Hi guys,
I'd like to share some of my thoughts and experiences with my Asian ex-girlfriend for a number of reasons. I think there's too much nonsense being written about Asian women as opposed to Western women. Some denigrate them, many others pedestalize them and only write about their good features but never present the challenges and their downsides. I dislike both attitudes as I believe Asian women do have a lot of merit but we also should not be encouraging everyone to get Asian girlfriends or wives as there are many caveats.
I'm not addressing this to folks who just want to head to Asia to bang. This is meant for those who are looking for a long-term relationship and who are mariage-minded, hoping to find someone to have kids with. So please keep that in mind. I also am not writing this to demonize my ex. She was not an all-out evil person but she certainly was not the angelic, submissive Asian girl she pretended to be, and which many people seem to think about Asian women. I also don't claim to be blameless. I made mistakes as well so to some degree I am also to blame due to my ignorance.
Let me state my position here. As a general rule, I think we are all better off finding a woman from our own country or broader culture, and sticking to our own race, especially if you plan on having kids, and especially if the notion of perpetuating Western civilization is important to you. However, desperate times call for desperate measures, which is why I was willing to take the risk with an Asian girl and why it may be a valid option for others, too.
Nevertheless, be careful what you wish for. Here's some of my observations from my relationship with an Indonesian girl whom I met as she was studying in Europe. Note that she belonged to the Chinese minority, had a Catholic upbringing, and belonged to what I'd describe as an upper-middle class family. As a Catholic, I appreciated our shared religious beliefs and I believe it did help us overcome certain problems and forgive each other. However, for those of us who are religious, beware. Religious girls can be some of the most hypocritical women out there.
AWALT. Seriously. You'd better start believing it.
So here's the good:
She was a calm, self-composed, polite, and reserved person. Very focused on what she intended to achieve, goal-oriented, diligent, and intelligent. Very headstrong, which could be a good or a bad thing depending on the issue, but I prefer a woman who knows what she wants to a flaky one. She was loyal and committed and very supportive of me initially. Conservative in terms of outlook on gender roles and family. She'd cook, clean, and stated she wanted to be a mother and have several kids. In that, she came very close to my ideal, including in terms of looks. After she supported me during a difficult period, I asked her hand. However, it quickly went downhill from there.
Here's the bad:
The passive agressiveness and saving face, pushed to the extreme. This involves a number of things. For one, there was lots of lying. Not necessarily flat-out lies but giving you half-truths and deliberately withholding information. Very elusive and evasive behavior. Whenever a misunderstanding arose, there'd be the silent treatment which could go on for days or even weeks. Whenever something was wrong, rather than discussing the matter openly, it would be dismissed and you'd be expected to let go of it. There was also the issue of major indecisiveness. I rarely got a straight "yes" or a straight "no".
If we're talking something minor, sure, just let it pass. Don't make a fuss about it as it'll be seen as a weakness. NOT, however, when we're talking major relational issues. Rather than getting it out in the open and resolving the issue, things would be repressed to the point where it would drive you up the walls. Heaven forbid you get angry, as even so much as raising your voice in frustration would be followed by threats of ending the relationship, more silent treatment, or just generally blaming you for being unable to control your emotions, and disrespecting her culture. The Culture Card.
The Culture Card is one that you should never allow them to use. Cultural differences should be discussed when they arise and if need be, you find a compromise that works for both. End of the story. You should never, ever be expected to simply conform to her culture and forsake your own identity as a Westerner. Have some self-respect. I was willing to go at great lengths to adapt to her culture, and I think you should be willing to make that effort in the beginning. However, if this goes on and she doesn't reciprocate by making an effort on her part to understand your culture, you're turning yourself into doormat.
Don't let them use the Culture Card as an excuse for their erratic behavior. If you're not well-acquainted with the culture or the language, there will be lots of confusion as to whether the problem is an issue of personality or truly a cultural thing. A girl can easily take advantage of this confusion to excuse any of her defects and bullshit games by brushing them off as a cultural matter, and blame you for being unwilling to accept or understand. You have to be firm on this one and make sure there's a clear line of communication. This is where I admit I failed in the beginning as I wasn't well-armed enough.
Another issue is finances and career. Asian women being more traditional they will expect you to hold a job and offer financial security. Nothing wrong with that. However, as soon as I got engaged, my ex started meddling with my finances and job choices to the point where buying a friend a beer made her jealous. I was "reminded" non-stop about saving money. Which I did anyhow but even so, she'd just keep repeating it ad nauseam. If I ever bought myself a treat with my hard-earned money, it would be followed by the same passive agressive remarks on saving money or the silent treatment, regardless of all the moral and pratical support I gave her as she was studying, and treating her with love and respect.
In fact, she'd push me to get higher education, effectively questioning my degree, and my general worth, regardless of the fact I had a car, an appartment, was saving up, and had been working for some pretty reputable companies. Now, I didn't have much stability, and neither was I able to save much despite a very simple lifestyle, but she was unable to understand how expensive life actually is in the West, and how difficult it's become to find a stable job. So rather than acknowledging and encouraging my efforts to keep improving my situation, she'd criticize my choices, and be pushing me to get another degree and whatnot. This didn't stem from a genuine concern for me, as I initially thought and as she and her mother would later claim, but from self-centered concerns about her future with me.
Long story short, I was deemed unfit for not being affluent enough. These constant reproaches, criticisms and mind games from her, her parents and her Indonesian friends and acquaintances were gradually destroying my self-esteem. I'd be questioning myself non-stop to the point where it was paralyzing me, while she would keep on playing the innocent, polite and well-behaved Asian girl in public. Nobody ever questioned her and no one would ever call her out for being inconsiderate toward me as a Westerner.
Which brings me to her family. Her mother, in particular. She was largely behind all the insinuations about money and career, as well as the constant insults about supposedly being unable to control my emotions, and not respecting the culture. She would talk to me while calling her daughter and tell me what to do with my life. Now, let me explain something here. Family is big in Asia. Parents are a lot more involved in the relationship choices their kids make. Nothing wrong about that, per se. If they talk to you, it could be a good sign. If they're willing to meet you, which they did, that's even better. You will have to make an effort at gaining their trust and respect if you want to marry her daughter.
However, none of this means you should allow yourself to get pushed around and openly criticized by them. In my ignorance and because of the Culture Card, I allowed them to do this to me until it exploded in their face and I left her. You have to draw a line somewhere, but when you do, you may well find that they (or your girlfriend) will play the "Culture Card" against you to make you look like the inconsiderate guy who doesn't respect their ways. If they do that, forget about it. Especially if your girlfriend is going to listen to them rather than you. And believe me, she more than likely will listen to her parents.
This ended up destroying my relationship. I wasn't taking the constant meddling with my life and the constant criticism of my every move anymore. Mind you, I did meet her parents. They even met mine. But even so, while they were in Europe, things took a bad turn. A misunderstanding occurred. I corrected my ex. She emotionally blackmailed me by going into crying mode and her mother turned against me. I was treated like a criminal but I wouldn't back down. All sorts of insults were made against me and if it weren't for her father who was well aware of cultural differences but was incredibly cucked by his "submissive" Asian wife, it would have ended right there. Only thanks to his intervention did we manage to talk it through.
However, a few months later, her mother returned to Europe. A similar misunderstanding occurred (or was provoked). I privately expressed my feelings about it to my ex in as considerate a manner possible, and I proposed a way to solve things and move forward to repair the relationship. But no matter how politely and respectfully I tried to put my criticism of her mother's behavior toward me, there was a total unwillingness to listen and to acknowledge the issue. I pointed out that I had to comply with all sorts of demands, supposedly for "cultural reasons", but that it was never reciprocated as neither she nor her parents ever took into consideration my own parents' concerns and wishes as to our future marriage, and they rarely ever put themselves in my shoes to understand where I was coming from as a Westerner who had never set foot in Asia at that point.
And this is a big one. As a Westerner, you are in a weak position. Her family has her back. Your family doesn't. Or at least, not in the same way. They will not be openly making demands toward your girlfriend the way her parents will toward you. Western parents trust you to do your own thing and make your own choices, whereas the Asian girl's family will be fully involving themselves in where the relationship is going. What we see as a strength (independence and individual responsibility) turns out to be a disadvantage in this type of setting, if her family is ill-disposed. This doesn't change once you're married. They will always be there. This can be good or bad depending on whom you're dealing with, but in my case it turned out to be a stumbling block.
To illustrate just how far this can go, I know of a guy who desperately wanted to get married to an Indonesian girl who had been studying in Europe. He would travel abroad to regularly meet her but she would never make an effort to visit him, despite being from a rich family. Her Muslim parents were skeptical so he went as far as to convert to Islam just to be accepted. They married in Indonesia and had a big, fat traditional Indonesian wedding as this was her mother's wish. It must have cost a fortune. His family headed over there to attend. Notice how the Western party would comply with all demands and the Asian party dominated the entire relationship. Quite a price to pay for a woman who may eventually divorce rape you as they now live in Europe.
Long story short, we need to stop pedestalizing Asian women. Women are women, everywhere. AWALT. Asian women have many good traits and many of them are worth it but if you want to succeed with them, I would strongly advise you to learn as much as you can about the culture beforehand, and never to forget that almost as soon as you start dating an Asian girl, her family WILL get involved and you will have to deal with them sooner or later. Face saving and the passive aggressiveness that comes with it may also be a good reason not to get involved with an Asian girl, especially if you are the type of person who prefers directness and clear communication rather hints and reading between the lines.
Note that I was in a relationship with someone from a rather affluent family. In fact, her family was better off compared to mine. Many of us Westerners don't realize how much wealthier many Asians are these days. In fact, I was shocked by the amount of materialism I witnessed from them. I recall how her mother would spend a fortune on luxury items in front of me while I was effectively being told to "save up, and shut up". The only thing they cared about was money and success. Nothing wrong with either of those but I do take issue with the importance being attached to those at the expense of other values.
Many Asians seem to judge you simply by your wallet and not by your personal merit. You may be a morally upright person who works hard and is humble, but money trumps everything. I realize I may be broad-brushing here, but this is the overall tendency I witnessed and it needs to be said. This is true of many cultures, of course, but I found it to be very pronounced with Asian people. No offense. Because of their shame-based culture and indirectness, they will be nice, polite and even very open toward you publicly but don't ever mistake this for genuine kindness. Don't be naive. You need to be on your guard as there is a massive amount of pretense and back-stabbing.
That said, depending on the girl and her family, it may well be worth the risk. Just don't delude yourself into thinking in black and white terms about Asian women. There's good, there's bad, and if you're not on guard, you may well end up marrying a woman who will be domineering the relationship and undermining your authority. Asian women are NOT submissive if by "submissive" you believe they will simply do whatever you tell them to and will always respect your authority. As with any other women, you will have to assert yourself.
A final note. Think about the kids. Even if things work out fine between the two of you, your kids will still be mixed-race and bi-cultural. How will they deal with having two cultures? Where will you raise them? What languages will they be taught? Are you willing to settle in her country? You can forget about obtaining citizenship. I know a person in this situation. Also, are you willing to sacrifice your cultural background? Depending on the country, the kids may have to choose their nationality at some point as certain countries do not allow dual citizenship. If your culture or ethnicity is important to you and you want to pass it on to your kids, you'd better think twice before getting involved with an Asian woman.
Any questions or comments are welcome.
I'd like to share some of my thoughts and experiences with my Asian ex-girlfriend for a number of reasons. I think there's too much nonsense being written about Asian women as opposed to Western women. Some denigrate them, many others pedestalize them and only write about their good features but never present the challenges and their downsides. I dislike both attitudes as I believe Asian women do have a lot of merit but we also should not be encouraging everyone to get Asian girlfriends or wives as there are many caveats.
I'm not addressing this to folks who just want to head to Asia to bang. This is meant for those who are looking for a long-term relationship and who are mariage-minded, hoping to find someone to have kids with. So please keep that in mind. I also am not writing this to demonize my ex. She was not an all-out evil person but she certainly was not the angelic, submissive Asian girl she pretended to be, and which many people seem to think about Asian women. I also don't claim to be blameless. I made mistakes as well so to some degree I am also to blame due to my ignorance.
Let me state my position here. As a general rule, I think we are all better off finding a woman from our own country or broader culture, and sticking to our own race, especially if you plan on having kids, and especially if the notion of perpetuating Western civilization is important to you. However, desperate times call for desperate measures, which is why I was willing to take the risk with an Asian girl and why it may be a valid option for others, too.
Nevertheless, be careful what you wish for. Here's some of my observations from my relationship with an Indonesian girl whom I met as she was studying in Europe. Note that she belonged to the Chinese minority, had a Catholic upbringing, and belonged to what I'd describe as an upper-middle class family. As a Catholic, I appreciated our shared religious beliefs and I believe it did help us overcome certain problems and forgive each other. However, for those of us who are religious, beware. Religious girls can be some of the most hypocritical women out there.
AWALT. Seriously. You'd better start believing it.
So here's the good:
She was a calm, self-composed, polite, and reserved person. Very focused on what she intended to achieve, goal-oriented, diligent, and intelligent. Very headstrong, which could be a good or a bad thing depending on the issue, but I prefer a woman who knows what she wants to a flaky one. She was loyal and committed and very supportive of me initially. Conservative in terms of outlook on gender roles and family. She'd cook, clean, and stated she wanted to be a mother and have several kids. In that, she came very close to my ideal, including in terms of looks. After she supported me during a difficult period, I asked her hand. However, it quickly went downhill from there.
Here's the bad:
The passive agressiveness and saving face, pushed to the extreme. This involves a number of things. For one, there was lots of lying. Not necessarily flat-out lies but giving you half-truths and deliberately withholding information. Very elusive and evasive behavior. Whenever a misunderstanding arose, there'd be the silent treatment which could go on for days or even weeks. Whenever something was wrong, rather than discussing the matter openly, it would be dismissed and you'd be expected to let go of it. There was also the issue of major indecisiveness. I rarely got a straight "yes" or a straight "no".
If we're talking something minor, sure, just let it pass. Don't make a fuss about it as it'll be seen as a weakness. NOT, however, when we're talking major relational issues. Rather than getting it out in the open and resolving the issue, things would be repressed to the point where it would drive you up the walls. Heaven forbid you get angry, as even so much as raising your voice in frustration would be followed by threats of ending the relationship, more silent treatment, or just generally blaming you for being unable to control your emotions, and disrespecting her culture. The Culture Card.
The Culture Card is one that you should never allow them to use. Cultural differences should be discussed when they arise and if need be, you find a compromise that works for both. End of the story. You should never, ever be expected to simply conform to her culture and forsake your own identity as a Westerner. Have some self-respect. I was willing to go at great lengths to adapt to her culture, and I think you should be willing to make that effort in the beginning. However, if this goes on and she doesn't reciprocate by making an effort on her part to understand your culture, you're turning yourself into doormat.
Don't let them use the Culture Card as an excuse for their erratic behavior. If you're not well-acquainted with the culture or the language, there will be lots of confusion as to whether the problem is an issue of personality or truly a cultural thing. A girl can easily take advantage of this confusion to excuse any of her defects and bullshit games by brushing them off as a cultural matter, and blame you for being unwilling to accept or understand. You have to be firm on this one and make sure there's a clear line of communication. This is where I admit I failed in the beginning as I wasn't well-armed enough.
Another issue is finances and career. Asian women being more traditional they will expect you to hold a job and offer financial security. Nothing wrong with that. However, as soon as I got engaged, my ex started meddling with my finances and job choices to the point where buying a friend a beer made her jealous. I was "reminded" non-stop about saving money. Which I did anyhow but even so, she'd just keep repeating it ad nauseam. If I ever bought myself a treat with my hard-earned money, it would be followed by the same passive agressive remarks on saving money or the silent treatment, regardless of all the moral and pratical support I gave her as she was studying, and treating her with love and respect.
In fact, she'd push me to get higher education, effectively questioning my degree, and my general worth, regardless of the fact I had a car, an appartment, was saving up, and had been working for some pretty reputable companies. Now, I didn't have much stability, and neither was I able to save much despite a very simple lifestyle, but she was unable to understand how expensive life actually is in the West, and how difficult it's become to find a stable job. So rather than acknowledging and encouraging my efforts to keep improving my situation, she'd criticize my choices, and be pushing me to get another degree and whatnot. This didn't stem from a genuine concern for me, as I initially thought and as she and her mother would later claim, but from self-centered concerns about her future with me.
Long story short, I was deemed unfit for not being affluent enough. These constant reproaches, criticisms and mind games from her, her parents and her Indonesian friends and acquaintances were gradually destroying my self-esteem. I'd be questioning myself non-stop to the point where it was paralyzing me, while she would keep on playing the innocent, polite and well-behaved Asian girl in public. Nobody ever questioned her and no one would ever call her out for being inconsiderate toward me as a Westerner.
Which brings me to her family. Her mother, in particular. She was largely behind all the insinuations about money and career, as well as the constant insults about supposedly being unable to control my emotions, and not respecting the culture. She would talk to me while calling her daughter and tell me what to do with my life. Now, let me explain something here. Family is big in Asia. Parents are a lot more involved in the relationship choices their kids make. Nothing wrong about that, per se. If they talk to you, it could be a good sign. If they're willing to meet you, which they did, that's even better. You will have to make an effort at gaining their trust and respect if you want to marry her daughter.
However, none of this means you should allow yourself to get pushed around and openly criticized by them. In my ignorance and because of the Culture Card, I allowed them to do this to me until it exploded in their face and I left her. You have to draw a line somewhere, but when you do, you may well find that they (or your girlfriend) will play the "Culture Card" against you to make you look like the inconsiderate guy who doesn't respect their ways. If they do that, forget about it. Especially if your girlfriend is going to listen to them rather than you. And believe me, she more than likely will listen to her parents.
This ended up destroying my relationship. I wasn't taking the constant meddling with my life and the constant criticism of my every move anymore. Mind you, I did meet her parents. They even met mine. But even so, while they were in Europe, things took a bad turn. A misunderstanding occurred. I corrected my ex. She emotionally blackmailed me by going into crying mode and her mother turned against me. I was treated like a criminal but I wouldn't back down. All sorts of insults were made against me and if it weren't for her father who was well aware of cultural differences but was incredibly cucked by his "submissive" Asian wife, it would have ended right there. Only thanks to his intervention did we manage to talk it through.
However, a few months later, her mother returned to Europe. A similar misunderstanding occurred (or was provoked). I privately expressed my feelings about it to my ex in as considerate a manner possible, and I proposed a way to solve things and move forward to repair the relationship. But no matter how politely and respectfully I tried to put my criticism of her mother's behavior toward me, there was a total unwillingness to listen and to acknowledge the issue. I pointed out that I had to comply with all sorts of demands, supposedly for "cultural reasons", but that it was never reciprocated as neither she nor her parents ever took into consideration my own parents' concerns and wishes as to our future marriage, and they rarely ever put themselves in my shoes to understand where I was coming from as a Westerner who had never set foot in Asia at that point.
And this is a big one. As a Westerner, you are in a weak position. Her family has her back. Your family doesn't. Or at least, not in the same way. They will not be openly making demands toward your girlfriend the way her parents will toward you. Western parents trust you to do your own thing and make your own choices, whereas the Asian girl's family will be fully involving themselves in where the relationship is going. What we see as a strength (independence and individual responsibility) turns out to be a disadvantage in this type of setting, if her family is ill-disposed. This doesn't change once you're married. They will always be there. This can be good or bad depending on whom you're dealing with, but in my case it turned out to be a stumbling block.
To illustrate just how far this can go, I know of a guy who desperately wanted to get married to an Indonesian girl who had been studying in Europe. He would travel abroad to regularly meet her but she would never make an effort to visit him, despite being from a rich family. Her Muslim parents were skeptical so he went as far as to convert to Islam just to be accepted. They married in Indonesia and had a big, fat traditional Indonesian wedding as this was her mother's wish. It must have cost a fortune. His family headed over there to attend. Notice how the Western party would comply with all demands and the Asian party dominated the entire relationship. Quite a price to pay for a woman who may eventually divorce rape you as they now live in Europe.
Long story short, we need to stop pedestalizing Asian women. Women are women, everywhere. AWALT. Asian women have many good traits and many of them are worth it but if you want to succeed with them, I would strongly advise you to learn as much as you can about the culture beforehand, and never to forget that almost as soon as you start dating an Asian girl, her family WILL get involved and you will have to deal with them sooner or later. Face saving and the passive aggressiveness that comes with it may also be a good reason not to get involved with an Asian girl, especially if you are the type of person who prefers directness and clear communication rather hints and reading between the lines.
Note that I was in a relationship with someone from a rather affluent family. In fact, her family was better off compared to mine. Many of us Westerners don't realize how much wealthier many Asians are these days. In fact, I was shocked by the amount of materialism I witnessed from them. I recall how her mother would spend a fortune on luxury items in front of me while I was effectively being told to "save up, and shut up". The only thing they cared about was money and success. Nothing wrong with either of those but I do take issue with the importance being attached to those at the expense of other values.
Many Asians seem to judge you simply by your wallet and not by your personal merit. You may be a morally upright person who works hard and is humble, but money trumps everything. I realize I may be broad-brushing here, but this is the overall tendency I witnessed and it needs to be said. This is true of many cultures, of course, but I found it to be very pronounced with Asian people. No offense. Because of their shame-based culture and indirectness, they will be nice, polite and even very open toward you publicly but don't ever mistake this for genuine kindness. Don't be naive. You need to be on your guard as there is a massive amount of pretense and back-stabbing.
That said, depending on the girl and her family, it may well be worth the risk. Just don't delude yourself into thinking in black and white terms about Asian women. There's good, there's bad, and if you're not on guard, you may well end up marrying a woman who will be domineering the relationship and undermining your authority. Asian women are NOT submissive if by "submissive" you believe they will simply do whatever you tell them to and will always respect your authority. As with any other women, you will have to assert yourself.
A final note. Think about the kids. Even if things work out fine between the two of you, your kids will still be mixed-race and bi-cultural. How will they deal with having two cultures? Where will you raise them? What languages will they be taught? Are you willing to settle in her country? You can forget about obtaining citizenship. I know a person in this situation. Also, are you willing to sacrifice your cultural background? Depending on the country, the kids may have to choose their nationality at some point as certain countries do not allow dual citizenship. If your culture or ethnicity is important to you and you want to pass it on to your kids, you'd better think twice before getting involved with an Asian woman.
Any questions or comments are welcome.