[Timoteo]

(07-07-2013 12:14 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(07-06-2013 10:32 PM)Timoteo Wrote:  

(07-06-2013 07:25 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(07-06-2013 01:02 PM)Timoteo Wrote:  

This is such an American problem. In Europe, topless beaches are prevalent, and of course, kids see public nudity early on. A Spanish woman I used to see used to go topless when she returned to Spain, in front of her kids. If they had been raised there it wouldn't have been a big deal, but because they were raised here, they saw mom going topless as a big deal as they got older. Finally, before returning to Spain one summer, one of her sons asked, "Are you going to take off your top on the beach this summer mom?" That's was her cue to stop going topless in front of the kids. Obviously, in Brazil, the bikini bottoms some women wear are a small triangle to cover their slits, with some string to hold in in place. The thong bottoms don't cover much more. And on Copacabana Beach, some also go topless. I know we're too far along to kill the prudishness in our society, but it won't kill kids to see someone in a bikini. Their problem with this woman is more about how she's built, and not how much the bikini bottom is covering. If she were less voluptuous, they wouldn't have wanted her to cover up. Those bottoms are high-cut on the sides, but the coverage in back appears adequate to me. Considering our cultural mores, she probably should have worn a sarong around her waist.

Sorry Timoteo - but an "American problem?" Really?

I'm pretty sure there are quite a few cultures outside of America in which women going topless is frowned upon...Hell, here in Thailand, even men going topless is frowned upon outside of the most touristy places...I remember getting flagged down by cops with a Thai buddy one time when our shirts were off and the cops making us put them back on, remarking it was impolite; all the tourists get away with it in the most tourist places but they've been known to be clueless so people let it slide, and if they really believe it's not frowned on away from the beach they're only fooling themselves.

Anyhow, aside from the fact that many cultures beyond America find it inappropriate, and I'm sure I'm quite alone in this sentiment as far as this forum goes, I personally feel modesty is an underrated cultural virtue and getting it back could do us some good. Maybe I'm just a prude at heart...I was raised by free-spirit biker/hippy women and no father in sight, so it was hardly my culture that inspired this thinking...but no one can deny that a woman's chest is more sexual than a man's.

The idea that it's not is, in my opinion, feminist brainwashing at its finest.

Just because something is European doesn't make it right.

WHOA...I didn't say we should adopt toplessness here in America. You went a little overboard. I was attempting to make the point that our issues with sexuality in all forms is outrageous. This idea that even in places where we are allowed to show skin, some still have issues, and hide behind the protection of children to express their own lack of comfort with the human form. I get that some cultures are extremely conservative, but I don't live in those places. If I visit, I'll gladly fall in line. I live here. At a beach or a pool, a woman should be able to wear a bikini bottom that covers her ass adequately without having to put shorts or a sarong around it. I don't see what's inappropriate about toplessness in Europe. Their attitudes regarding sexuality in general are different than ours, and I don't see a problem with it. I don't see it as a matter of right or wrong. It works for them, and that's fine with me. The fact that Americans are hypocritical about the issue is probably the greater problem, if that works as a clarification of my stance. And again...you're focusing on the issue of the woman's chest - I never said there's no difference between the male and female chest - YOU DID. The issue was her bikini bottom, and there was nothing wrong with it. I believe many beaches/towns have ordinances against wearing thongs. That's fine. But if a woman shows up at a beach or pool where there are children, I still don't think she should be asked to cover up her bottom if it provides adequate coverage. I also believe there are establishments that don't allow males to be shirtless here. I'm fine with that too. Modesty is just fine...but to require it at a beach or pool for a person wearing a normal bikini is ridiculous. I recall a couple of stories about airlines throwing a couple of women off of flights because they were dressed too provocatively in the opinion of the flight crew. Where to you stand on that?

Hmmm...To be fair - you were the one who brought up toplessness. I was simply addressing your mention of it and that this cultural standard was an American thing.

Not sure why you felt that was overboard or felt it was necessary to use all-caps with the "you did." Maybe my post came across as over-inflammatory, and if so, I apologize. I didn't mean it that way, and again, was merely addressing your assertion that this was an "American problem," at which point you jumped right to nudity and toplessness, which is why I carried that subject forward. I didn't mean to attack you and I do respect your views on this forum; maybe I was being a bit aggressive.

Anyhow, in the interest of your question, I do think it's possible for people to dress too provocatively, though men usually don't bother. While I don't think it should be within the reach of our government to dictate how people present themselves, I think businesses should have the right to refuse service when they feel like it disrupts the standard of the environment they hope to create. It is, after all, their environment. In a consumption-driven society, this is how culture talks.

I wholeheartedly expect people here to disagree with me on this and accept that.

I'm not siding with the people who gave that woman the boot; what I am saying is that we weren't there and this issue may have been less lopsided than the media wants us to believe. My own views of how far American (and European) society have fallen as far as provocative dress have gone are, to me, irrelevant in this matter.

I imagine our life views are pretty different because I actually do prefer cultures where modesty is highly valued, so belaboring the issue probably won't get us anywhere. My main point, and perhaps I should have stuck with that single point to limit confusion, is that it's not merely an American-centric issue as you suggested.

I merely used toplessness in Europe as a way of contrasting the over-the-top issues we have with sexuality. How can I state toplessness as an American standard if it ISN'T the standard here? And the point was hypocrisy is an American issue regarding this subject. Hell, in the Middle East they're even MORE conservative. The point is that other cultures are more consistent. We're overreacting to a bikini in a place where it's appropriate to wear one, while in Europe not wearing a top isn't an issue. And actually, there are topless beaches in the US. In America, we're arbitrary regarding what's offensive and what isn't. I don't see how modesty comes into play at a pool or a beach, where it's appropriate to dress that way. That particular pool should be more specific regarding what's appropriate in terms of women's swimwear (no high-cut bottoms). They were being arbitrary at this particular pool. No one here argues that businesses shouldn't be able to dictate who they will serve. They do, and most of us comply. That's still way beside the point of the thread. And my opinion was based on the pictures of what the woman was wearing, not my general opinion on the particular subject of modesty or provocative dress.