@jayko and everyone
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. You know the area in and out and how to explain it in Western terms. I really appreciate reading your observations and background on Malaysia, Singapore and the region.
Even if you would not be overseas Chinese, just growing up in the region will make you immune to the rawness of Chinese society.![[Image: smile.gif]](https://rooshvforum.network/images/smilies/smile.gif)
And like you write, you just get treated like coming from another province.
Every day things, for example. Very painful dental appointments. Just being told to go to X-ray in your blood stained T-shirt. Trying to find hospital X-ray department after <6 mo study of Chinese, asking around, paying X-ray with the drills still in your mouth. I had chosen "professor dentist" which cost the equivalent of 75 US cents, "normal dentist" cost 25 cents (+materials).
OK it is probably not like that at a clinic for expats in Shanghai, but one side of China.
I studied at Chinese university, foreigners' department. I loosely knew maybe 70-100 foreigners from start. Maybe 20% from the US and Europe, the rest Asians, often children of overseas Chinese, most of which practically knew the language and culture from start.
We all lived with Chinese. Spoke Chinese all day. After first 5 weeks, only Chinese language allowed to use in school (a loose rule, of course). Chinese naturally spoken by everyone at all student parties etc since many did not know English. We were all completely fluent after about 1-2 years.
Most Westerners went home after 6-12 mo quoting different reasons related to their life back home. I stayed several years longer. The picture I paint is completely different from the guys being stationed in China by large Western companies. Those guys have great life. Usually English speaking gf, expat friends, taxi to expat bars, exclusive apartments in high class area with many foreigners, often stay in big developed cities, high salary and bonus, shop and eat in places catering to expats. They experience more freedom in work than back home. Chinese fellow workers show respect as part of the business transaction. At least this was so for the ones I met.
I dont envy that life since I like to explore. Just another life. It is nice too.
I must admit, though, I have not visited northern China after I learnt the langage.
Most Westerners went home early. Japan, China, Korea are just too hard on us, in different ways of course.
China hardened under Hu Jintao. Long term visa for independent life (later arranging your own studies) was easy up to about Beijing Olympics. Now foreigners can't even use the normal Internet cafes. Can not stay in smaller lodgings. It is OK for foreigner to watch CNN, but only so in expensive hotel, usually not together with Chinese.This is information from friends since I left. Segregation of foreigner/Chinese is the aim of the policy.
And look at the flow of people. Many Westerners that stayed in China end up in f.ex Thailand but the opposite is very unusual.
I can imagine overseas Chinese are just regarded as coming from another province, like you say. My Chinese language is easily understandable by any Chinese but I naturally have an accent (like I have in English, of course). But I also feel the Chinese just consider the foreigner's accent one of many dialects, much easier to understand than Shanghai- or Hong Kong-dialect, of course.
At least Chinese are not picky. They probably become tolerant, f.ex living in a student dorm, 20 guys in one room, no electric heating whatsoever and snowing outside. (Foreigner could easily get own room, for low fee, and maybe smuggle in a heater.) Much problems and personal whims of teachers. (I studied at level 1 university, but southern China is probably less structured).
Also the universal truth. The longer a person stays in a country, when you hear his opinions about the place, they are usually more negative. In my opinion more realistic.
OK I go off topic. Sorry. Much memories from that time will stop that now.
I thought the Iban had cut heads far into the 20th century? During WW2 the belligerent parties gave them weapons and promoted the practice to assist war efforts?
When I asked the stories of the many skulls hanging from the ceiling they said "only grandfather knows"
Maybe the old habits just come out in conflicts. Around year 2000 Indonesia had shipped Madureses to Borneo and some of them had their heads cut off in ethnic conflicts.
Other headhunters, like Wa in China, cut heads of almost anyone, not just enemy. It was a belief in a process of getting good harvest.
I remember the river ferries running into Sarawak for 4-5 hours per ride, at 20+ knots. Zig-zagging between the rocks of the rapids. Even locals were making videos with their cell phones. Powerful rides.
To the topic.
The countries you add are very important. Thanks. I know so little about these.
The Yugoslavians were maybe running the worst mafias extending far into Western Europe in the old days. A Yugoslavian friend in Japan once admitted "When business goes sour we sometines solve it with a gun." The Balkan independence wars were bloody.
But this doesn't necessarily reflect the foreigners situatuon.
We got a lot of online homework to do. Thanks for collaborating on it. Adding Serbia, Montenegro and Slovenia.
What does your list look like?
Ukraine and Bulgaria are good candidates on my list. (I went to Ukraine.)
Moldavia?
How is Czech Republic? The people I have met are friendly. I visited Czechoslovakia long ago, but mostly saw tourist places.
Poland?
Isnt Russian a good start for language? If you start learning before you go, it may prove you have to change country after arriving and Russian is very spread? I am guessing here, though.
You analyze well. The exotic factor is probably very important. I must say I like the skinny Asians we dont see in the West. 40+ year old Vietnamese with a figure of a slim 18 yo western girl
Best is maybe if girl is smart but knows when to hide it If she is teally smart she understands what her guy wants.
It is very difficult to define a suitable place, I find. Many factors contradict:
locals open to foreigner/exotic, no tourists
reasonable shopping/nature, no crowds
etc etc
But still not impossible.
Thanks for really good points, jayko
My replies have to be irregular. My internet connection is bery bad.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. You know the area in and out and how to explain it in Western terms. I really appreciate reading your observations and background on Malaysia, Singapore and the region.
Even if you would not be overseas Chinese, just growing up in the region will make you immune to the rawness of Chinese society.
And like you write, you just get treated like coming from another province. Every day things, for example. Very painful dental appointments. Just being told to go to X-ray in your blood stained T-shirt. Trying to find hospital X-ray department after <6 mo study of Chinese, asking around, paying X-ray with the drills still in your mouth. I had chosen "professor dentist" which cost the equivalent of 75 US cents, "normal dentist" cost 25 cents (+materials).
OK it is probably not like that at a clinic for expats in Shanghai, but one side of China.
I studied at Chinese university, foreigners' department. I loosely knew maybe 70-100 foreigners from start. Maybe 20% from the US and Europe, the rest Asians, often children of overseas Chinese, most of which practically knew the language and culture from start.
We all lived with Chinese. Spoke Chinese all day. After first 5 weeks, only Chinese language allowed to use in school (a loose rule, of course). Chinese naturally spoken by everyone at all student parties etc since many did not know English. We were all completely fluent after about 1-2 years.
Most Westerners went home after 6-12 mo quoting different reasons related to their life back home. I stayed several years longer. The picture I paint is completely different from the guys being stationed in China by large Western companies. Those guys have great life. Usually English speaking gf, expat friends, taxi to expat bars, exclusive apartments in high class area with many foreigners, often stay in big developed cities, high salary and bonus, shop and eat in places catering to expats. They experience more freedom in work than back home. Chinese fellow workers show respect as part of the business transaction. At least this was so for the ones I met.
I dont envy that life since I like to explore. Just another life. It is nice too.
I must admit, though, I have not visited northern China after I learnt the langage.
Most Westerners went home early. Japan, China, Korea are just too hard on us, in different ways of course.
China hardened under Hu Jintao. Long term visa for independent life (later arranging your own studies) was easy up to about Beijing Olympics. Now foreigners can't even use the normal Internet cafes. Can not stay in smaller lodgings. It is OK for foreigner to watch CNN, but only so in expensive hotel, usually not together with Chinese.This is information from friends since I left. Segregation of foreigner/Chinese is the aim of the policy.
And look at the flow of people. Many Westerners that stayed in China end up in f.ex Thailand but the opposite is very unusual.
I can imagine overseas Chinese are just regarded as coming from another province, like you say. My Chinese language is easily understandable by any Chinese but I naturally have an accent (like I have in English, of course). But I also feel the Chinese just consider the foreigner's accent one of many dialects, much easier to understand than Shanghai- or Hong Kong-dialect, of course.
At least Chinese are not picky. They probably become tolerant, f.ex living in a student dorm, 20 guys in one room, no electric heating whatsoever and snowing outside. (Foreigner could easily get own room, for low fee, and maybe smuggle in a heater.) Much problems and personal whims of teachers. (I studied at level 1 university, but southern China is probably less structured).
Also the universal truth. The longer a person stays in a country, when you hear his opinions about the place, they are usually more negative. In my opinion more realistic.
OK I go off topic. Sorry. Much memories from that time
will stop that now.I thought the Iban had cut heads far into the 20th century? During WW2 the belligerent parties gave them weapons and promoted the practice to assist war efforts?
When I asked the stories of the many skulls hanging from the ceiling they said "only grandfather knows"
Maybe the old habits just come out in conflicts. Around year 2000 Indonesia had shipped Madureses to Borneo and some of them had their heads cut off in ethnic conflicts.
Other headhunters, like Wa in China, cut heads of almost anyone, not just enemy. It was a belief in a process of getting good harvest.
I remember the river ferries running into Sarawak for 4-5 hours per ride, at 20+ knots. Zig-zagging between the rocks of the rapids. Even locals were making videos with their cell phones. Powerful rides.
To the topic.
The countries you add are very important. Thanks. I know so little about these.
The Yugoslavians were maybe running the worst mafias extending far into Western Europe in the old days. A Yugoslavian friend in Japan once admitted "When business goes sour we sometines solve it with a gun." The Balkan independence wars were bloody.
But this doesn't necessarily reflect the foreigners situatuon.
We got a lot of online homework to do. Thanks for collaborating on it. Adding Serbia, Montenegro and Slovenia.
What does your list look like?
Ukraine and Bulgaria are good candidates on my list. (I went to Ukraine.)
Moldavia?
How is Czech Republic? The people I have met are friendly. I visited Czechoslovakia long ago, but mostly saw tourist places.
Poland?
Isnt Russian a good start for language? If you start learning before you go, it may prove you have to change country after arriving and Russian is very spread? I am guessing here, though.
You analyze well. The exotic factor is probably very important. I must say I like the skinny Asians we dont see in the West. 40+ year old Vietnamese with a figure of a slim 18 yo western girl
Best is maybe if girl is smart but knows when to hide it
If she is teally smart she understands what her guy wants.It is very difficult to define a suitable place, I find. Many factors contradict:
locals open to foreigner/exotic, no tourists
reasonable shopping/nature, no crowds
etc etc
But still not impossible.
Thanks for really good points, jayko
My replies have to be irregular. My internet connection is bery bad.