[hydrogonian]

(07-01-2016 01:01 PM)mikado Wrote:  

You are making the assumption that every person who declares himself/herself of Islam religion has imperialist motives and wants to impose his/her point of view to others, and will react exactly the same as another Muslim.

It makes absolutely no difference. Those precepts that you mention are at the core of the belief system. The special snowflake others are irrelevant, similar to how no one makes exceptions for nazis who don't want to kill people or be imperialist. The belief system is what matters, not the individuals who decide to mod it.

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First, Muslims are not limited to Middle East or African origin. You have also many Muslims of European/American etc origin. You are applying the same prism to all Muslims whereas the culture of , say, someone who was born and raised in Europe will completely be completely different of the culture of someone of American origin. Someone who is caucasian or raised in Europe and extremely progressive can still be Muslim. Yet they are ASSUMED to behave exactly the same as an immigrant who comes from Somalia??

The belief system is the same, and is directly responsible for too much death, war, and political upheaval even in the modern day but also historically, to be tenable as a sleeper community in the West. Its always harboring the tendency to get out of control, and most often does once a demographic tipping point is reached.

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An example: in Senegal women can wear veils or choose not to. There is zero issue about it. Yet if they did this in Saudi Arabia they would be chastized and maybe beaten for it. If anyone tried to impose veils to women in Senegal they would be strongly fought against because we are a laic country where animists and christians have a place (even with 95% muslims).

These are quibbles that are irrelevant to how the West needs to judge the core doctrine.

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Why is it like that in Senegal? Simple: because people unite mostly over the senegalese culture, not the religion. The country has been under many influences such as Arabs, Portuguese, French, English, etc however everyone will gladly sit around a bowl of Thiebou Dieune (rice and fish) and drink bissap juice, whatever his religion/ethnicity is.

I don't care what they eat.

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The culture shapes the way you practice your religion. This girl is from German culture, has a German mother and even if we don't have many clues about her personal life no one can say she might "betray" her country.

Sure they can. Islam is not German culture.

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The main way of thinking of this forum seems to be that it is Islam first, then the country second. This might hold for Saudi Arabia but it does not for western civilization.

We'll see. Its causing enough trouble as the numbers even reach a moderate level. There is no precedent for how Islam acts in Western civilization once these numbers are reached. There is a precedent in the rest of the world.

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Practically all muslims I know who are in France, whether they come from Africa or France itself, drink, fuck, consume exactly like people of European origin or others who are not Muslim (me included). Yes it is forbidden and we are comitting a sin. However, we still do it. Are we a danger for France? I don't think so.

That's for the non-Muslim French to decide. And, no, people from the rest of the world do not act like the French statistically speaking.

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Instead of calling out to a ban of Islam, I think the option should be a call for a Islam of France/America/whatever Western country. A country where you can sing La Marseillaise and wear a revealing dress, yet pray and listen to Quran if you want. Embrace your origins from another country/continent if you want it, yet also acknowledge the traditions and culture of France for example, its historic leaders, its terroir, its churches etc, and occasionally bond with people of another religion over a good Boeuf bourguignon or a chorba.

Your asking for a lot of tolerance and trust that Islam has not historically earned, nor earned in the present.

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Maybe that's not "authentic" Islam but hey, current christianism isn't "authentic" anymore neither.

Christianity doesn't need mods to blend in as functional in Western society. It's authentic version blends in fine, and your broad stroke characterization of "authentic Christianity" is impossible to state.

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The road to that passes through the refusal of ILLEGAL immigration, the selection of the best LEGAL immigrants, adressing the real issues like people asking for a prayer room at work or cancelling nativity scenes (in France for example some mayors did it. I think it is not OK, crèches should be preserved since they are part of french history and Muslims can delay the midday prayer for until they come back at home). Call me naive but I think those are simple things that could make a big difference and strengthen the French identity (for example).

Have you ever asked yourself why Europeans should have a mandate to accommodate you? It's their nation and their culture. You have your own nations and your own cultures. Why would you feel the need to live in proximity to the French? What is it about them that is so attractive to Islam, that Arab and African Muslims cannot procure or build for themselves? Why the necessity for proximity to non-Muslim Europeans? What is it about them? Your entitlement for multiculturalism is a dangerous experiment that may not work out. Do you not read your European history? And I'm not merely talking about the 20th century. It's as close to poking a Lion with a stick, on the geopolitical level, that I can imagine. Keep rationalizing, but the entitlement is madly foolhardy in my opinion.