BBC Article

I've never lived in California but it seems chock full of double-standard libtards. On one hand you have stringent regulations on just about everything a person can do or own and on the other they slash through red tape to do anything in the name of "social justice."

Why don't the lawyers and judges conferring the law license spend their time helping the SOB get his visa? What's he going to do now that he's an illegal lawyer? Practice law and not have to pay any taxes on $100,000+/year?

I swear I would not be surprised if I read an article tomorrow about how a group of 1,000 illegal immigrants in LA got together in front of a police station and yelled "we are illegal immigrants and you can all eat a bag of cocks."

The police would probably give them coffee and doughnuts.

I have nothing against this guy personally, he seems like a hard-working, stand-up guy. But really, this cannot continue. We simply do not have a country if we cannot enforce some kind of border and immigration control. We are just a place on the map where people come to make money. Why doesn't this guy go back to Mexico and practice law? The article says he lived there from age 9 to 17. That's certainly long enough to be familiar with the country and its culture. Do we really owe it to any person in the world to allow them to waltz into our country and claim most of the practical benefits of citizenship? Especially during a time of economic hardship when natural-born citizens are in need?

Quote: (01-02-2014 05:38 PM)svenski7 Wrote:  

BBC Article

I swear I would not be surprised if I read an article tomorrow about how a group of 1,000 illegal immigrants in LA got together in front of a police station and yelled "we are illegal immigrants and you can all eat a bag of cocks."

You have two options: Either you kick out the 30 million Mexicans that now live in the USA at gun point (and their American born children); or you grant all of them with a plain amnesty.
I don't see Americnas making choice #1 (altough they can give you a surprise); so I guess the fat lady has sung.
After that you can ensure tight and effective border controls.

Right now we got rare and random school from crazy people freaking everyone out. What's the pubic going to do when pissed off sane men start firing .308 rounds into certain crowds? Like a 1000 unregistered Americans standing in front of a police station.

America is like a pressure cooker that's been on the stove WAAAAAAYYYY to long.

Or you could make the working conditions so bad they want to leave and enforce that companies can't hire illegals.

Quote: (01-02-2014 06:50 PM)kbell Wrote:  

Or you could make the working conditions so bad they want to leave and enforce that companies can't hire illegals.

Good luck with that! As far as I can see Americans are very comfortable having illegals doing some jobs. Besides, Big Money calls the shots in Washington DC, so I don't see a chance on that one.

The media frames it as "immigrant without a green card" to sugarcoat it, but essentially what this means is that ANY random foreigner who wanders into California, enrolls in law school and passes the state bar can set up shop in California and start filing lawsuits and sending shakedown letters.

Quote: (01-02-2014 07:41 PM)Luvianka Wrote:  

Quote: (01-02-2014 06:50 PM)kbell Wrote:  

Or you could make the working conditions so bad they want to leave and enforce that companies can't hire illegals.

Good luck with that! As far as I can see Americans are very comfortable having illegals doing some jobs. Besides, Big Money calls the shots in Washington DC, so I don't see a chance on that one.

When I've listened to folks who are more educated than me on the topic, the point has been made that America's economy as it currently stands is dependent on cheap, below-minimum-wage labour.

There are a lot of jobs that undocumented immigrants do that no American would do, for any wage.

Quote: (01-02-2014 06:30 PM)Luvianka Wrote:  

You have two options: Either you kick out the 30 million Mexicans that now live in the USA at gun point (and their American born children)

I like this idea best. Guns make everything more fun. However, a more likely scenario is during an economic meltdown most will leave anyways, and the rest that are left will be 'runnoft' by guns. Cause you know, when the regular citizens are scrambling for food, there won't really be much patience for the non-citizen ones.

Quote: (01-02-2014 06:30 PM)Luvianka Wrote:  

;or you grant all of them with a plain amnesty.

Epic. When shit cooks off here, holy fuck. How can politicians even be talking about this?

Quote: (01-02-2014 07:54 PM)Suits Wrote:  

Quote: (01-02-2014 07:41 PM)Luvianka Wrote:  

Quote: (01-02-2014 06:50 PM)kbell Wrote:  

Or you could make the working conditions so bad they want to leave and enforce that companies can't hire illegals.

Good luck with that! As far as I can see Americans are very comfortable having illegals doing some jobs. Besides, Big Money calls the shots in Washington DC, so I don't see a chance on that one.

When I've listened to folks who are more educated than me on the topic, the point has been made that America's economy as it currently stands is dependent on cheap, below-minimum-wage labour.

There are a lot of jobs that undocumented immigrants do that no American would do, for any wage.

Nonsense, less than a century ago all those "jobs Americans wont do" were held by okies, sicilians, azoreans, and polaks.

When you aren't being held accountable to labor laws it's entirely possible to survive at being paid at 5 dollars an hour under the table. You shack up in some tiny apartment with 6 other people, have a couple tall boys of bud light after work, and send the remainder back home.

And instead of helping out the ones who patriate into the US, we are just creating a new semipermanent underclass of cheap farm labor.

I can't imagine why a professional would give a rat's ass about illegal immigration. I can't see how it particularly affects an educated, white collar worker in an adverse way. Illegal immigrants are relegated to some of the least desirable jobs one can have in the US. Can anyone make a "cogent" argument articulating how it's a compelling problem for me or really anyone on this thread? Also, I have no problem with people who come here and are willing to work. I can't tell you how many lazy, entitled Americans I've come across - educated or not - that have no sense of hustle. If someone's willing to shell out money and trek through Mexico among shady ass smugglers and gangsters just to get the opportunity to come here and WORK, more power to them.

Quote: (01-02-2014 08:34 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I can't imagine why a professional would give a rat's ass about illegal immigration. I can't see how it particularly affects an educated, white collar worker in an adverse way. Illegal immigrants are relegated to some of the least desirable jobs one can have in the US. Can anyone make a "cogent" argument articulating how it's a compelling problem for me or really anyone on this thread? Also, I have no problem with people who come here and are willing to work. I can't tell you how many lazy, entitled Americans I've come across - educated or not - that have no sense of hustle. If someone's willing to shell out money and trek through Mexico among shady ass smugglers and gangsters just to get the opportunity to come here and WORK, more power to them.

1. They are net negatives due to our welfare system.

2. They increase crime rates.

3. Second and third generation immigrants are welfare leeches and lack the work ethic of their parents.

4. I also fully support deporting unproductive Americans to some island somewhere.

Quote: (01-02-2014 08:34 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I can't imagine why a professional would give a rat's ass about illegal immigration. I can't see how it particularly affects an educated, white collar worker in an adverse way. Illegal immigrants are relegated to some of the least desirable jobs one can have in the US. Can anyone make a "cogent" argument articulating how it's a compelling problem for me or really anyone on this thread? Also, I have no problem with people who come here and are willing to work. I can't tell you how many lazy, entitled Americans I've come across - educated or not - that have no sense of hustle. If someone's willing to shell out money and trek through Mexico among shady ass smugglers and gangsters just to get the opportunity to come here and WORK, more power to them.

How does it "particularly affect" an educated worker? Drives up the price of real estate, forces professionals to take out huge mortgage loans cause guess what, white-collar workers don't want to send their kids to school with diverse, vibrant cholos who keep taking up more and more of the city.

Quote: (01-02-2014 08:54 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Quote: (01-02-2014 08:34 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I can't imagine why a professional would give a rat's ass about illegal immigration. I can't see how it particularly affects an educated, white collar worker in an adverse way. Illegal immigrants are relegated to some of the least desirable jobs one can have in the US. Can anyone make a "cogent" argument articulating how it's a compelling problem for me or really anyone on this thread? Also, I have no problem with people who come here and are willing to work. I can't tell you how many lazy, entitled Americans I've come across - educated or not - that have no sense of hustle. If someone's willing to shell out money and trek through Mexico among shady ass smugglers and gangsters just to get the opportunity to come here and WORK, more power to them.

1. They are net negatives due to our welfare system.

2. They increase crime rates.

3. Second and third generation immigrants are welfare leeches and lack the work ethic of their parents.

4. I also fully support deporting unproductive Americans to some island somewhere.

5. Juanita the illegal pops out a prenatal baby that requires 2 months in the hospital yet of course she doesnt have health insurance. Who do you think is paying that bill? You and I are. Same thing w/her husband Jose the illegal who sticks his hand in the lawnmower blade and ends up in the hospital. Or their kid Pablo who has diabetes because he eats garbage all day and doesnt exercise. So yeah, strawberries are a little cheaper because the labor is cheaper, but you are getting screwed in many other ways. Also they are taking jobs that a lot of lower class people and teenagers should be doing. Sure, nobody wants to clean toilets, but when your welfare gets cut off and your options are cleaning toilets for $12/hr or dying of starvation that scrub brush becomes your best friend.

Why do people think that immigrants don't pay taxes? Immigrants pay taxes just like anywhere else. Plus, they pay into social security and Medicare and won't get any of those benefits unless they become naturalized.

Also, illegals are not eligible for most welfare benefits.

Virtually all economists agree that immigrants - illegal and legal - benefit the US economy, and raise the income of most Americans. Illegal immigrants are, in fact, a net gain on the nation's balance sheet, by most findings.

Only those Americans who choose not to get even a high school diploma are generally undercut by illegal immigrants.

Quote:Quote:

There are many ways to debate immigration, but when it comes to economics, there isn’t much of a debate at all. Nearly all economists, of all political persuasions, agree that immigrants — those here legally or not — benefit the overall economy. “That is not controversial,” Heidi Shierholz, an economist at the Economic Policy Institute, told me. Shierholz also said that “there is a consensus that, on average, the incomes of families in this country are increased by a small, but clearly positive amount, because of immigration.”

The benefit multiplies over the long haul. As the baby boomers retire, the post-boom generation’s burden to finance their retirement is greatly alleviated by undocumented immigrants. Stephen Goss, chief actuary for the Social Security Administration, told me that undocumented workers contribute about $15 billion a year to Social Security through payroll taxes. They only take out $1 billion (very few undocumented workers are eligible to receive benefits). Over the years, undocumented workers have contributed up to $300 billion, or nearly 10 percent, of the $2.7 trillion Social Security Trust Fund.

The problem, though, is that undocumented workers are not evenly distributed. In areas like southern Texas and Arizona and even parts of Brooklyn, undocumented immigrants impose a substantial net cost to local and state governments, Shierholz says. Immigrants use public assistance, medical care and schools. Some immigrant neighborhoods have particularly high crime rates. Jared Bernstein, a fellow at the Center for Budget and Policy Priorities, told me that these are also areas in which low-educated workers are most likely to face stiff competition from immigrants. It’s no wonder why so much political furor comes from these regions.

Undocumented workers represent a classic economic challenge with a fairly straightforward solution. Immigrants bring diffuse and hard-to-see benefits to average Americans while imposing more tangible costs on a few, Shierholz says. The dollar value of the benefits far outweigh the costs, so the government could just transfer extra funds to those local populations that need more help.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magazi...ted=2&_r=0

Also, as far as crime goes, it seems the opposite of majority opinion seems to hold true, according to recent data. More illegal immigration, less crime.

I would think that granting amnesty or some type of legality to the status of illegal immigrants would encourage them to live out in the open and cooperate more with local police without fear of getting arrested or deported.

Quote:Quote:

A frequent argument of those proposing tougher illegal immigration policies is that illegal immigration goes hand-in-hand with more crime. They cite the fact that illegal immigrants must already live outside the law and suggest that the violent drug cartels operating across Mexico's border could bring their criminal behavior into the U.S. Are these arguments right? Here are cases for and against.

Extreme Enforcement Increases Crime The Washington Post's Spencer Hsu reports that "police chiefs from several of the state's and the nation's largest cities" agree that "Arizona's new crackdown on illegal immigration will increase crime in U.S. cities, not reduce it, by driving a wedge between police and immigrant communities. ... Arizona's law will intimidate crime victims and witnesses who are illegal immigrants and divert police from investigating more serious crimes." These police chiefs are not arguing that any immigration enforcement increases crime, only that Arizona-style extreme enforcement can increase crime.

...One Place Where That Wasn't The Case Prince William County, a Virginia suburb of Washington DC, became notorious in years past for its Arizona-like extreme immigration enforcement. National Review's John Miller points out that "crime rates are at a 15-year low" in the county. "The latest numbers are part of a trend that started long before the county took a stand against illegal immigration. One thing is certain: The county's current policy has not led to more crime."
Immigration Sanctuaries Don't Reduce Crime National Review's Heather MacDonald looks at the other extreme: Sanctuary cities. "This standard argument in favor of local sanctuary policies has never been tested empirically by comparing witness involvement in sanctuary and non-sanctuary cities. As Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu, head of the Arizona Sheriff's Association and a supporter of SB 1070, points out, cooperation from illegal aliens is already low. ... local governments have been creating unofficial amnesties through their sanctuary laws for years. Those don't seem to have worked out so well."

Immigration Crime vs 'Serious' Crime The Moderate Voice's Jason Arvak makes the distinction. "Supporters of the law point out that illegal immigration is a crime. Ok, fair enough. But how serious of a crime is it? Does anyone die or get injured from a poor guy crossing a border looking for work picking tomatoes? Of course not. Yes, some illegal immigrants are criminals or drug runners or human traffickers, but so are a lot of citizens and legal residents."


Crime in Immigrant Communities It exists, says Doug Mataconis, which is why over-enforcement would be so counter-productive. "Communities where immigrants, legal and illegal, live are also likely to be the targets of criminal activity for a variety of reasons. If the impression is created that the local police are little more than agents of the Federal immigration authorities, then, obviously, someone who is the victim of a crime is going to be less likely to report that crime, or cooperate with investigating officers, if they believe that they risk deportation."

As Illegal Immigration Rises in Phoenix, Crime Falls The Wall Street Journal's Evan Perez reports that, from 2008 to 2009, violent crime "plunged 16.6% in Phoenix, despite a perception of rising crime that has fueled an immigration backlash." Violent crime fell 5.5% nationally. "For the first quarter of 2010, violent crime was down 17% overall in the city, while homicides were down 38% and robberies 27%, compared with the same period in 2009. Arizona's major cities all registered declines." CATO's Daniel Griswold adds, "One of the clinching arguments for Arizona's tough new law aimed at illegal immigration has been the perception in that state that crime has been rising, and that undocumented workers are largely to blame."

http://www.thewire.com/politics/2010/05/...ime/24291/

Yeah, people are going to scramble for food when the whole thing collapses, that includes Mexicans scrambling with the rest of people. But that doesn't mean they are going to leave American soil. Now, you want them out? Just tell the Marines to go block by block, street by street, house by house to kick them out at gun point; and this includes children, American children. I may be wrong, but this is not going to happen for several reasons:
-American people (White Christian and Secular People, conservatives or liberals, to be more precise) are not going to stand for that.
-American Political System is plain mercenary: it votes where the votes and the money are. Hispanic (overwhelmy Mexican) population is now a majority (or a first minority) in key geographical parts of Southwest USA (California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas). So, politicians would never dare to do something against their donors and clientele.
-Every single day for the next 20 years 10,000 boomers are going to retire. That means American economy is going to need a lot of cheap labor, also in services. Those low-paid workers are already in the USA, you don't need to bring them from Eastern Europe, India, China or Africa. Millions of Mexicans who are willing to work for pennies an hour, they just want to have legal security of their staying.
-Mexicans, being Christians and half Whites, share most of the values that made America the most powerful country in the World. I guess an increasing number of Americans are getting aware of this, and in the near future will support a pragmatic solution to the 'Mexican Problem'.

Quote: (01-02-2014 09:29 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

Virtually all economists agree that immigrants - illegal and legal - benefit the US economy, and raise the income of most Americans. Illegal immigrants are, in fact, a net gain on the nation's balance sheet, by most findings.

Virtually all economists had no problem with subprime lending and even went so far as to mock and dismiss those who saw a housing bubble.

You're going to need a better authority than economists if you're going to appeal to authority.

My opinions about illegal immigration are conflicted. At the end of the day, the points that are most relevant to me are:

1. No government can just throw up its hands completely and tell the world, "come on in, everybody, it's open season." Some sort of control and regulation of the borders is the basic responsible of any nation. How strict or how lax that control is, is the big question. America has historically always had a very generous immigration policy when compared to other countries, but some features need to be modernized. No one should be able to become a citizen automatically, just by being born here.

2. Historically, wealth and luxury invite barbarian migration. The history of the world is the history of population movements. It's understandable and predictable that impoverished immigrants would want to be here. My own grandparents were some of these people. No country can have hermetically sealed borders.

3. Our ruling classes are the ones responsible for controlling the borders. They've made it very clear that they want to slow it down, but not stop it. Big business in America wants the cheap labor, period. Agri-business and the other big businesses in America want illegal immigration. They don't care if cities and local governments are burdened. They want to make money and they want the cheap labor. So, blame the leadership here. They sold us out.

4. People like us spend time arguing about this issue, while the reality is that the issue has already been decided at paygrades way over our heads. If the American gov't really cared about solving this problem, they would solve it. But they really don't give a shit, when all is said and done. They want the Hispanic votes and the big companies need the cheap labor.

5. At the same time, there is a lot of hypocrisy going on from Mexico. What you never hear about is that Mexico abuses and exploits its own illegal immigrants who come there from Central America (El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, etc.). I find it interesting that Mexican police and society marginalize, exploit, and abuse immigrants in Mexico. Yet, they're the first ones to whine about the exploitation of Mexicans in the US.

Quote: (01-02-2014 09:42 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Quote: (01-02-2014 09:29 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

Virtually all economists agree that immigrants - illegal and legal - benefit the US economy, and raise the income of most Americans. Illegal immigrants are, in fact, a net gain on the nation's balance sheet, by most findings.

Virtually all economists had no problem with subprime lending and even went so far as to mock and dismiss those who saw a housing bubble.

You're going to need a better authority than economists if you're going to appeal to authority.

Apples and oranges. Illegal immigration has existed and been studied for much longer than the recent housing crisis.

Also, why has no one cited data when making claims about the economic and social impact of illegal immigrants? I'm just supposed to take your word?

Personally, I have zero problems with illegal immigrants. I rarely come across any in my day to day life. They aren't a factor at my job or in my community.

Immigration is a human issue, not a legal one. Every American was an immigrant somewhere down the line anyway. We are not in any position to deny others the same opportunity.

This is nothing new anyway. Nativist sentiment has always been an undercurrent of American politics, since the country's inception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativism_(politics)

Quote: (01-02-2014 09:42 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Quote: (01-02-2014 09:29 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

Virtually all economists agree that immigrants - illegal and legal - benefit the US economy, and raise the income of most Americans. Illegal immigrants are, in fact, a net gain on the nation's balance sheet, by most findings.

Virtually all economists had no problem with subprime lending and even went so far as to mock and dismiss those who saw a housing bubble.

You're going to need a better authority than economists if you're going to appeal to authority.

When a couple has to overpay by $50 per square foot for a home in a "good" school district (i.e. away from cholos), genius economists cheer because it inflates the GDP, lol.

http://www.propertychelan.com/redfin-rep...p-schools/

For an average home, and factoring in higher property taxes because of the inflated value, the home in the "good" school district will cost the professional couple an extra $160,000 plus interest.

The average American kid costs $240K to raise, so basically professional couples are spending the equivalent of 2/3 of a kid (and therefore often choosing to have less kids) just to get a house in a district that hasn't been dragged down to mediocrity by cholos and diabetic slobs.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/cost-raisi...07364.html

Quote: (01-02-2014 09:42 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Quote: (01-02-2014 09:29 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

Virtually all economists agree that immigrants - illegal and legal - benefit the US economy, and raise the income of most Americans. Illegal immigrants are, in fact, a net gain on the nation's balance sheet, by most findings.

Virtually all economists had no problem with subprime lending and even went so far as to mock and dismiss those who saw a housing bubble.

You're going to need a better authority than economists if you're going to appeal to authority.

I think you may be confusing investors with economists. I'd be willing to wager that the 2008 crisis didn't take any actual economists by surprise. The stupidity that tipped of the tidal wave of economic recession has been well documented by economics as stupid behaviour for a long time now.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntamny/20...yre-lying/

Quote: (01-02-2014 09:50 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

My opinions about illegal immigration are conflicted. At the end of the day, the points that are most relevant to me are:

1. No government can just throw up its hands completely and tell the world, "come on in, everybody, it's open season." Some sort of control and regulation of the borders is the basic responsible of any nation. How strict or how lax that control is, is the big question. America has historically always had a very generous immigration policy when compared to other countries, but some features need to be modernized. No one should be able to become a citizen automatically, just by being born here.

2. Historically, wealth and luxury invite barbarian migration. The history of the world is the history of population movements. It's understandable and predictable that impoverished immigrants would want to be here. My own grandparents were some of these people. No country can have hermetically sealed borders.

Time is now. American economy can no longer stand for an open influx of inmigrants. In the meantime you have to deal with the problem of +30 million Mexicans living in the US. You can have them marginalized for a long period or integrate them to American society ASAP.

You bet any illegal inmigrant better like to be arrested by the Border Patrol than any Mexican Police officer. That's for sure.

Quote: (01-02-2014 09:56 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

Every American was an immigrant somewhere down the line anyway.

Heh. Our ancestors came here when America was a dangerous, faraway enigma. We can't compare what our ancestors did - sailing across the seas to build a land that was mostly undeveloped and wild, not even a country - and the current crop who waited until we got fat and rich to decide to come over, then immediately demanding affirmative action and scholarships for their spawn.