[Hencredible Casanova]

(01-29-2012 01:10 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

No, I didn't. That's a legit consequence-part of the reason customer service is so good here is because it is not very difficult to sue someone for providing poor service or harming you in some way.

Yes, you did. I also disagree with your conclusion. I don't think customer service has anything to do with lawsuits. Rather, the US is a business-oriented economy and in order to grow and expand and to survive against competitors, you have to provide excellent service. This realization occurred through "trial and error" over the course of many decades. I actually studied this in marketing and have read several books about the development of customer-oriented business. The success of these ideas led to the growth and development of the service economy.

The certitude with which you cling to your unsubstantiated claims is pretty laughable. You're a smart guy, though misguided. You will learn as you get older (I'm confident).

[/quote]
As an individual, where else would you say is better place to live?

(01-29-2012 01:10 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

Off the top of my head? Norway.

Yeah right! That has to be the most laughable thing I've ever heard. This is the epitome of an ignorant statement. You've CLEARLY NEVER been to Norway. How reckless of you to say that. You must still be in college. I used to think just like you. I looked at data and read articles and was extremely critical of the US. You think if Norway had a country as diverse as the US, it would even have a high standard? Try being the guy you are and live in Norway. I guarantee you will come back. Can you imagine working there? You think you can really make moves out there? You want to be taxed at 50%? Why aren't you over there now? Be serious. Really think about what you're saying instead of simply analyzing data from the chair you're sitting on. Go to Norway and then get back to me, sir.

[/quote]
You may not like NYC, but as far options and stuff to do, does any other city have as much to offer? I haven't found one.

(01-29-2012 01:10 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

Lots of stuff =/= superior city.

There's a lot more to it than that.

Lol. That's your "rebuttal"? That's the epitome of lazy thinking. Wow.

(01-28-2012 10:26 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

Also, the tradeoffs you have mentioned are no longer relevant to today's Europe. Leaders in Western Europe are desperately calling for changes in their labor structure to mimic the US. They simply can no longer afford the safety net that was only possible due to NATO and the Marshall Plan.

(01-29-2012 01:10 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

Yes and no.

In Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain (the nations doing most of the struggling and economic contracting in the EU), this may be the case.

In Sweden, Norway, Germany, Finland, Switzerland and Austria (among others)? Less so.

As for other less fortunate nations...

That's an extremely lazy response that doesn't even relate to my assertion. No surprise you didn't mention anything about NATO or the Marshall Plan. Very telling actually.

In Spain, unemployment is now around 25% (that's just the general figure). In the UK, they have passed a law that forces young people perceived to be lazy to work for free. The EU is developing a framework that makes it easier for people to get fired.

(01-29-2012 01:10 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

...that only means its easier to get fired there than it was prior to the modern Eurozone crisis (which was triggered by the American made 08-09 recession, btw). That doesn't mean it is easier to get fired there than the USA, nor that it will be.

Even with austerity measures, nations like France are going to maintain significantly larger welfare states and safety nets than the USA currently does. Even in present-day crisis Spain, your average worker receives more mandatory vacation time and other benefits than our own do.

It's still going in the direction of the US and will continue to go that route. You've already seen the increase in the retirement age and you will also see severe cutbacks in labor benefits. This will only continue to get worse over time. It has to occur gradually, otherwise there would be anarchy in the streets.

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In the public discourse in many Western European countries, leaders are pointing to the US as an example to follow.

(01-29-2012 01:10 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

And they won't get there.

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Lazy thinking, once again. You're on a roll. You must have a paper to write for class.

They also won't grow like the US or be as rich as us as a result. No country in Europe can even match the scale and scope and wealth of the US. Apples and oranges bro. You would do well to remember that.

Even French President Sarkozy is said to be a not so secret admirer of the American system.

(01-29-2012 01:10 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

That was prior to the crisis. Keep in mind, it was the Americans who put them where they are (sovereign debt was an issue prior to 2009, but it was the recession that triggered this particular chain of events we see now).
Not everyone is happy with that, and not everyone (as a result) wants to mimic America completely the rest of the way forward the way you're implying.

Talking out of your ass, once again. Have you even seen Sarkozy interviews? Where's your empirical evidence for "that was before the crisis?" Even after the crisis. What are you talking? I've watched several interviews with Sarkozy. He may wear one hat in France but he wears another when speaking with our media.


[/quote]With respect to lawsuits re: physicians. I can tell you without question that the US is a far better place to be a doctor than in Europe.[/quote]


Countries like France and Germany don't have the rigorous medical school path that doctors in the US have to undergo. In those countries, you enter medical school directly after high school (no undergrad), and though the education is largely free, you can only expect to make a middle class salary once you begin practicing ($60,000-$70,000/year). In the US, one goes to college, and then med school, and then residency, and then finally as a practicing doctor. Though many have loads of debt to repay, there's no cap on how much they can earn. A good doctor can easily rise to the top 1% income class in the course of a few years. [/quote]

(01-29-2012 01:10 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

Sorry, I'm not convinced.

The lack of the rigorous and insanely costly gauntlet seems like a massive benefit to me, offsetting the lower potential earnings for the average physician outside of the states. You underestimate the very negative impact that debt has on livelihoods for physicians-this article describes it quite well. That, and the length of their path puts tremendous negative pressure on their quality of life until they finally break through it all in their early-mid 30's.

The American doctor has a tremendously average higher debt load than just about anyone else. When you combine undergrad + med school, you could be talking about $300k+ easily-that isn't uncommon. Your hours are absurd through residency, and you can't overcome these issues until after you've completed 7+ years of post-undergrad schooling and training. You usually don't see the top 1% until your mid to late 40's, and that's assuming you're good-not every physician (or even most of them) will make it to that income bracket. That, and you still have debts to repay.

This is without accounting for the expense that medical malpractice and insurance puts on physicians here.

Specialists in the Netherlands and Australia actually make more than their American counterparts, while general practitioners are most well paid in the USA. Germany is way down there in both categories, but Canadian, French and British doctors (though lower paid than in the USA) are still paid quite well. Combine their lower-but-still good pay with less rigorous/lengthy paths to work and vastly lower (to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars) costs to enter their professions plus a stronger welfare state (pensions and guaranteed vacations) and I'm simply not convinced that its better to be a doctor in the US than in any of these nations I've just mentioned (save Germany).

You actually proved my point. US doctors make more, have more freedom to begin a practice and to live out their dreams. Geez. You could have done that in far less verbose manner. Kids, I tell ya.[/quote]

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That European welfare system is spiraling out of control and is on its way out. Those good days are now gone and they won't be coming back. The problems in the US are relatively manageable.

(01-29-2012 01:10 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

No.

Conservatives would love for this to be true, but that isn't the case. Reality is as follows:

1. Welfare states have been rapidly expanding in recent years (particularly during the bubble years before the crash). That expansion will stop throughout Europe.
2. You will see serious contraction in a handful of European states, particularly Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece. Here, welfare states will get significantly smaller, though they'll likely remain larger in scope than in the USA (read: don't expect American style healthcare, mandatory vacation and education policies to fully take hold in any of these nations, certainly not to our extent).
3. Not every nation in Europe is in the shitter-in fact, most are not, and quite a few are in positions similar to that of the USA in recent years. France isn't in a great place, but it isn't about to fall off of a cliff either (dealt with a downgrade but only by one agency, will see some austerity, etc). Many other European nations are doing significantly better. Their states will no longer grow, but will remain largely intact.

You're also forgetting the interconnectedness of the global economy. As I've said more than once, Europe is where it is now because of the USA-the recession (which originated here) triggered their sovereign debt crisis (which, admittedly, could have been caused earlier-sovereign debt's been a dormant issue in Europe for a while, it was simply America that lit the gunpowder at this particular time).
Europe, to some extent, goes as America goes. If America comes up (as you're predicting it will), then so will many of the struggling European economies, a fact that will bode well for the maintenance of their welfare states.

The welfare state isn't going anywhere. At the end of this crisis, your average worker in Europe is still going to have a larger safety net and more benefits than his American peer. American economic improvement will just make this more likely.

Any true future collapse of the welfare state will come as a result of demographic imbalances (read: not enough youth), not inherent inadequacies of the model.

The European welfare state is failing bro. Had it not been for the EU, most of the countries you mentioned would be completely done. Italy has had 0% growth for the last DECADE. The EU simply moves money from rich countries to support the poorly performing ones. It's a failure, by any objective measure.


To be honest, your opinion has absolutely no legitimacy because you've never been to these countries. I want to hear what you have to say after you're a few years older and have some passport stamps under your belt to supplement your lazy research (which anyone can do by camping out in front of wikipedia for a weekend).

Again, I've actually traveled to these places, and speak with friends and policymakers who actually live there. I'm not speaking out of my ass and sitting in a dorm room reading The Economist. I actually have empirical evidence from actual experience, sir. Get off your high horse and actually see the world and then get back to me. One.