Quote: (05-31-2013 06:44 AM)Homo_Sapien Wrote:
Quote: (05-30-2013 10:57 AM)ao85 Wrote:
At what IQ level do we lose free will? After all, you wouldn't say a rat has free will, right? Well then what about a dog? An orangutan or dolphin? A really stupid human?
Couldn't there be different gradations of free will?
I'm guessing you meant to say gain instead of lose?
If so, at no point do we gain free will.
To paraphrase Sam Harris, it has been demonstrated under lab conditions that a person's conscious decision comes after unconscious processes that can be detected and measured. There is a time lag (as much as 5 seconds in some cases) between the moment you think you decided to do something, and the moment your brain decided. This causes a problem for free will because it would allow someone to predict your actions while you think you are still deciding.
Little experiment that he uses that I encourage you to participate in:
Pick any film now.
Notice what your conscious process of selection is like.
Now pick another film.
You should realize that there is absolutely no evidence for free will from this experiment.
1. You are entirely limited to films that you are aware of. No freedom there.
2. Now think of all the other films you are aware of but did not choose. Were you really free to choose a film that did not occur to you to choose?
3. Notice that it isn't you who actually makes the decision on what film to choose. The thought simply occurred to you. Perhaps because it was the most recent film you saw, or your favorite/most watched film or whatever. All you are doing is witnessing these decisions. After you read the line that asked you to pick a film, the names of films just started appearing in your mind. You didn't know which film(s) they would be until they appeared in your consciousness.
When we actually recognize how thoughts and intentions arise, the notion of free will dissipates. This is true for every thought you've had and every decision you've made.
Every part of our brains and bodies are subject to the laws of nature. This means that in order for free will to exist, it has to be supernatural.
Do you believe in the supernatural generally?
Not at all - your post illustrated my point - that if we believed in free will, we would have to demonstrate a point when it stops. Since (because of the ambiguities of species intelligence etc) it's impossible to draw that line, it's more likely that free will doesn't even exist in the first place.
Love the experiment you cited. Mind blowing.