Quote: (01-22-2019 06:32 AM)Simeon_Strangelight Wrote:
Quote: (01-20-2019 11:01 AM)Kaligula Wrote:
Quote: (01-20-2019 10:15 AM)Simeon_Strangelight Wrote:
< Yeah - the older generation of Poles have an inferiority complex mostly fostered by the communist times and their various lack of wealth and prosperity. It's probably also a remainder of times before the war as well.
Obviously any inferiority complex - even an economic nowadays is ridiculous. Anyone with 2 pea-brains can make 1000EUR in Poland too, all without having to compete with mass migration for inflated real estate prices, without having to fear the rape and murder of his children or his woman. Sure - the jobs making 3000EUR per month are rare, but I started to see French, German and Austrian guys working in Warsaw making barely 1500EUR and they still prefer living there while they could make double or triple in France. But of course double in Paris is still shit, since you need serious dough to isolate yourself from the diversity.
Generation Z in Poland has no inferiority complex whatsoever and even the Millennials don't.
This is not exactly true because in big cities like Warsaw rents are almost the same as in the West Europe; prepare yourself to pay at least 500 EUR for rent in Warsaw.
With a pea brain, 1000 EUR netto in small cities is not true. 700 EUR is more realistic.
I am a Millenial, so I will disagree. Once upon a time we did think that everything in West was somehow better for everyone, many still do. Otherwise, there would not have been such a great emigration out of Poland after Poland's EU accession. Maybe you take a kind of brashness, being cheeky, for the lack of sense of inferiority; they are not the same.
Generation Z do not have the same candy picture of the West which previous generations had, but they do have some inferiority complex. Many of them still prefer to earn more than 700 EUR, and they go to work abroad for some time. A person that does that feels some inferiority since it is not like things should be. You should have a nice job in your town. Often they have left their crews behind, they do not like it; they would prefer to stay in Poland. I think that they have a deeper sense of community than Millenials. Personally, it is easier for me to talk with them about many things than with Millenials, they are ready to listen and to learn; Millenials are still extremely invested in their candy-like dreams. From Z I have got respect for understanding things, but from Millenials just a label of "pessimist".
Moreover, constant pounding we are getting from EU for this and that provides for continuation of inferiority complex on other grounds, since everyone knows that a lot of these things we are lambasted for are simply not true. For example, even my leftist friends privately agree that justice system in Poland is really corrupt and needs reforming.
It might be that Poles love EU so much that they will finally vote Kaczyński party out of office, but even then they would know that all that was simply not fair and they were browbeaten.
No - income differential is still high. It's even high when compared from Austria to Switzerland. Millions of Germans would flood Switzerland if they opened the borders.
Incomes are of course low in Poland, but let me tell you this:
700 EUR per person is 1400 EUR per couple. After 2 years you can buy an apartment which is of higher quality often in the newly constructed areas. You can buy 50m2 for 70.000EUR and pay it back in the next 25-30 years. The mortgage will come down to 500EUR and you still have 900EUR left for car and living costs. It's enough to live off due to the non-inflated real estate market and the overall lower costs of living. That is why I met actual French guys working for 1200 EUR in Warsaw. A waitress can make 2400EUR on tips which the employers misused sometimes paying them close to nothing on hourly wages.
There are still many people working for 400-500EUR, but even they survive, rent one room and have money to spare for travel. The guys moving abroad only have a markedly different lifestyle if they have an excellent education, but guess what - as an MD, engineer, real estate agent you can make 5000EUR+ with very limited expenses. Working holidays are not comparable to actually living in a country like Germany. If they earn 1400EUR in Germany which is now normal, then they can save some 200EUR per month. I met guys working in retail in Poland making 450EUR and they saved 150 EUR of that for travel.
The economic pressure also has some positive aspects as women are more likely to bond faster - the cock-hopping of the Western woman is very limited to her younger years or the quasi-hookers. Most try to nab a dependable man, many find their future partner during their student years, because the economic situation necessitates for them to settle down much sooner. With higher wages many women would ride the carousel up to their 30s like in the West. Like I heard from 36yo Swiss women: "I still have time to find my good-looking millionaire!"
You are right concerning waiters' tips in WARSAW, I have a friend who works as a university lecturer but still keeps his old work in a restaurant, just for tips. However, it does not happen in every restaurant, even in Warsaw.
I would dispute whether the real estate market is not inflated, it is actually clogged by a huge amount of apartments (~3 millions!) that were sold on CHF-indexed mortgages to financially illiterate but greedy Poles. I remember trying to warn my friends on CHF-indexing point, just to be laughed at; I have then learnt that people will not take advice from you if you don't share their lifestyle. Due to the sunk costs people now do not want to sell those apartments at market price, which is much lower than the value of credit. And, well, in Poland the credit refinancing market has not yet really developed. That means there is little liquidity in the real estate market and you are still supposed to buy new apartments for prices higher than the overall market situation would suggest. Really, Poland, like Spain, decided for the real estate driven economy, financed by jobs in different outsourcing centers aka service economy. No wonder developers & bankers rule Poland. I suppose the landing will be even harder than in Spain, since we do not have tourism industry....
The mortgage is what nowadays keeps a lot of marriages going. The last issue of "Wysokie Obcasy", the liberal "Gazeta Wyborcza" magazine for women, has a long article (Rozwód z kredytem. Divorce with a morgage.) devoted to this currently most serious calamity that descended upon the liberal Polish women. Vae feminae!
However, it does show that Poland is still not an affluent society since the crux of the problem lies in the impossibility of paying the other side the half of the apartment value (add to that the impossibility of selling the apartment without loss to the original price), which simply means that for many people those over-priced apartments are the only substantial property they have.
In CE, such a real estate boom happened only in Poland and Hungary, but Hungarians were lucky to index rather to JPY than CHF, later they were even more lucky when Orban forced banks to get rid of indexing and to revalue mortgages in HUF (Hungarian forints). In Poland, banks & developers are too strong. For many, this is also a kind of moral problem (known as moral hazard): should the state actually bail out those creditors?
There are 3 millions of young people with their future taken away by their unlucky mortgages, and they have not been able to mount any serious protests whatsoever, except a few anemic demonstrations. So docile Poles actually are! Almost like Germans... Compare that to the French, who now are holding massive protests due to the fuel tax....