Syrianguy,
I am as muslim as you can get, beard n all. So ask me anything and I promise I will be completely open with you. I will be first to say there are lot of things that Islam values which totally contradict western values (and I agree with them all). but I gotta call you out on these specific ones you are throwing out there.
Who do you think protected all the churches and synagogues in these countries during the ottoman empire (over 700 years). Assuming you are originally from Syria then you will know that In Syria the city of Palmyra has the oldest churches in history where the christians still talk in aramaic. They are pretty much destroyed now by ISIS (US israel, cia, mossad woteva)....so how is it that a country ruled by islamic leaders kept these churches protected all this time?? and now a bunch of rouges destroyed them.
I looked at those links and all are people who were inciting violence and or actually at war in battles. So like I said enemy of the state...I am not being dishonest you just proved the point. nuff said.
It says right there that if they repent and establish prayer then they are your brothers. That is the chance, they actually get 3 chances. After the 3rd one they are put to death. but again these are people that are at war with islam as mentioned above and proved by your references of when the prophet did it. Don't try to stir the pot.
I do not disagree with you that there are plenty of muslims who will want to take you down if you insult their prophet coz they love him. It is like if I keep calling your mumma a whore there might be a chance I picked on the wrong dude and he goes ape on me.
but what you are trying to push here is that Islam itself says to kill someone who criticizes the prophet. Now the only time I know of that a fatwa has been given by any cleric to take someone out for doing this is by the Iranians against salman rushdie. Note that no other cleric around the world issued the same fatwa....not even the saudis agreed with it.
Nice how you omit the 4 verses in between. You must have a job in MSM. Verse 58 to 60 is important coz it says specifically who should be seized.
Anyway 1st verse is typical, saying any non-believer is going to hell. no disagreement there.
Next 4 in between verses which you kindly omitted talk about those who hurt believers who have done nothing wrong and continue to do evil deeds will be taken care of in this world and hereafter.
Yes quran speaks a lot about the brutal treatment of infidels but these are verses of engagement war and rules involved. Find me a verse that simply says to kill or hurt a non-believer just for the sake of it.
I specifically blame them for masquerading as ISIS and blowing stuff up.
Take it back then. Like Donald Trump says, when we blow em up and take over their land why arent we taking the spoils, we arent getting anything out of it. This whole idea of being peace keepers and funding ISIS and kicking out dictators taking over their land and leaving with nothing is all pretending. It proves to means we are only fighting wars for soros and other elites and they get the spoils. You have to understand who the enemy is, we are both getting slaughtered here.
Trump is at least calling it as he sees it and no wander the elite hate his guts.
hah....yeh if the values are drinking beer and such. sure I agree with you.
ohh my god. you seriously didn't say that. So the guy that no one knows or ever heard of before who made a crappy youtube video years ago and has never spoken a word since is the leader of ISIS and calling the shots eh.
Nothing gets past you huh. Keep watching CNN.
I am as muslim as you can get, beard n all. So ask me anything and I promise I will be completely open with you. I will be first to say there are lot of things that Islam values which totally contradict western values (and I agree with them all). but I gotta call you out on these specific ones you are throwing out there.
Quote: (03-24-2016 02:37 AM)syrianguy Wrote:Wrong, they actually get first class citizenship, they get protection from the state and allowed to practice freely. The tax they pay is less than the tax muslims have to pay (2.5% a year to the poor). If the christian or jew converts to islam they have to pay this higher tax and also the men must go to war if the state gets under attack. It is cheaper for the christian to not convert and safer, they pay a less than 1% tax and the muslims must fight and protect them.
Supporting Sharia law already makes you incompatible with western society in many ways. It means you are endorsing second class citizenship for dhimmis (Christians and jews) where they have to be subdued and pay taxes. I will address the rest of your points individually.
Who do you think protected all the churches and synagogues in these countries during the ottoman empire (over 700 years). Assuming you are originally from Syria then you will know that In Syria the city of Palmyra has the oldest churches in history where the christians still talk in aramaic. They are pretty much destroyed now by ISIS (US israel, cia, mossad woteva)....so how is it that a country ruled by islamic leaders kept these churches protected all this time?? and now a bunch of rouges destroyed them.
Quote: (03-24-2016 02:37 AM)syrianguy Wrote:
You are giving words different definitions; this is an attempt at controlling the language akin to leftist argumentation tactics. Apostasy relates to freedom of religion, in non-muslim countries you are free to believe whatever you want. Being an enemy of the state involves plotting against the state and committing treason, a different concept altogether. It is sad to see you resort to dishonest arguments already.
....
Mohammad himself routinely assassinated those who criticized him for pettiest of reasons including poetry and pranks. You are wrong again.
I looked at those links and all are people who were inciting violence and or actually at war in battles. So like I said enemy of the state...I am not being dishonest you just proved the point. nuff said.
Quote: (03-24-2016 02:37 AM)syrianguy Wrote:
From the Quran (I am using public muslims sources, you can google the verses) :
But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know.
And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease.
In case you are thinking “fight them” includes showering them with kisses and hugs until they revert back to Islam, I will turn to the Hadith to confirm the intended meaning. As you know, Hadith is the source of supporting traditions that is necessary to understand the Quran.
...
There are plenty more verses but those suffice to get the point across. There is no talk of being given a chance and having it repeatedly rejected. I don’t know where you got this from but it seems like another fabrication.
It says right there that if they repent and establish prayer then they are your brothers. That is the chance, they actually get 3 chances. After the 3rd one they are put to death. but again these are people that are at war with islam as mentioned above and proved by your references of when the prophet did it. Don't try to stir the pot.
Quote: (03-24-2016 02:37 AM)syrianguy Wrote:
More strawman arguments and deflection. We are talking about criticism of Mohammad, so I will address that.
There were many recent protests where Muslims make it clear that those who insult the prophet should be killed, this is what they believe. Muslims do intimidate, harass and ultimately assassinate critics, plenty of examples in recent times which I don’t feel the need to go over.
I do not disagree with you that there are plenty of muslims who will want to take you down if you insult their prophet coz they love him. It is like if I keep calling your mumma a whore there might be a chance I picked on the wrong dude and he goes ape on me.
but what you are trying to push here is that Islam itself says to kill someone who criticizes the prophet. Now the only time I know of that a fatwa has been given by any cleric to take someone out for doing this is by the Iranians against salman rushdie. Note that no other cleric around the world issued the same fatwa....not even the saudis agreed with it.
Quote: (03-24-2016 02:37 AM)syrianguy Wrote:
Quran 33:57
Indeed, those who abuse Allah and His Messenger - Allah has cursed them in this world and the Hereafter and prepared for them a humiliating punishment.
Quran 33:61 continued
Accursed wherever they are found, [being] seized and massacred completely.
Nice how you omit the 4 verses in between. You must have a job in MSM. Verse 58 to 60 is important coz it says specifically who should be seized.
Anyway 1st verse is typical, saying any non-believer is going to hell. no disagreement there.
Next 4 in between verses which you kindly omitted talk about those who hurt believers who have done nothing wrong and continue to do evil deeds will be taken care of in this world and hereafter.
Quote: (03-24-2016 02:37 AM)syrianguy Wrote:you cant spread religion by force, just like you cant spread democracy by force. The people have to willingly accept it. Nice try though.
Without the threat of violence, Islam is meaningless. It has no universal spiritual message, it is simply a conquest manual. Over half of the Koran is dedicated to the (brutal) treatment of the infidels. There are 164 verses relating to Jihad. There is no message here beyond submission to Allah and Mohamad which is done by force.
Yes quran speaks a lot about the brutal treatment of infidels but these are verses of engagement war and rules involved. Find me a verse that simply says to kill or hurt a non-believer just for the sake of it.
Quote: (03-24-2016 02:37 AM)syrianguy Wrote:I already said we blame the west and israel for lots of things. your point?
You really have never heard a muslim blame the west, Israel , the US, the crusades, Christianity, Judaism, hindus and even Buddhists?
I specifically blame them for masquerading as ISIS and blowing stuff up.
Quote: (03-24-2016 02:37 AM)syrianguy Wrote:
I see you are using moral relativism. Would it be justified for Christians to take back Constantinople or to claim back Alexandria ?
Take it back then. Like Donald Trump says, when we blow em up and take over their land why arent we taking the spoils, we arent getting anything out of it. This whole idea of being peace keepers and funding ISIS and kicking out dictators taking over their land and leaving with nothing is all pretending. It proves to means we are only fighting wars for soros and other elites and they get the spoils. You have to understand who the enemy is, we are both getting slaughtered here.
Trump is at least calling it as he sees it and no wander the elite hate his guts.
Quote: (03-24-2016 02:37 AM)syrianguy Wrote:
I speak Arabic, I lived in the middle-east, Europe and north America and befriended many muslims. Generally, the less religious the more open they are to western values.
hah....yeh if the values are drinking beer and such. sure I agree with you.
Quote: (03-24-2016 02:37 AM)syrianguy Wrote:
Quote: (03-23-2016 07:04 PM)doodlebug786 Wrote:
Who are these leaders you speak of?
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi: former imam and doctorate in Islamic studies.
ohh my god. you seriously didn't say that. So the guy that no one knows or ever heard of before who made a crappy youtube video years ago and has never spoken a word since is the leader of ISIS and calling the shots eh.
Nothing gets past you huh. Keep watching CNN.
Quote: (03-24-2016 02:37 AM)syrianguy Wrote:At least we agree on something. So why cant you connect the dots. If you say Mossad the jews are the ones controlling ISIS, why you believe them when they say Islam is the enemy and not mossad jews?
Quote: (03-23-2016 07:04 PM)doodlebug786 Wrote:
Trump also pointed out that we give them weapons and money and we got no idea who is who.
That's true but what's your point ? Personally, I believe that ISIS are funded by the Saudis, armed by the US, given logistics by the Turks and guided by the Mossad ( who play divide and conquer in the region). That doesn't change the facts about Islam.