I want to get married and have kids but the only way that's happening is if she lives up to my standards and earnestly shares the same beliefs.

do you guys realize how physically unattractive most women women over 35 can get? you already have a demanding boss at work why would you want another one at home? kids? they'll drain your energy and bank account, disrespect you when they're teenagers and then move to another city and you'll only see them once a year.

not to mention the devastating impact a bad divorce can have on a guy

I have a hard time fully respecting a man who has the means to raise a family but deliberately decides not to do it.

Imagine this scenario:

You have an intergenerational family meeting. A huge one. Your parents are there, your grandparents, their parents, your long deceased ancestors from 1789, hundreds of family members. They worked their arses off on farms, in mines, in factories, in offices and as self-employed entrepreneurs, under conditions inconceivable to our comfortable 21st century lifestyle. They went to war as soldiers, were likewise victims of war, poverty, exploitation, servitude or slavery. They saw nations rise and fall, they saw the farce of history repeating itself. Probably not all of them were good people but crooks, sluts, thieves, rapists, whores, traitors, impostors, liars, or murderers. Yet, they are the fucking reason you exist.

Now, everyone has a piece of cream tart on their plates and black coffee in their cups. They talk about the history of your family, the good times, the bad times, the contradictions, the failures, the successes. They argue a lot, but in the end everyone can agree on the wonder of life and that it's a good thing to see that they left a legacy, that helped not only their own children but many generations after them. To see that the great-grandchild of a rural farmworker and housemaid in Sicily owns a penthouse in Chicago. To see that the darn yuppie did not forget his roots and tells his kids about his Sicilian ancestors. To see that all the hardships and all the toil were eventually worth it. To see that not only the rich and the nobility have family histories to be proud of.

Now, everyone's turning toward you. Your cousins died in a plane crash, your parents wanted an only-child, you're the remaining successor.

All your relatives know it's not always easy in 2014, people are smartphone-addicted, the environment is destroyed, the economic system is flawed, society became shallow and stupid. Anyway, your grandfather who lost his leg in WW1 but managed return home, impregnate his wife with four kids and survive the Great Depression and your great-great-great-...-great-grandmother who survived the plague in medieval Europe with three of her nine children, ask you in calm minute:

"So, how about you, young lad? Where is your wife? When are you gonna have kids so that we can have a bigger crowd for next year's meeting?"

And you have nothing better to say than:

"Nah. You know, divorce laws kinda suck in this country, kids are expensive and in case you didn't notice: this whole feminism fucked everything up, the hoes don't respect us men anymore act in general totally unladylike. No, thanks."

Do you really want to be THAT guy?

Now, you could say: if my ancestors lived in our age they would make similar decisions, no kids, no marriage. Also: Every familyline will be discontinued at some point. Maybe my considerations are futile in the grand scheme of the cosmos where a family history of 300 years is just a footnote for the workings of time and matter. But fuck, I can't believe that some of you guys show such a disrespect to your ancestors and to their achievements. It's a denial of history and tradition, it's egoistical, it's narcissistic, it's materialistic - everything that the prevailing right-wing ideology in the manosphere despises in modern women.

Many of you guys here are decently educated, work on themselves, speak several languages and have the mindsets of traveling internationalists. No way, you can't figure out how to make a waterproof prenup, how to fuck chicks on the side when your wife gets fat or boring in bed, or at least to move to Thailand and impregnate a woman there.

I clicked on "marry, kids".

As a guy in his late 30s who works in a company/field (finance) where the vast majority of men my age are married, I could expound on this all day.

I get mixed messages about this from male coworkers/bosses. The slightly older ones encourage me but give me subtle warnings, and also are always interested in what I did over the weekend. The ones that are adamant about it always have the fat, annoying wife. Misery loves company.

I'd say the biggest difference from when before I came here to these forums and after is how I feel and answer the whole marriage question.

Before I'd be self conscious about it. A guy my age should probably be married, it would be good for my career, etc.

Now, I feel confident in my choices. Sure, I'll get married, but it will be on my terms. The fact of the matter is there is a severe lack of quality, marriageable women. Even just the basic 7, who is cute and feminine, with a pleasant disposition, is hard to find. There are a plethora of 5s and 6s out there, and they just suck. They're not fat, but they're not feminine. They are almost always these new-agey, ex-hipster women in their early-mid 30s who realize that lifestyle sucked and are looking for a provider. They think their quirky interests and personalities elevate their attractiveness, after all, that's what their friends tell them.

Not saying I get laid left and right, but meeting attractive, feminine women who are DTF has never been a problem for me. That they turn out to be criminally insane is another thing. So simply put, why would I give that up unless it is for a woman who actually has some basic feminine qualities? If the day comes when I can no longer attract bangable women, I'm fine with that. At least I'll be able to keep all I've got.

Quote: (11-13-2014 12:15 PM)Flint Wrote:  

everyone can agree on the wonder of life and that it's a good thing to see that they left a legacy

This always amuses me. Your whole post essentially could have been whittled down to this instead.

I think it's pretty arrogant to suggest that you leave some kind of legacy, like any of it really matters or that you are actually significant in the survival of man kind.

You have one life and you should live it how you see fit.

"I would get married if only..."

And that's where all debate ends. If only is the norm of 21. century western and western-like societes

Quote: (11-12-2014 06:18 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

...
In the LTR situation, once a chick gets her hooks in to you, it's becomes logistically and practically difficult to run game...unless you're heartless.

And that's the rub. If you're heartless, you don't want what marriage or parenthood brings.
...
WIA

So well stated.

To maintain LTR, you have to be heartless. If you're heartless, you don't need/want LTR.

In an ideal world a wife & kids is the way to go. I see old movies where a man has the loving supportive wife who makes him feel like the luckiest guy alive & a couple of happy kids & very much want the same thing. Sadly those days are gone. Marriage is an absolutely dangerous proposition for men today where there are very few benefits & oh so many drawbacks. Not to mention the fact that the feminist poison has basically ruined women & will take generations to correct if it is at all possible to do.

The only option that personally appeals to me in today's climate is being a single father by choice however the process to become one is very expensive in some cases running into the low 6 figures & I don't have that kind of cash. So neither is in the cards for me, not that it's entirely a bad thing. My particular branch of the family tree is rather rotten & deserves to die TBH

Quote: (11-13-2014 12:15 PM)Flint Wrote:  

I have a hard time fully respecting a man who has the means to raise a family but deliberately decides not to do it.

Imagine this scenario:

You have an intergenerational family meeting. A huge one. Your parents are there, your grandparents, their parents, your long deceased ancestors from 1789, hundreds of family members. They worked their arses off on farms, in mines, in factories, in offices and as self-employed entrepreneurs, under conditions inconceivable to our comfortable 21st century lifestyle. They went to war as soldiers, were likewise victims of war, poverty, exploitation, servitude or slavery. They saw nations rise and fall, they saw the farce of history repeating itself. Probably not all of them were good people but crooks, sluts, thieves, rapists, whores, traitors, impostors, liars, or murderers. Yet, they are the fucking reason you exist.

Now, everyone has a piece of cream tart on their plates and black coffee in their cups. They talk about the history of your family, the good times, the bad times, the contradictions, the failures, the successes. They argue a lot, but in the end everyone can agree on the wonder of life and that it's a good thing to see that they left a legacy, that helped not only their own children but many generations after them. To see that the great-grandchild of a rural farmworker and housemaid in Sicily owns a penthouse in Chicago. To see that the darn yuppie did not forget his roots and tells his kids about his Sicilian ancestors. To see that all the hardships and all the toil were eventually worth it. To see that not only the rich and the nobility have family histories to be proud of.

Now, everyone's turning toward you. Your cousins died in a plane crash, your parents wanted an only-child, you're the remaining successor.

All your relatives know it's not always easy in 2014, people are smartphone-addicted, the environment is destroyed, the economic system is flawed, society became shallow and stupid. Anyway, your grandfather who lost his leg in WW1 but managed return home, impregnate his wife with four kids and survive the Great Depression and your great-great-great-...-great-grandmother who survived the plague in medieval Europe with three of her nine children, ask you in calm minute:

"So, how about you, young lad? Where is your wife? When are you gonna have kids so that we can have a bigger crowd for next year's meeting?"

And you have nothing better to say than:

"Nah. You know, divorce laws kinda suck in this country, kids are expensive and in case you didn't notice: this whole feminism fucked everything up, the hoes don't respect us men anymore act in general totally unladylike. No, thanks."

Do you really want to be THAT guy?

Now, you could say: if my ancestors lived in our age they would make similar decisions, no kids, no marriage. Also: Every familyline will be discontinued at some point. Maybe my considerations are futile in the grand scheme of the cosmos where a family history of 300 years is just a footnote for the workings of time and matter. But fuck, I can't believe that some of you guys show such a disrespect to your ancestors and to their achievements. It's a denial of history and tradition, it's egoistical, it's narcissistic, it's materialistic - everything that the prevailing right-wing ideology in the manosphere despises in modern women.

Many of you guys here are decently educated, work on themselves, speak several languages and have the mindsets of traveling internationalists. No way, you can't figure out how to make a waterproof prenup, how to fuck chicks on the side when your wife gets fat or boring in bed, or at least to move to Thailand and impregnate a woman there.

I clicked on "marry, kids".

That's something I agree with, you got a point there.

Feminism is also a terrible poison for girls and has ruined the whole thing. I believe the world is going in the wrong direction on many points: smartphone generation, 16 y.o. single moms, etc. and that's one reason why I have a girlfriend who's not from the West. I believe "Americanization" of the girls from conservative countries is a bad phenomenon: I do not endorse conservative culture, but when girls start to want to be American everywhere, it's bad news.

So if I get a nice, non-Western girl, then I might consider Yes.

Quote: (11-13-2014 03:54 PM)alex3948 Wrote:  

I believe "Americanization" of the girls from conservative countries is a bad phenomenon: I do not endorse conservative culture,

Then you're living in cognitive dissonance.

Quote: (11-13-2014 12:24 PM)Orion Wrote:  

"I would get married if only..."

And that's where all debate ends. If only is the norm of 21. century western and western-like societes

That's exactly the problem with this kind of exercise. How many men are realistically going to meet some 18 year old unicorn who obeys their every command and remains faithful for 40 years in today's world? There's a snowball's chance in hell of that happening which is why it amazes me that this issue comes up so much.

I'd most likely follow the Danish way which I find rather ideal, by focusing hard on your career and studies in your twenties and thirties,while also having some girlfriends every once in a while and having as many close friends and circles as possible then getting to know the one and eventually making a family, marriage could be ultimately a choice but not necessarily.

What I want to know is who are the lunatics who voted "Marry, no kids"?

Team Lunatic member n° 4 presenting,where are the others?

Not in the next 10-20 years.

Who knows afterwards?

Quote: (11-14-2014 10:01 AM)Sailor Wrote:  

Team Lunatic member n° 4 presenting,where are the others?

Can I ask what your reasoning is?

I have a kid with my current girlfriend and quite frankly its a mistake I curse myself daily over. I love my child just not the bitch he came out of. The fact I can no longer escape easily and she effectively has me by the balls until hes 18. I'm now in a zombie relationship to make sure I raise him to be a better man than me. Marriage is totally off the cards however for now. Moral of the story is don't have kids guys! Unless you want to have her in your life in some form for the next 20 years.

Quote: (11-13-2014 09:19 AM)kazz Wrote:  

It would be good if we could get some more 50 + guys to tune in and tell us how there feelings towards the subject have changed over the years; I ...

I'm 55+, some things that I couldn't can't envision until at least 40:

I started to feel acutely how my idea of la dolce vita really sort of ends at the latest at 67-70? when sex becomes infrequent and not as pleasurable, athletics becomes more limited, etc. You'll notice there's very few posters here over 60. It's because they ( and soon me) don't have the same concerns as young men.

It's not a defect, as you learn and your body changes, it only natural your concerns change. You can stuff yourself with steroids etc, but telomeres deteriorate, immortality is a concern of later generations.

After that, I will consider my self a wise man, not a hedonist, and have much different concerns.

If one accepts this time frame, you accept that in your late 50s you only have about 3500 more days to really live.

Think how fast that goes by, how such a time press makes pettiness more distasteful.

Then that's it. No more "life." Life will be more like meditation and teaching.

That heightened sense of mortality caused me feel about and look at things differently:

1) There is a limited range of personalities in sane, functioning people--Each new person you meet is more and more like a person you've known previously, therefore meeting new people becomes less interesting. Because you have less time, the overhead of basic introductions, scheduling initial trust-building time, and screening for unreliable people becomes less tolerable.

The productivity of collaborating with known reliable people--including women--becomes much more important.

2) My sex drive changed and became less "athletic," one might say. Where before a particular pneumatically perfect cheerleader body under control of a dimwitted, petty mind was very appealing, now it is much less so-- likable but not worth a lot of work and time. I know I don't want the garish, expensive luxury of a Corvette, so I don't have desire to test drive one any more.

You become more aware and appreciative of subtle things, like the way a particular woman might sing while she cooks for you. The "amazing" things such as particular style/facets of beauty become less blinding as your sex drive changes. See #3.

3) As you become wiser about people, you start to sense more accurately how much a person actually cares about you, and as Janka mentioned, you value that they know you. Fucking a super-hot girl who is very narcissistic and is essentially using you for an ego-boost or dildo becomes surprisingly like playing a sport one doesn't like much. She's not really even there. The pure sensation is not as satisfying without emotional intimacy.

4) I don't feel like I have nights to waste anymore, and being in a bar or trying to organize meetings with new (usually unreliable) women leads to wasted nights sleeping alone. I don't like sleeping alone or being a full-time social engineer trying to juggle a harem (see #5). I've noticed this is in marked contrast to some players here who dislike sleeping with a woman. Everyone has different attachment circuitry, I'm not judging.

5) As I become more socially skilled and better learn to sense the needs of others more, I realize how the women I meet ( who aren't hardened sluts) crave stability for their biological role of having children.

I have had to make the existential decision as to whether I want to keep running through women (if they're not hardened sluts) letting them hope might stay with them. You have to be pretty cold knowing what's going to happen and disappointing them again and again. I don't want to wear a mask.

Also, of course it gets harder and harder to get 7+ girls, even in the third world, as you near 60, so when one likes you it becomes more and more preferable to hang on to her instead of going through the whole tedious routine of looking for a another girl 30 years younger than yourself.

6) Traveling and jet lag become more tiring and less appealing, and as I've only recently noticed, I think adapting to new climates also has. I was exhausted for at least 6 weeks after my recent move to the Philippines. I think it was a combination of culture shock at widespread poverty, high humidity, and more/different bacteria in the environment.

7) Like mentioned before, the more places you've been, the the more each new place is similar to a previous one. Only so many environments can support human life. So I've started to want to find a favorable place and let myself feel comfortable there. "Settle down" are dirty words to adventurous young men, there are some places I really like and want to be there as much as I can in my limited time left.

8) Politics has become less and less interesting to me. Large cultural changes like the advent of Feminism, Communism, and civil rights take multiple decades to happen. More like half-centuries, really. I think the time from the last race-hate lynching in the USA to when Black people could fairly easily vote was about 50 years.

So I won't be around to see any real significant change in these areas. Actually , I HOPE I won't be around to see sudden changes, because it seems most positive change is incremental. It's easy to destroy something, hard to build. I don't think I would have wanted to live in Russia after the Bolshevik Revolution. Even though the Civil War ended slavery, I wouldn't have wanted to live through it. I'm more focused on what I want to do with my life and people who are wound up about these things are less interesting to me.

I've accepted that there are people that are smarter than me that are better equipped to manage public policy, even though bizarre aberrations like the American family court system emerge, I'm not going to spend my limited time fighting City Hall. It's true somebody has to do it or we end up ruled by royal demons at some point, but I'll leave it to people who enjoy it. They have the right to judge me a bad citizen, and I have the right to ignore them.

I don't judge as harshly, as I've worked with criminals for years. Compared to murderers, people who disagree with me politically are cuddly bunnies. I don't think there's one arch-conservative Congressmen whom I would really disagree with who would want to gun me down because we disagree. As long as someone doesn't practically want to murder me, I feel most people want others to be happy and just disagree how to best have that. I don't see monsters behind every lamppost.

9) I'm slowing intellectually, especially since late forties. Memory recall is slower. My creativity is still pretty high, but I want to complete existing projects, not engage in new ones that will take 20 years or more. One can easily extrapolate "If my mind slowed down this much in the last 10 years, what will it be like in 20?" When you are younger you can delude yourself that exercise, food, positive thinking will stop it, but that's just forgetting the fact we all decline and disappear completely.

10) I want to concentrate on what's fun for me: music, nature, bicycles, and a sweet and loving woman who's happy with me, and happy I'm happy with her.

If I don't enjoy my life, no one else will enjoy it for me.

Still waiting for someone to provide me with some good reasons to get married.

As for having kids, this is just self serving ego extension. It's selfish to bring a child into this fucked up place, they could be born with defects, have social problems that you become responsible for, they could abandon you later in life and steal all your wealth...to many risks, not sure of the rewards.

Many of my married friends with kids say 'you won't know until you have kids', well I ask them, what is your experience of what it's like to live free without kids from the moment you had a kid?

There are other paths in life that men never consider, think of the possibilities of what can be achieved with all that energy not being diverted towards family.

I have been married and divorced twice. All the money and bullshit is worth it when I see my grand children scampering around the house on holidays. Deep satisfaction in passing your genes down through the generations.

Quote: (11-17-2014 10:23 AM)Bobco Wrote:  

All the money and bullshit is worth it when I see my grand children scampering around the house on holidays.

Could have easily been achieved without going through the marriage/divorce meatgrinder.

Careful though - do that in the Anglosphere and you'll wind up with common law marriage and be just as screwed. That's what's nice about Quebec - not a common law jurisdiction so no sick thing. Remember it isn't about where you get married, it's about where you get divorced.

But yes, it's more economical and safer to just knock up a suitable breeder and send in the child support checks, thereby not risking any attachment to marital assets. You can even get visitation rights this way. Honestly any rich guy who doesn't do this is throwing his money away.

Quote: (11-13-2014 12:15 PM)Flint Wrote:  

I have a hard time fully respecting a man who has the means to raise a family but deliberately decides not to do it.

Imagine this scenario:

You have an intergenerational family meeting. A huge one. ...... in the end everyone can agree on the wonder of life and that it's a good thing to see that they left a legacy, that helped not only their own children but many generations after them. To see that the great-grandchild of a rural farmworker and housemaid in Sicily owns a penthouse in Chicago. To see that the darn yuppie did not forget his roots and tells his kids about his Sicilian ancestors. To see that all the hardships and all the toil were eventually worth it. To see that not only the rich and the nobility have family histories to be proud of...

Now, everyone's turning toward you. ...

"So, how about you, young lad? Where is your wife? When are you gonna have kids so that we can have a bigger crowd for next year's meeting?"
...

I clicked on "marry, kids".

This is an awesome post. I have visions of this. This is right on in my thinking. I often ask myself in any decision, "what would my grandfathers think about this?"

I don't want to get married, but I want to have kids

Quote: (11-13-2014 12:15 PM)Flint Wrote:  

I have a hard time fully respecting a man who has the means to raise a family but deliberately decides not to do it.

Imagine this scenario:

You have an intergenerational family meeting. A huge one. Your parents are there, your grandparents, their parents, your long deceased ancestors from 1789, hundreds of family members. They worked their arses off on farms, in mines, in factories, in offices and as self-employed entrepreneurs, under conditions inconceivable to our comfortable 21st century lifestyle. They went to war as soldiers, were likewise victims of war, poverty, exploitation, servitude or slavery. ...

... your grandfather who lost his leg in WW1 but managed return home, impregnate his wife with four kids and survive the Great Depression and your great-great-great-...-great-grandmother who survived the plague in medieval Europe with three of her nine children, ask you in calm minute:

"So, how about you, young lad? Where is your wife? When are you gonna have kids so that we can have a bigger crowd for next year's meeting?"

I'll tell you what: Don't just give me their marital status. When I can have the ENTIRE environment they had - legal, social, political - then I'll marry. But asking me to accept their marital status but keep THIS legal environment, when men are little more than targets, is preposterous. Likewise, your grandfather with the one leg? His wife fucked him when he SAID she would fuck him. And she cooked 3 meals a day, cleaned the house, ironed his shirts, sewed the holes in his socks, changed every diaper, and stopped talking when told. I'll take that deal, too. But asking me to marry some used-up 35 year old status-seeking attention whore, only to have a legal sword of Damocles over my head every minute she isn't haaaaaaapy, is ridiculous.