[Excelsior]

(08-27-2016 01:40 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

None of this is exclusive to white and black American relations though, nor is it limited to modern times.

Men of all cultures during all time periods have shunned their women from dating outside of their tribe. Men in Asia will literally call the girl a slut while you're standing right there. It's part of human nature.

Another variant of obfuscating fuckery outlined above.

"It's just human nature man."

No, this is not about human nature. That's another bullshit cop-out that I'm not about to co-sign. This is about insecure, self-serving fuckery designed to insult an entire group of men by equating them with dirt and implying that their mere proximity to certain women "ruins" those women for good.

When men who do not look like me get with women who do look like me, I do not respond by implying that those women are "ruined" by virtue of said romantic association. I do not imply that said women are dirty or broken simply because the man they have decided to get with is a man who is not of their precise racial background and/or doesn't look like I do. That's how I will treat you.

If you're not willing to extend that same treatment to me, then I don't want to know you. We're not cool.
If you're willing to excuse, defend, and sympathize with those who are unwilling to extend that same treatment to me and who show said unwillingness by making use of language explicitly designed to extend the opposite treatment to me, then we're not cool.

This is not that complicated.

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We even had an African poster on the forum recently who celebrated the Tutsi's practice of only dating other Tutsi to preserve their bloodline. But I didn't see anyone calling him racist.

Did he follow that up by insisting that Tutsi women who did date out were inherently broken, deformed, dirty, or otherwise defective on a personal level?

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I agree that coal burning is a term that shouldn't be used on the forum, and that many of the posters here are too reactionary and take "race realism" too far. Lord knows I've gone to bat countless times for non-whites on this forum.

But at the same time, damn if I'm not tired of being called a racist simply for having an identity or doing the same things every other race does.

I actually had one of my closest friends from growing up post a HuffPost article on FB recently that basically said all whites are inherently racist and we need to learn to treat blacks better.

That legitimately hurt me, though my personality isn't usually one to admit that.

This is someone that used to be at my house everyday as kids, and that my parents not only treated with the utmost respect but as part of the family.

But according to one of Huffington Post's thousands of freelance bloggers, I'm a racist now. And he's someone who's well-educated and came from a decent background. Both he and his sister's have PhDs.

Their views are nothing compared to what many lower class blacks in America currently express about whites on a daily basis.

And don't even get me started on how many people consider me a racist just because of the candidate I support for president, someone who has been an icon in the hip hop community for years and yet is suddenly "literally Hitler" and apparently tarnishes everyone that associates with him.

Meanwhile people like Herschel Walker or Mike Tyson -- who talk about how generous and supportive Trump was towards them throughout difficult times in their life -- are greeted with an endless stream of "coon", "Uncle Tom", "house negro", etc. and have their character attacks and livelihood threatened ad infinitum.

Black people are harassed at work, shot in bar, etc. all for having an opinion. Yet it's Trump supporters who are supposedly the real racists.

On the other hand, notice how most of the Trump supporters on this forum support nationalism for Japan, nationalism for the Philippines, nationalism for Russia.

Yet god forbid we don't let millions of people illegally flood into the US. We all "owe" non-whites a "debt" for "slavery" and "colonialism" that we'll never be able to repay, regardless of the fact that this is all completely ahistorical when put into the proper perspective and relies on the retarded American version of race where the entire world is split up into white, black, Asian, Arab, and Latino, which completely falls apart under even the smallest of scrutiny.

I've lived in all-black hoods, white suburbs, and the third-world, smoked weed with Jamaican dope boys and talked politics with upper class Filipinos. I've seen firsthand who is living how and who is doing what. The okey-doke doesn't work on me.

If I can't even have an identity or express any concern for my own interests or the issues that affect me, you're right, we're not brothers. I respect you a lot as a poster, but if that's how you feel, that's how you feel.

A whole lot of talk about a whole lot of things that are entirely irrelevant to this conversation.

I've said nothing at all about your ability to have an identity or the validity of the "all whites are inherently racist" narrative, nor have I implied that said narrative is acceptable or valid.

The post to which you are responding made explicit reference to the fact that the attitude I was criticizing transcended political lines and occurred within areas and among people both liberal and conservative. I made a point of referencing instances of this shaming of interracial unions by those on the left specifically to counter the narrative that all conservatives are racists and all racists are conservatives. I know that narrative is false - I learned that the hard way at left-leaning Ivy League schools in parts of the country that no Republican could ever hope to win in an election, areas where people regularly claim moral supremacy over others by virtue of who they vote for and the platitudes they spout. Actions speak louder than words.

Why you bothered to go on about all of that is beyond me, but I'll re-iterate again what this actually boils down to:

When men who do not look like me get with women who do look like me, I do not respond by implying that those women are "ruined" by virtue of said romantic association. I do not imply that said women are dirty or broken simply because the man they have decided to get with is a man who is not of their precise racial background and/or doesn't look like I do. That's how I will treat you.

If you're willing to extend that same treatment to me, then we have no issues.

If you're not willing to extend that same treatment to me, then fuck off.
If you're willing to excuse, defend, and sympathize with those who are unwilling to extend that same treatment to me and make use of language explicitly designed to extend the opposite treatment to me, then fuck off.

This is not that complicated.

(08-29-2016 01:37 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

People are saying we're talking about things that are "outside the forum", yet no one said anything when Excelsior brought up how white girls ignore black guys on internet dating because of white guys' views on interracial dating.

What does THAT have to do with anyone on this forum?

I brought that up in order to illustrate the fact that the dynamic I am criticizing is not one limited to conservatives, trump supporters, or white men.
Given your response, perhaps I was mistaken in doing that.

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But don't sit here and get mad because white guys want to talk about white guy issues. Yes, it's a bigger topic here -- because we're the majority.

Is that what's happening here? Folks are upset simply because some people were talking about "white guy issues"? They aren't upset because some people were using terms explicitly designed to insult them by implying that every woman who touches them is dirty/defective/low-class/garbage?

Is the use of terms explicitly designed to insult those non-white men by implying that every woman who touches them is dirty/defective/low-class/garbage a "white guy issue"?

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Sorry. What do you want me to do about it? Should we just start banning white members to make black members feel more comfortable?

If you want people to see things from your perspective, then SHARE your perspective. That's why people love guys like TravelerKai and Anabasis (RIP) -- they engage the rest of the forum and give their point of view.

If no black guys are willing to share their opinion or speak up when something bothers them, how are we supposed to know? Do you think we can read your mind through the internet and tell when we've offended you?

Folks are speaking up right now. The response they are getting (which ranges from outright denial to more subtle forms of obfuscation and goal-post moving) is telling.

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I've read through some of the "black guy game thread". Many of the black members struggle with their identity, including some of the ones posting in this thread. I've listened to many of the podcasts. Many of the black members do not have stereotypically "black" voices or vocal patterns.

Do you think white guys don't have similar struggles with our identity?

OMG I said "black guys do it too!!!!!"

That's not pointing fingers. It's pointing out our common ground.

Many of the white guys on this forum are fairly young. Many of us have been exposed to years of brainwashing. Many of us didn't have strong male role models in our lives. Many of us are exploring new ideas and ideologies and philosophies.

We're trying to figure things out. Many of us have been made to feel ashamed of our race for so long that we overcorrect in the other direction. Just because we say something you find offensive doesn't mean there's malicious intent about it, and just because we say something you find offensive doesn't mean it's wrong.

If you're struggling with your own identity and race, don't come in here and try to lecture other people on how wrong they are. Explain yourself, let them explain themselves, and maybe you'll both learn something.

"We don't say anything about white guys dating black girls"

First of all, most white guys on this forum haven't said anything about black guys on this forum dating outside their race.

Second of all, how many times does rudebwoy, Archie, etc. have to tell guys in the BGGT to stop bashing black women?

Trust me, I have a very good memory. Excelsior and Fortis struggle with being rejected by black women for not being "black" enough, yet attack white guys for struggling with white women who reject them for black men.

Do you not see the parallels there?

No, I don't. I don't understand how most of what you wrote up there is even relevant.

Here, once again, is the core of the discussion here:
I do not make a habit of implying that women who look like me who get with men who do not look like me are inherently dirty, broken women who ruined by virtue of that association.

My personal struggles with many individual black women do not have an impact on this. I've been told by some black women straight to my face that they could never see themselves with a black man. That has not lead me to imply that every black woman who dates white men is somehow defective or dirty, or necessarily even hostile to black men. Nothing about the way black women have treated me has any impact on my point of view, which is as follows: I do not think a black woman is inherently defective for getting with a man who does not look like me. I am not going to label her as such if I see her getting with a man who does not look like me. I am not going to allow any historical socio-cultural patterns associated with men who look like said non-black man impact that judgement either, because he is an individual.

The question is this: are you willing to extend that same treatment to me?

If you like to throw terms like "coalburner" and "mudshark" around all the time, the answer is almost certainly no. If that is the case, I have a problem with you. Don't try to shake my hand.
If you're willing to go out of your way to rationalize and defend those who express such an attitude (instead of calling the fuckery for what it is and just squashing it), we also probably have an issue and are not going to be cool.

All of this talk about "struggling" with racial identity and whatever else you wrote up there is perplexing to me because, frankly, it's got nothing to do with the topic at hand. I am not talking about your struggle with your racial identity or my struggle with mine. I am talking about your willingness to judge me as an individual and abstain from insulting me by implying that any woman who goes near me is defective. I'm telling you that I am not going to call a woman dirty or broken for associating with you merely because you do not look like me and she does. I am asking you to treat me the same way, and I am saying that if you do not, we're not cool. That is all this is about.

Once again: this is not that complicated.

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But don't bullshit me. Either we all show each other respect as men, or there's nothing to talk about.

I wholeheartedly agree.