[mikeymike]

(02-23-2012 08:15 PM)alecks Wrote:  

(02-23-2012 07:37 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  

(02-22-2012 04:58 PM)alecks Wrote:  

(02-22-2012 08:03 AM)mikeymike Wrote:  

(02-22-2012 03:19 AM)garygroundwork Wrote:  

fair enough. i don't know too many people that don't get shut down after using androgens even with a good HCG/ clomid/ AI protocol during and post cycle. but i'll just shut up....it's not worth the hassle.

I know of at least a couple dozen first hand that have the blood work to show natural test production pick back up after proper pct, its the blasters and cruisers that are never off that after long periods on have trouble rebounding but in most cases it does return tho more professional care may be needed... Im lifting with guys competing for their pro cards their blood tests are immaculate, and they use doses that the rec user doesnt go near...so if youre just trying to say itll shut your test production down in the short term youre right if youre saying permanantly youre wrong.

what doses are these dudes on? are we talking more than 1g of test a week? etc if these dudes havnt already got their pro card and they're on ridiculously high doses then tell them to give up

yeah thanks for the hot tip, i'll get right on that.

Spoken like somebody who has never stepped on stage, never competed at a high level, has no concept of how few qualify for pro cards, the evolution of a bb'er, or how many factors come into play while trying to qualify... 1 gram a week isnt the magic bullet that either you're on that and qualify or you're not good enough...Your average rec users treading in the gram a week territory these days...

im not on anything dude. by rediculously high doses i mean what the the top pros are using (along with peptides and seo's).what im saying is that if these dudes are not pro's yet (very few turn pro) and they are on such high doses,then tell them to take a rain check.there are thousands of dudes hoping to turn pro and its obvious that they have surpassed their genetic limit.They try to compensate by going nuts on the gear and end up having 1: a horrible physique and 2: serious health problems,think dave palumbo

What im saying is unless you know the individual making a general statement like being on a gram of test and not being a pro yet means its not gonna happen so quit can't just be spit out. There are many rec users who are happy being the best they can be and jacking in a gram, everyones a big boy and free to make their own choice, not the choice id make but hell lots of guys are banging thai hookers and playing around with questionable ass but in the end the only ones who gotta live with the decisions we make are us so not my place to comment on someones life choices...as for the the guys I train with both top 5 in their respective weight classes and barely failed to qualify, they'll be pros, its not a matter of if but when, great ones or not who knows but they're under 23 and genetic freaks but already sponsored and making solid coin...they have the size but quality of muscle and maturity of muscle takes time, as does learning how to come in on comp night dialed in....that comes thru time and trial and error so a snap comment like theyre on a gram and and not a pro yet quit is silly. Its not a life id choose for myself but unlike most rec users they're getting the blood tests and constantly monitored, if you're gonna play on the dark side might as well do it as safely as possible.

[mikeymike]

(02-23-2012 07:47 PM)billy Wrote:  

Funny thread this, I have a vial of Tren and 100 iu's of GH sat in he fridge as we speak, had them for a while and still unsure of taking the Tren, pretty settled in having a go for a 3 month kick of GH despite many telling me its a waste of money. I avoided test because I don't want bitch tits or the need to carry privrion/nova/letro etc. If the GH is worth it I will let the forum know in a couple of months.

Hgh isnt a waste you'll notice benefts in terms of sleep quality, better hair etc but you should be trying to do it for 6 months and if you're looking to pack on any size then you'd need to ass in some aas. Tren isn't a rookie product but not nearly as scary as you're making it out to be. Tren shouldn't be taken without some test, even a minimal amount as it will kill your libido. Taking tren doesn't guarantee that you won't get bitch tits, in fact you could end up lactating as it applies via a different mechanism than does test so you'd still likely like to have a product like caber or prami on hand. Taking test doesn't guarantee you bitch tits either, many take without issue, you're being paranoid but always best to err on the side of caution and have the anti e. Doesn't sound like you're ready to be playing with gear yet.

[billy]

(02-24-2012 06:42 AM)mikeymike Wrote:  

Tren shouldn't be taken without some test, even a minimal amount as it will kill your libido. Taking tren doesn't guarantee that you won't get bitch tits, in fact you could end up lactating as it applies via a different mechanism than does test so you'd still likely like to have a product like caber or prami on hand.

I have heard it said a few times that Tren should be mixed with test but I would not go near any amount of test with out Clomid/proviron/armidex/letro/nova etc on hand and as yet I have not found any good scientific sources on their use and specifically the differences between the different anti e's. I also have not found any definitive scientific answer on what type of test to use or wether just to use sustanon.
I have never read any info on Tren giving you estrogenic side effects, I know it can atrophy your nuts although I assume this can be combatted with HCG.

[mikeymike]

(02-25-2012 05:15 AM)billy Wrote:  

(02-24-2012 06:42 AM)mikeymike Wrote:  

Tren shouldn't be taken without some test, even a minimal amount as it will kill your libido. Taking tren doesn't guarantee that you won't get bitch tits, in fact you could end up lactating as it applies via a different mechanism than does test so you'd still likely like to have a product like caber or prami on hand.

I have heard it said a few times that Tren should be mixed with test but I would not go near any amount of test with out Clomid/proviron/armidex/letro/nova etc on hand and as yet I have not found any good scientific sources on their use and specifically the differences between the different anti e's. I also have not found any definitive scientific answer on what type of test to use or wether just to use sustanon.
I have never read any info on Tren giving you estrogenic side effects, I know it can atrophy your nuts although I assume this can be combatted with HCG.

your level of paranoia regarding test is off the charts, tren is a far more dangerous product in terms of sides. Nobody recommended using test without an anti e on hand. Science journals dont as a habit break down the science for the lifting community so its been left for us to break down on our own, if you're looking for a journal to say, stick to test x with anti e brand y for optimal growth you're not gonna find it. Its a combination of figuring what we can from the journals and bro science...Test is test, which one you use is irrelevant, they're just varying esters, and in the end it's your diet and time in the gym that'll dictate how the product will work not which ester you chose but conventional thinking is a shorter ester to cut, and a longer ester to bulk...depends on how often you want to poke. As for which anti e to go with, again it varies depending on need, if you're feeling the nasty itch and feel gyno kicking in you want something to kill estrogen quick and go with a stronger one, if you want something to keep bloat down and protect all along a cycle a milder choice is the way to go.

Tren gives your progesteronic sides, prolactin kills your libido, and progesterone if you're prone will cause you to grow breast tissue and possibly lactate...as far as bitch tits go, if you had to choose the test variety at least doesnt risk you leaking out your nips while at the beach. You shouldnt touch tren without caber or prami so if you're avoiding test cause you need to take more to stay safe then avoid tren too.

As for clomid, thats pct related and not an anti e

You really dont sound anywhere near ready to be playing with gear.

[billy]

Based on what I have read Tren on its own does not give you gyno, it can bind to progesterone receptors but would need to be in VERY high doses to cause biological activity. Science and personal experience leads to believe that tren does not induce gyno on its own.

[mikeymike]

whatever bro, if you dont wanna listen dont listen... some cant be helped.

[MikeCF]

(02-27-2012 08:02 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  

whatever bro, if you dont wanna listen dont listen... some cant be helped.

Yeah, man. I'm not a negative person and enjoy helping guys out.

I stayed out of this thread for a reason.

The guys who know tend to not say, because basically you're then forced to argue with morons who "know it all."

[mikeymike]

(02-28-2012 05:58 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(02-27-2012 08:02 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  

whatever bro, if you dont wanna listen dont listen... some cant be helped.

Yeah, man. I'm not a negative person and enjoy helping guys out.

I stayed out of this thread for a reason.

The guys who know tend to not say, because basically you're then forced to argue with morons who "know it all."

yeah you said it earlier and I shouldve listened, lesson learned.

[billy]

Are some of you a bit sensitive or what ? I take all advice in good grace, after reading you comments about prolactin gyno I did my own research and figured that tren induced gyno was rare compared to test gyno, I also agree that some test should be used as a base for Tren but for me it will be a very low dose. I don't take anyone thing I read on the interweb as gospel I use it as a base for further research and make a descison on my own, I have not at any point argued with anyone about this I just said what I think, the indication that I am a 'know it all' a 'moron' or 'arguing' is a joke. If some people are too insecure to be disagreed with I suggest they seek therapy.

[mikeymike]

"I have not at any point argued with anyone about this I just said what I think"

thats the problem, you dont know anything, why you're not listening to those who know better and trusting your gut is insane, your take on test is ridiculous, your belief that tren only affects those who take high doses is like saying people only get addicted to coke if they take it more than once, you dont know. Mike clearly knows what he's talking about when it comes to this and he's made it clear how you come across, I've been in this game since the original 2 board were online, since the days of the original one ug lab, when we didnt know jack shit and we learned together by being guinea pigs and putting our bodies on the line, the shit you see copy and pasted on every board is the stuff we were originally posting so when somebody who knows something is telling you basics and you flat out ignore it, you show what you are. It's not insecurity it's frustration and the reason I dont bother with the lifting boards anymore like most of the old timers, every noob thinks they know the answers then they hit their first poke and blood shoots across the room and they think theyre gonna die or they get a knot and don't know what the fuck it is, or they think that at 150 pounds soaking wet theyre ready to cycle and dont wanna hear they havent even built a base to build upon, or guys cutting corners, not wanting to do pct, or get the anti es cause theyve heard others have been lucky enough to not need them....until you've run a cycle and know how your body responds to anything you shouldn't be making ANY decisions on what you can do and do without. Assume you need it and trust the people who've been there before and have something to offer, we're not helping to make you look stupid, its so you didnt make the mistakes weve seen a hundred times over. Ive had guys freak out over itchy nips with 200mgs a week of tren, thats 50mg eod, you dont get any more beginner than that on the flip side my buddy is on 800 mgs a week of tren and a gram of test and he just doesnt have any issues with gyno and he goes without the anti es but hes been blasting and cruising for a good couple years he knows what his body does.