[The Beast1]

(06-08-2016 10:56 AM)Travesty Wrote:  

The Beast have you ever flown over America?

Have you ever seen Wyoming or driven through it?

We have insane amounts of land.

People can be a complete complete fuck up and easily survive in high fashion in first world nations.

This is only possible because of excess resources.

Without resources these people would have been eaten by wolves or frozen.

If anyone notices the anti UBI posts are based on strong feelings and not solutions.

I grew up in fly-over country and left it like most people for the allure of the big city. With a UBI I would happily move to BFE, get some guns, farm, and home school my kids.

However, good luck trying to convince the basic bitches of the US to live in the middle of nowhere Nevada or Wyoming instead of San Fran or NYC.

Our current economic "miracle" of cheap excess resources is propped up by monetary machinations that devalue the money of the 3rd world against western currencies that are artificially propped up. If anything disrupts this set up what good is a UBI if your clothes made in Indonesia costs 50-60$ and your foreign imported electronics costs upwards for $4-5000?

Hopefully, the market would fix this by having cheaper local versions. There will be some pain until this set up occurs.

(06-08-2016 12:20 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Lots of bad Libertarian assumptions in this thread which are easily refuted:

Quote:

You can't make more land and it still takes limited resources to make goods humans consume.

False. You can make more land by learning how to transform different environments into livable ones. Why can't we eventually live underwater, or in outer-space?

These aren't bad libertarian assumptions. They're honest questions because it is a poor assumption to think that our current economic system and technological innovations would be able to handle a UBI system.

The inventions you've brought up are all fine and dandy but you're assuming these inventions will come along very quickly, which they haven't yet nor do we know how long it will take to develop these.

We don't have the current technology to make underwater cities possible nor have we discovered how to bridge the massive distances between orbiting bodies in outer space.

Does that mean the technology won't come? No, of course not, but it doesn't mean it'll come any faster. If anything, if you give a basic income to everyone who is to say that the scientist who wanted to make an innovative power system, faster than light space drive, or underwater sim city just doesn't go off and move to the country to live in peace?

Granted some folks are out for glory, but i'm more interested in the societal effects that would occur right now if we implement a UBI.

At best we're at least 10-30 years out for having all of these nifty inventions you've stated. That includes automated vehicles.

(06-08-2016 12:20 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Resources aren't limited either. All resources are a product of human ingenuity. If we suddenly discover how to operate fission power, we'll have unlimited power running on H2O.

Come on Samsaeu this is basic science.

First, you mean fusion. We've already discovered fission power (that's what nuclear power plants are doing). Secondly, there's no such thing as "unlimited" power. Perpetual motion does not exist. We already have the means for cheap power (nuclear fission) and I hope under a Trump presidency he expands this cheap energy source. Nuclear waste is radioactive because it still has stuff in it that can be used to make more fuel rods.

Secondly Samsaeu, when you go digging underground and find a gold lode can you pic at the gold lode indefinitely? No, you're going to run out of gold in that specific location and you'll need to go looking elsewhere whether it's deeper underground, in space, underwater, or in someone's nose.

That is the definition of scarcity and no amount of robotics and automation will change that. We'll still need to grow and expand into other areas to find more resources to consume in order to feed our need for more.

That isn't to say i'm not for UBI, we're going to need something to help folks hurt by automation and I hope that once we reach the point where we can travel the stars and colonize planets as much as possible. Still, there are a lot of questions that will need to be looked at. To be honest, if humans didn't have to work most would do nothing but drown themselves in hedonistic pleasures (drink, drugs, and p4p).

This is just my rant against the term post-scarcity (post labor is a better term) along with my own societal concerns about such a system.