongst each other for resources and cash flow instead of challenging them. The benefit of immigration for the elites are clear. Immigrations breathes new blood into the US. It's also a source of cheap labor at all levels and helps maintain the power structure by diverting attention away from them as Americans compete amongst each other.

Immigrants, on average, contribute a net income of 80K over the course of their life to the government more than they receive in services.

Of course, there are differences between different immigrant groups in use of public services, educational attainment, and success with assimilation, etc.
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#13

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Quote: (02-26-2012 02:20 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

The ad is sponsored by an independent group, and has no ties to any of the candidates, so far as I know.

I gather you are using the term "independent group" rather loosely here, right?
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#14

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Quote: (02-26-2012 02:20 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

The ad is sponsored by an independent group, and has no ties to any of the candidates, so far as I know. Politicians have been too cowardly to confront the issue of immigration actually.

Correction: "independent group"

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#15

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Many politicians are PUBLICLY against illegal immigration, while privately supportive of it.

"The best kind of pride is that which compels a man to do his best when no one is watching."
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#16

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Quote: (02-26-2012 02:23 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I didn't say elites were against immigration. I'm saying they would generally prefer that the public rhetoric focuses on most Americans--immigrants and non-immigrants--battling amongst each other for resources and cash flow instead of challenging them. The benefit of immigration for the elites are clear. Immigrations breathes new blood into the US. It's also a source of cheap labor at all levels and helps maintain the power structure by diverting attention away from them as Americans compete amongst each other.

Immigrants, on average, contribute a net income of 80K over the course of their life to the government more than they receive in services.

Of course, there are differences between different immigrant groups in use of public services, educational attainment, and success with assimilation, etc.

Point taken.

The most important point is one that, as you and I have distinguished, there are differences among immigrants. The extent to which immigrants benefit us is a function of who comes in. Cuban mental patients and ex-Nazi rocket scientists are going to have very different outcomes.

This is why the immigration debate is so shitty. The proponents of immigration, who are the dominant force, lump all immigration together, because if you were to separate immigration into different groups, eg by skill level, it would be apparent that some groups don't benefit America, while others grace us with world's best talent.

'Independent Group' meaning not affiliated with any of the candidates, just as the NRA might be. They have an agenda, of course, otherwise they'd have no reason to exist. Being independent doesn't forbid taking a strong position on something.
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#17

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Basil has really is good at seeing the big picture.

The point about immigration, HC, is labor supply.

It made sense from 1620 and on because the US was rich in resources, but poor in labor. When people talk "opportunity" of the US, what they talk about is the enormous resources the US had, and we accepted gladly millions of Europeans to come and settle. In the process, we annihilated the Indians and enslaved Africans, but nothing new here: conquering and enslaving other peoples is standard protocol, it's how the world works.

The US is no longer rich in resources and poor in labor. High unemployment testifies to this. The rational for immigration is LABOR supply. What's the point of having millions of low-skilled immigrants in the US if we have millions of our own low-skilled unemployed?

When you don't pay attention to reality or understand the forces and economic rationale at work, feelings take over and the arguments become about feelings - not facts. Immigration CAN be useful, but not always. A certain level of immigration makes sense, but like everything else in life, more does not necessarily mean better.

A year from now you'll wish you started today
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#18

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Quote: (02-26-2012 02:34 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

Quote: (02-26-2012 02:23 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I didn't say elites were against immigration. I'm saying they would generally prefer that the public rhetoric focuses on most Americans--immigrants and non-immigrants--battling amongst each other for resources and cash flow instead of challenging them. The benefit of immigration for the elites are clear. Immigrations breathes new blood into the US. It's also a source of cheap labor at all levels and helps maintain the power structure by diverting attention away from them as Americans compete amongst each other.

Immigrants, on average, contribute a net income of 80K over the course of their life to the government more than they receive in services.

Of course, there are differences between different immigrant groups in use of public services, educational attainment, and success with assimilation, etc.

Point taken.

The most important point is one that, as you and I have distinguished, there are differences among immigrants. The extent to which immigrants benefit us is a function of who comes in. Cuban mental patients and ex-Nazi rocket scientists are going to have very different outcomes.

This is why the immigration debate is so shitty. The proponents of immigration, who are the dominant force, lump all immigration together, because if you were to separate immigration into different groups, eg by skill level, it would be apparent that some groups don't benefit America, while others grace us with world's best talent.

'Independent Group' meaning not affiliated with any of the candidates, just as the NRA might be. They have an agenda, of course, otherwise they'd have no reason to exist. Being independent doesn't forbid taking a strong position on something.

Yeah. Immigrants are different from one another just as non-immigrants are. Just like you can't lump all immigrants together, you can't lump all Americans together, even within specific races, religions, regions, etc.

There's actually an interesting and controversial new book about these differences within the US white population over the last 50 years called "Coming Apart" by Charles Murray. He's a libertarian who co-authored that controversial book called "The Bell Curve." Anyway, his latest book as been getting a lot of press coverage and he also appeared on Charlie Rose to discuss it.

Politicians and special interest groups have been seizing on political/social/economic differences between people for personal gain since the founding of democracy.

Cuban-Americans have been wildly successful in the United States, especially in South Florida. They make up the bulk of the business and professional class in Miami and are an extremely powerful and influential political lobby. These were the folks that decided to up and leave from Cuba when they learned that Castro was going to take the country into the direction of Communism shortly after he seized power from the Batista government. Cubans have done exceedingly well in the US, which is much different from the latino experience in, say, Southern California with Mexican immigrants.
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#19

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Quote: (02-26-2012 01:48 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

It is really ment to stir up racial tension.

Yep.


The "independent group" that put it out there has been called a "hate group" by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

I say the white woman in the video needs to find a stripper pole and quit whining. She's still got a few good years of dancing left in her.

Aloha!
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#20

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Quote: (02-26-2012 02:34 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

The most important point is one that, as you and I have distinguished, there are differences among immigrants. The extent to which immigrants benefit us is a function of who comes in. Cuban mental patients and ex-Nazi rocket scientists are going to have very different outcomes.

But then we would have never had this movie:






And there is no denying the positive impact the Cubans have had on America.

Quote:Quote:

This is why the immigration debate is so shitty. The proponents of immigration, who are the dominant force, lump all immigration together, because if you were to separate immigration into different groups, eg by skill level, it would be apparent that some groups don't benefit America, while others grace us with world's best talent.

Right.

But the "unskilled" immigrants do a lot of the "unskilled" work. And keep in mind, American's are such cheapskates that they are the ones paying them.

American's create the "demand" for "unskilled" immigrants.

Also, the amount of "unskilled" immigrants that have done positive things for America is countless.
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#21

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Quote: (02-26-2012 02:48 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

Quote:Quote:

This is why the immigration debate is so shitty. The proponents of immigration, who are the dominant force, lump all immigration together, because if you were to separate immigration into different groups, eg by skill level, it would be apparent that some groups don't benefit America, while others grace us with world's best talent.

Right.

But the "unskilled" immigrants do a lot of the "unskilled" work. And keep in mind, American's are such cheapskates that they are the ones paying them.

American's create the "demand" for "unskilled" immigrants.

Also, the amount of "unskilled" immigrants that have done positive things for America is countless.

I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.
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#22

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

America sure got whiter than I remembered it!

I agree with what Basil said. The elites love immigration because it keeps wages low.

In A People's History Of The United States, Zinn shows how the elites let various groups fight each other to keep them distracted from the raping of wealth that goes from the poor to the rich.

http://www.amazon.com/Peoples-History-Un...0060838655
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#23

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Quote: (02-26-2012 03:03 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

America sure got whiter than I remembered it!

I agree with what Basil said. The elites love immigration because it keeps wages low.

In A People's History Of The United States, Zinn shows how the elites let various groups fight each other to keep them distracted from the raping of wealth that goes from the poor to the rich.

http://www.amazon.com/Peoples-History-Un...0060838655

Read the negativ reviews for that book. All books get negative reviews, but Zinn's book as a HUGE number of negative reviews. Given that people often like to read what they already agree with, that's telling.

A year from now you'll wish you started today
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#24

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Quote: (02-26-2012 02:51 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

Quote: (02-26-2012 02:48 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

Quote:Quote:

This is why the immigration debate is so shitty. The proponents of immigration, who are the dominant force, lump all immigration together, because if you were to separate immigration into different groups, eg by skill level, it would be apparent that some groups don't benefit America, while others grace us with world's best talent.

Right.

But the "unskilled" immigrants do a lot of the "unskilled" work. And keep in mind, American's are such cheapskates that they are the ones paying them.

American's create the "demand" for "unskilled" immigrants.

Also, the amount of "unskilled" immigrants that have done positive things for America is countless.

I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

True.

So the question is: should it be OK to be on the dole, or should you get rid of government provided welfare and let the single mom from Detroit work in the hot, sweltering Southern sun at USD 8 an hour all summer?

There is no question in my mind:

For the individual, better to be on the dole. For society: let her work the fields.

A year from now you'll wish you started today
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#25

Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

Quote: (02-26-2012 02:51 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

Quote: (02-26-2012 02:48 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

Quote:Quote:

This is why the immigration debate is so shitty. The proponents of immigration, who are the dominant force, lump all immigration together, because if you were to separate immigration into different groups, eg by skill level, it would be apparent that some groups don't benefit America, while others grace us with world's best talent.

Right.

But the "unskilled" immigrants do a lot of the "unskilled" work. And keep in mind, American's are such cheapskates that they are the ones paying them.

American's create the "demand" for "unskilled" immigrants.

Also, the amount of "unskilled" immigrants that have done positive things for America is countless.

I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

I wasn't bashing Cubans as a whole, just saying Cuban mental patients specifically are probably a bad idea. Maybe we can make an exception for the cocaine huffing gun-toting ones on occasion to prop up Hollywood though.

I agree that Americans created that demand, once the laws were changed to enable it.

But there are Americans lining up to take unskilled jobs. Employers are fond of saying that they can't find anyone. To the extent that it's true, it's because they aren't willing to raise wages high enough. It's like me complaining I can't find a personal umbrella valet (because I'm only offering a $1 an hour). And sometimes it isn't true -employers will just simply lie via groups like the Chamber of Commerce, so that immigration brings wages down.

As for the cost of goods soaring without these immigrants - I'm not so sure. The labor cost of the lots of the stuff that you buy is actually fairly low, thanks to highly mechanized industries. Even for retail - I did a stint in retail, in a liquor store, and I calculated that our labor costs were about 10% of revenue. So increasing prices by 5% would be enough to increase compensation by 50%, if demand stayed the same. Demand would probably decline a little, but other stores would be facing the same pressures. There's also a lot of costs of unskilled immigration that you don't see - such as education spending, at $10k per kid per year.

Quote:Quote:

If (the consumer) spends $1 on a pint of strawberries, the farmer's getting 18 cents. He gives about one-third of that to farmworkers, so they make 6 cents." So even if the labor cost were to double, that would still only be a 6 cent increase per pint.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...=printable

Sounds like the real crime in this case is how less than 20% of the revenue is going to the farmer and his workers. I wonder where the other 82% goes.
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