[worldwidetraveler]

(03-13-2012 08:43 PM)torontokid Wrote:  

I remember you posting that you did well in IM previously. Would you say it was a worthwhile use of your time?

I'm not going to lie, it was a pain in the ass but very worthwhile. haha

I didn't get sucked into things many people do. I don't know much about SEO, I don't do articles, I don't try to sell products I don't own...

The main things I learned.

How to sell.
To fully exploit a market before I even think about looking at another one.
The power of scale.
To focus on big markets.
Networking is crucial even if you do all business online.
To do the opposite of what most people do.
Always include high priced items in your product line.
Always include a recurring product or service in your product line.

[Deluge]

(03-13-2012 02:34 PM)mofo Wrote:  

(03-11-2012 11:50 PM)P Dog Wrote:  

(03-09-2012 02:55 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

No one on on this forum is getting rich from Tim Ferris.

I know for a fact that this bit is incorrect.

Define rich.

On the forum itself, over six figures a year and counting. Which isn't "rich", but out-earns guys who've been slaving away in white-collar positions for years. Outside the forum, the most I know of (not including Steve Pavlina) is half a million a year, the majority of which is from IM, the remainder SEO.

It's really funny how many "Making money online" deniers there are, just like the "Game deniers" that we all know are wrong.

[Aliblahba]

I wish I could be a internet pimp like you guys. Seriously. Last night I talked to 2....that's right 2 combat pilots. They were cool cats from other countries. We talked for hours. 1 dude had a HUGE rundown on W. Aussie jobs. These guys want me to work with them. However, I told them I only work 4 hours a week, and I use a screen to protect myself. Bwhahhahahahahhaha.

[Deluge]

(03-14-2012 03:08 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

I wish I could be a internet pimp like you guys. Seriously. Last night I talked to 2....that's right 2 combat pilots. They were cool cats from other countries. We talked for hours. 1 dude had a HUGE rundown on W. Aussie jobs. These guys want me to work with them. However, I told them I only work 4 hours a week, and I use a screen to protect myself. Bwhahhahahahahhaha.

You've yet to offer a single rational reason for why you hate making money online so much. Please don't take this personally, but don't you see how similar you're sounding to a close minded "blue pill" game denier?

[joehoya]

The whole "internet marketing" thing has gotten such a bad stigma. While I will be the first to admit that some of that criticism is well deserved, it obscures some MAJOR benefits to internet marketing.

First, we have to separate two different uses of the term internet marketing. The detractors on this board seem to be using the IM term for any "business" in which the person is basically just advertising someone else's products and gets some sort of commission, either from a sale (in the case of affiliate marketing), or from a click (in the case of adsense).

When you look at this model, it is really no different from the Tupperware, Mary Kay, and Amway business model, minus earning commissions from folks under you. It just so happens that these products are advertised on the internet. So rather than detracting "internet marketing" what is really being criticised is having a "business" where you are merely a commission salesperson. Because that is all you are if you are promoting other people's stuff, a commission salesperson.

HOWEVER, the way I look at IM is that it is just a method of marketing a product or service online. If you have a product or service that lends itself to being purchased online, you would be a complete fool to discount internet marketing. It would be like creating a new toy or kid's cereal and refusing to advertise during cartoons or other children centric television shows.

For me, internet marketing is just ONE facet of a larger business model. I am currently building a mobile application and a web application that I am considering selling. Can you imagine someone creating a mobile app or a web app and not doing any marketing for it? I guess there have been a few folks that have made it without marketing, but then again, there have been a few folks that have won the lottery.

This brings me to a point that has hit home with me. FAR TOO MANY aspiring entrepreneurs completely discount the marketing aspect of their business, to their own detriment. They have this great IDEA and dump a bunch of money developing it. Then they offer the product for sale and either:
A) do ZERO marketing for it (I guess they believe that their app is so awesome that their customers will just find it on their own).
B) ATTEMPT to market it without the slightest clue on how to market their product (e.g. building a mailing list, creating an effective sales funnel, writing good ad copy, SEO, proper use of google adwords, etc).
C) Create a product that the market doesn't want to begin with.

Look, I am a software developer. I would LOVE IT if all I had to do was write great code for a cool application and not worry about any marketing. I would love it if the code was all that mattered. But that shit isn't the truth. The truth is that marketing (and by that I am including determining if there is even a market for your product) is one of the most, if not the most, critical aspects of success.

[Kitsune]

I agree, but my major bug bear with Internet Marketers is that they don't do most of the stuff you listed.

If you get IM'ers to download a template business plan, most of them don't have a clue about any of it. They don't do market research, they don't think about what service they're providing, and they don't think about anything other than how they're going to make money. (They don't even think about that too well.) Because the barriers to entry are so much lower (No overheads, no real ongoing costs) people half arse it all across the board.

That is a world away from how 'corporate' business works, even though both are the same thing.

(Among other things, I run consultancies for net businesses.)

In terms of operations, Internet Marketing isn't really a business. It is one aspect of one part of one business. You wouldn't suggest that someone start a 'handing out flyers' business, and IM is a technological version of that.

[Deluge]

(03-14-2012 06:31 AM)Kitsune Wrote:  

I agree, but my major bug bear with Internet Marketers is that they don't do most of the stuff you listed.

If you get IM'ers to download a template business plan, most of them don't have a clue about any of it. They don't do market research, they don't think about what service they're providing, and they don't think about anything other than how they're going to make money. (They don't even think about that too well.) Because the barriers to entry are so much lower (No overheads, no real ongoing costs) people half arse it all across the board.

That's why the vast bulk of guys who start fail horribly. There are two key skills to making money online if you're not marketing your own product. And those are being able to enough build traffic to your site to climb to the top of Google searches for the relevant keywords (SEO); and the ability to write excellent content (basically selling your product convincingly if it is IM). Very few guys can do one let alone both (some like myself team up with someone else who "completes" the package to so speak).

[joehoya]

(03-13-2012 04:10 PM)Kitsune Wrote:  

...Er. That is a bit about the truth of internet based business, but as a bit of a summary;
1) Keep away from Marketing other peoples stuff, make your own stuff and let other people be the internet marketers.
...

I am going to challenge you on this specific point. As a software developer, I used to hold this belief, which is ironic, since prior to this was also an internet marketer for other people's products. I advocated only marketing your own products, not just because you keep more of the profits, but because you have more control over your business.

I was a fairly successful affiliate marketer until the main affiliate program I was working with changed their terms resulting in a significant drop in my income. Because I did not control the product I was selling, I did not control my business. I was merely their salesman. It took me six months to recover after switching to another affiliate program that was selling a similar product.

So given that experience, and given the fact that I now work full time as a developer and can create my own products, why would I challenge what you have said? My change of heart came from both listening to two separate entrepreneurs (one of whom has been a mentor to me) offer advice on how to use affiliate marketing as a learning/market research tool for a product that you may be developing yourself.

Essentially, you use someone else's product, that you market as an affiliate, to both learn more about what the market wants AND build up a mailing list and highly ranked sites to market YOUR PRODUCT when it is ready. You can also figure out if there is a viable market for your product BEFORE you invest time and money developing it.

Let me give you an example. Let's say you wanted to move to Colombia and start your own Colombian teens porn site. To actually get your site going, you would have to build the site, get a merchant account for processing credit cards (probably CCBill), then pay your models for about 10 scenes to be made before your site even goes live, so that a potential customer sees the value in joining.

You are going to keep spending money having new scenes produced every few weeks, so that the site looks like it is being regularly updated. Your total expenditure could EASILY be in the $10K-$20K range (and that is low) before you even know if your site will be successful.

Now, instead of just starting your site with no understanding of the market, lets say that you start out as an affiliate marketer for similar sites. By acting as an affiliate BEFORE starting your own site, you will be able to gain a MUCH BETTER understanding of how the market is for that niche. You will have at least some ideas of what kind of sales you can expect, and what your clients like. You will also have developed advertising vehicles that can be easily converted from marketing the affiliate product to your own product.

Most importantly, you will learn whether this is a viable market. You may discover that the teen market is too saturated and folks aren't looking for Latin teens specifically. You may also discover that a Latin MILF market may be a better choice. You may discover that the costs in time and effort for running this business just isn't worth the return on your investment.

Most importantly, you will learn all of these things BEFORE you drop $10K-$20K and who knows how many hours developing the product. This doesn't just apply to porn, obviously. This could apply to information products, like books and courses, software, the list goes on and on.

Understanding your market and how to reach them is probably the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT differentiation between successful businesses and failures.

[Kitsune]

Yeah, fair enough. I don't disagree with it as far as dipping your toes or doing your market research. In fact using SEO and Adwords figures is becoming a key part of any market research, in my opinion.

I was talking about long term business strategy in the context of 4 hour work week principles when I said that. Eventually if you want big money you'll have to move away from affiliate marketing, or at least expand to include other facets. This is, among other things, for the reasons you suggested: You don't control the product, you can't scale the product, so on and so forth.

I should also add as a caveat that if you're looking to make 500 dollars a month online, affiliate marketing might well be for you too. I'm just saying it isn't a viable long-term business strategy in and of itself. Using it to lead into other things is fine, as is using it as part of a wider strategy is fine as well.

As far as investing, if you want to be a businessman eventually you're going to have to put up with the negatives that being in business comes with. One of those is hunting for capital, whether your own or someone elses. As far as funding goes, it's a crucial issue for internet guys, because banks/investors are really reluctant to put up cash for net ventures compared with traditional businesses. Again, until you start investing time and energy into these things, you're not businessman, you're a toe dipper. Most of IM is for toe dippers.

Quote:

That's why the vast bulk of guys who start fail horribly. There are two key skills to making money online if you're not marketing your own product. And those are being able to enough build traffic to your site to climb to the top of Google searches for the relevant keywords (SEO); and the ability to write excellent content (basically selling your product convincingly if it is IM). Very few guys can do one let alone both (some like myself team up with someone else who "completes" the package to so speak).

There are a lot more skills you're going to have to develop if you want to take money making on the net to the next stage. It just isn't as simple as build a website and write good copy. I mean, it is those things, but with more work you can expand (and make cash) on an exponentially bigger scale.

[Saladin]

(03-14-2012 06:39 AM)P Dog Wrote:  

(03-14-2012 06:31 AM)Kitsune Wrote:  

I agree, but my major bug bear with Internet Marketers is that they don't do most of the stuff you listed.

If you get IM'ers to download a template business plan, most of them don't have a clue about any of it. They don't do market research, they don't think about what service they're providing, and they don't think about anything other than how they're going to make money. (They don't even think about that too well.) Because the barriers to entry are so much lower (No overheads, no real ongoing costs) people half arse it all across the board.

That's why the vast bulk of guys who start fail horribly. There are two key skills to making money online if you're not marketing your own product. And those are being able to enough build traffic to your site to climb to the top of Google searches for the relevant keywords (SEO); and the ability to write excellent content (basically selling your product convincingly if it is IM). Very few guys can do one let alone both (some like myself team up with someone else who "completes" the package to so speak).

Thats a simplified version.

Here's what it really is(what P Dog and me are doing)/

Traffic generation(organic or paid). We're using SEO to get organic traffic to our sites.

Once you get the traffic you have to convert the traffic.

This is where web design + split testing + sales copy skills + solid content comes in. P Dog writes well and thats where he comes in. I take care of the rest.

Once you get the traffic to do what you want you essentially make cash.

Essentially its the same as any other business, where you solve a problem and offer value while being compensated for it.

Now thats just one business model.

The real money is in selling shovels in the gold rush(Selling IM products) or in providing Offline Marketing services.

Most IMers do a horribly shitty job. Anybody who puts in effort and outsources his weak points will do well.

[worldwidetraveler]

(03-14-2012 03:08 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

I wish I could be a internet pimp like you guys. Seriously. Last night I talked to 2....that's right 2 combat pilots. They were cool cats from other countries. We talked for hours. 1 dude had a HUGE rundown on W. Aussie jobs. These guys want me to work with them. However, I told them I only work 4 hours a week, and I use a screen to protect myself. Bwhahhahahahahhaha.

Don't worry Ali, someone still has to dig the ditches.

[mofo]

(03-14-2012 02:36 AM)P Dog Wrote:  

(03-13-2012 02:34 PM)mofo Wrote:  

(03-11-2012 11:50 PM)P Dog Wrote:  

(03-09-2012 02:55 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

No one on on this forum is getting rich from Tim Ferris.

I know for a fact that this bit is incorrect.

Define rich.

On the forum itself, over six figures a year and counting. Which isn't "rich", but out-earns guys who've been slaving away in white-collar positions for years. Outside the forum, the most I know of (not including Steve Pavlina) is half a million a year, the majority of which is from IM, the remainder SEO.

It's really funny how many "Making money online" deniers there are, just like the "Game deniers" that we all know are wrong.

Half a million a year is the best you know? That's not a lot.

Is this the end figure that you are aiming for?

Is half a million a year enough for you?

Even if it is I don't think SEO and article marketing is a good way to get there.

[worldwidetraveler]

(03-14-2012 02:39 PM)mofo Wrote:  

Half a million a year is the best you know? That's not a lot.

Is this the end figure that you are aiming for?

Is half a million a year enough for you?

You have to remember where PDog is coming from. He is a young guy who is just starting down the entrepreneurial road.

Lot's of people think making 50k a year is big money. Once they hit it, then it isn't a big deal.

Hell, maybe he is happy making 100k and partying his ass off in other countries while working little.

If it funds his lifestyle choice then he is a success in my book. No need to pull out your cock with a tape measure here. We all may want different lifestyles.

[Greek kamaki]

International playboys usually do not work.They are the sons of rich oligarchs etc.A mafia type with blood in his hand will never become international playboy for him it is pussy like.He gets his girls on demand.
I do not have so much respect for international playboys they usually do not deserve their wealth and in most cases it is easy to outsmart them because in pick up you need to do all the job yourself you cannot delegate.
International playboys rely on privacy for isolation they enter venues which you are not allowed to enter.

[mofo]

(03-14-2012 02:45 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(03-14-2012 02:39 PM)mofo Wrote:  

Half a million a year is the best you know? That's not a lot.

Is this the end figure that you are aiming for?

Is half a million a year enough for you?

You have to remember where PDog is coming from. He is a young guy who is just starting down the entrepreneurial road.

Lot's of people think making 50k a year is big money. Once they hit it, then it isn't a big deal.

Hell, maybe he is happy making 100k and partying his ass off in other countries while working little.

If it funds his lifestyle choice then he is a success in my book. No need to pull out your cock with a tape measure here. We all may want different lifestyles.

He is a young guy , so what? He still should choose a better way to spend his time. Being young is not an excuse for making a bad decision and I believe that doing SEO and article marketing is not the best decision.

The problem is that it is extremely hard to make 100k a year online with seo and article marketing if it is possible at all.

I know that we all have different goals.

What's your career/financial goal P?

[worldwidetraveler]

(03-14-2012 03:02 PM)mofo Wrote:  

He is a young guy , so what? He still should choose a better way to spend his time. Being young is not an excuse for making a bad decision and I believe that doing SEO and article marketing is not the best decision.

The problem is that it is extremely hard to make 100k a year online with seo and article marketing if it is possible at all.

I know that we all have different goals.

What's your career/financial goal P?

How about you let him decide what is the best decision.

Even if he does SEO and articles he will still learn some skills he can use in other areas. I don't see why he can't make good money out of SEO if he was offering services to businesses. I don't do that stuff but many make good money doing it.

I gather you just knew every correct way of making money without having to experience failures?

All you tell him is to get a job or start a business. Great insight man.

[mofo]

(03-14-2012 03:11 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(03-14-2012 03:02 PM)mofo Wrote:  

He is a young guy , so what? He still should choose a better way to spend his time. Being young is not an excuse for making a bad decision and I believe that doing SEO and article marketing is not the best decision.

The problem is that it is extremely hard to make 100k a year online with seo and article marketing if it is possible at all.

I know that we all have different goals.

What's your career/financial goal P?

How about you let him decide what is the best decision.

Even if he does SEO and articles he will still learn some skills he can use in other areas. I don't see why he can't make good money out of SEO if he was offering services to businesses. I don't do that stuff but many make good money doing it.

I gather you just knew every correct way of making money without having to experience failures?

All you tell him is to get a job or start a business. Great insight man.

[/quote]

How about you let him decide what is the best decision.

[/quote]

Did I force him to do what I tell him to do?

[worldwidetraveler]

(03-14-2012 03:23 PM)mofo Wrote:  

Did I force him to do what I tell him to do? WTF are you talking about?

No, you're just getting a little pushy with your advice.

Quote:

Bottom line is this:

Get a sales job or start a real business or get a multimillionaire mentor.

This is the single best piece of advice I was given as a young cat and I can give to young cats.

Which did you choose? How is it working out for you?

Are you able to afford apartments when traveling now or do you still rely on couchsurfing/hostels and budget $1500 a month when traveling?

[mofo]

Don't you like my advice?

[worldwidetraveler]

(03-14-2012 03:37 PM)mofo Wrote:  

I'm not travelling at all these days. I'm focusing my energies on my career.

Realize that this argument is not about me. Look at the facts.

Don't you like my advice?

Is that a sales career or did you start a business?

Nope, the advice is fine albeit limited. Kind of like telling an antisocial guy to talk to a girl if you want to get laid.

I am just trying to see where you are coming from since you talk as if you are making some good coin.

[mofo]

(03-14-2012 03:42 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Nope, the advice is fine albeit limited. Kind of like telling an antisocial guy to talk to a girl if you want to get laid.

I believe in the KISS way of life.

[worldwidetraveler]

(03-14-2012 03:46 PM)mofo Wrote:  

I believe in the KISS way of life.

I know a guy that sells seo services and pocketing 70k (last I spoke with him) a month.

He has the whole process down to where he doesn't do much.

[mofo]

(03-14-2012 03:57 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(03-14-2012 03:46 PM)mofo Wrote:  

I believe in the KISS way of life.

I know a guy that sells seo services and pocketing 70k (last I spoke with him) a month.

He has the whole process down to where he doesn't do much.

That's great. That's more of a real business.

When I said SEO and article marketing I meant the 'let's make a website, rank it, put on some affiliate ads and adsense and make some money' thing

[worldwidetraveler]

(03-14-2012 04:08 PM)mofo Wrote:  

That's great. That's more of a real business.

When I said SEO and article marketing I meant the 'let's make a website, rank it, put on some affiliate ads and adsense and make some money' shit.

I never bought into that approach either. But here is the kicker, the guy making 70k a month learned seo from doing stuff like what you wrote.

[mofo]

(03-14-2012 04:17 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(03-14-2012 04:08 PM)mofo Wrote:  

That's great. That's more of a real business.

When I said SEO and article marketing I meant the 'let's make a website, rank it, put on some affiliate ads and adsense and make some money' shit.

I never bought into that approach either. But here is the kicker, the guy making 70k a month learned seo from doing stuff like what you wrote.

Good.