Quote: (12-26-2013 01:34 PM)Ensam Wrote:  

Quote: (12-24-2013 01:32 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

To put it simply. Why should a guy be taxed for investing his earned money on creating jobs and growing buinesses? When he wouldn't be taxed at all if he just blew the money on hookers, alcohol, champagne, drugs, holidays, cars and hotels?

Unless he does it in New Hampshire he'd still be paying sales tax on the consumption (or should anyway - I don't know many hookers who bother to collect sales tax properly on their services).

Even though some guys in this thread seem to be restful about paying taxes, the point is that a guy is taxed on the income earned from his investments in different ways as compared with taxes on his consumption.

The guy investing to create passive income maintains an incentive to invest, and the more moneythat he has to invest, the more likely that he would be able to live strictly off that passive income, and NOT have to work.

Some kinds of investments benefit the society more than others, and I would NOT assume that all investments are equal. Probably, the investments that are in fact creating social benefits should be taxed at a lower rate than the investments (such as vulture investments) that are purely sucking the value out of some company and reaping the rewards for a few while the public bears the burden.

I am unclear about the question that is currently pending in this thread b/c it does seem that OP's question was answered, and it seems to be recognized as answered, but then asked again. The premise of the original question was clarified that capital gains is NOT double taxation b/c it merely taxes earnings on future investments rather than taxing the original principle.

Quote: (12-26-2013 08:11 AM)cardguy Wrote:  

Anyone else agree that Capital Gains tax is double taxation (as detailed in my original post)?

Or perhaps it isn't double taxation since it only applies to any profits you make from your investment?

There have been some good points on this thread - but I feel I am back to square one in terms of not being sure which side is correct.

Of course it is double taxation. It is already taxed at the corporate level and then taxed on a personal level.

Same goes for gifts. If I were to give my parents 1 million dollars, they would have to pay personal income taxes on that even though I already paid personal taxes on that income.

Anytime money changes hands, it is taxed.

If the capital gains tax is raised more and more, business will just keep the money. There would be no incentives to paying out dividends which would also hurt the retirees. People think they can hurt the rich by increasing taxes on them but it normally only hurts the middle income families in the end.

Quote: (12-26-2013 02:24 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Quote: (12-26-2013 08:11 AM)cardguy Wrote:  

Anyone else agree that Capital Gains tax is double taxation (as detailed in my original post)?

Or perhaps it isn't double taxation since it only applies to any profits you make from your investment?

There have been some good points on this thread - but I feel I am back to square one in terms of not being sure which side is correct.

Of course it is double taxation. It is already taxed at the corporate level and then taxed on a personal level.

In this thread, I thought that we were beyond this double taxation question when it comes to capital gains.

Let’s say that a guy earns $1 million from his job over the years and he had been saving that money. Thereafter, he decides that he is going to invest that $1 million into some passive investment, such as a stock index fund. Then 2 years later, when he withdraws $1.2 million from his investment, he is NOT taxed on the $1.2 million, he is only taxed on the $200,000, which is the gain from the investment. We may be getting our definitions mixed up, but I would NOT call that double taxation, and I would NOT call it a problem, especially for someone with that level of gain. It is more of a problem for the person with the smaller income, getting taxed here, there and everywhere.

Quote: (12-26-2013 02:24 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Same goes for gifts. If I were to give my parents 1 million dollars, they would have to pay personal income taxes on that even though I already paid personal taxes on that income.

Gifts are a different story, and yes, that seems more like double taxation, and the rationale for gift taxes is different (and whether just or NOT is another story). If you gift less than $10k per year, then there is NO tax, and also there can be various loophole in hiding the gift - NOT always easy for guys trying to operate above board.

Quote: (12-26-2013 02:24 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Anytime money changes hands, it is taxed.

This statement is NOT true b/c there are a lot of transactions that may NOT be taxed, but I would agree that regular people are taxed way too much, and if more of the tax burden was carried at the top of the income scale (such at those above $1million per year and get rid of some loopholes and corporate welfare subsidies), then maybe regular people earning less than $200,000 per year would NOT have to be nickled and dimed to death with all these bullshit taxes.

I am with YOU and a lot of guys on this thread that in many ways regular people are getting taxed too much, and to me, that this extra taxation seems to be happening because the very well to do have way too many loopholes and they are NOT paying their fair share. This taxation system is NOT the big bad govt running off with the taxes, but rather the wealthy failing and /or refusing to pay their fair share, and accordingly poning (shafting) the govt and the rest of the people.

Quote: (12-26-2013 02:55 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

In this thread, I thought that we were beyond this double taxation question when it comes to capital gains.

Let’s say that a guy earns $1 million from his job over the years and he had been saving that money. Thereafter, he decides that he is going to invest that $1 million into some passive investment, such as a stock index fund. Then 2 years later, when he withdraws $1.2 million from his investment, he is NOT taxed on the $1.2 million, he is only taxed on the $200,000, which is the gain from the investment. We may be getting our definitions mixed up, but I would NOT call that double taxation, and I would NOT call it a problem, especially for someone with that level of gain. It is more of a problem for the person with the smaller income, getting taxed here, there and everywhere.

No one said he would be taxed on the 1.2 million in your example. We are saying that even if he is taxed on the 200k it was already taxed at the corporate level.

If he invested in stocks, they are part owners of the companies. The companies pay tax, send out money in the form of dividends which is also taxed.

Double taxation.

See that is the main problem and a lot of you guys can't seem to recognize it. You say it is ok for someone with more money because they can absorb the taxes easier but recognize that it isn't quite fair for someone with lower income because they feel it more.

That is bullshit reasoning.

You guys still haven't realized that when you call for changes it may start with rich people but those changes will trickle down to the masses.

Mainly to the middle income. Look at Obamacare... Many people were for it until they realized they had to pay for it. haha

Man, it is sort of like saying you agree with freedom of speech unless that speech is something that you don't agree with. You can't segregate people like that and say it is "ok". Everyone can take advantage of the same loopholes. You just need to start your own company and be profitable. The problem is most people can't do that or are lazy and would rather tell others they need to pay more. The funny thing is those people end up paying more in the end.

Quote:Quote:

This statement is NOT true b/c there are a lot of transactions that may NOT be taxed, but I would agree that regular people are taxed way too much, and if more of the tax burden was carried at the top of the income scale (such at those above $1million per year and get rid of some loopholes and corporate welfare subsidies), then maybe regular people earning less than $200,000 per year would NOT have to be nickled and dimed to death with all these bullshit taxes.

Name some transactions that don't have taxes attached.

Quote:Quote:

I am with YOU and a lot of guys on this thread that in many ways regular people are getting taxed too much, and to me, that this extra taxation seems to be happening because the very well to do have way too many loopholes and they are NOT paying their fair share. This taxation system is NOT the big bad govt running off with the taxes, but rather the wealthy failing and /or refusing to pay their fair share, and accordingly poning (shafting) the govt and the rest of the people.

Rich people pay the majority of all taxes. I keep hearing they don't pay their fair share when they pay 70% of all taxes. People are considered rich when they make over 200k a year now. What is fair? Should rich people pay 90% of all taxes?

Quote: (12-26-2013 03:04 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Quote: (12-26-2013 02:55 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

In this thread, I thought that we were beyond this double taxation question when it comes to capital gains.

Let’s say that a guy earns $1 million from his job over the years and he had been saving that money. Thereafter, he decides that he is going to invest that $1 million into some passive investment, such as a stock index fund. Then 2 years later, when he withdraws $1.2 million from his investment, he is NOT taxed on the $1.2 million, he is only taxed on the $200,000, which is the gain from the investment. We may be getting our definitions mixed up, but I would NOT call that double taxation, and I would NOT call it a problem, especially for someone with that level of gain. It is more of a problem for the person with the smaller income, getting taxed here, there and everywhere.

No one said he would be taxed on the 1.2 million in your example. We are saying that even if he is taxed on the 200k it was already taxed at the corporate level.

If he invested in stocks, they are part owners of the companies. The companies pay tax, send out money in the form of dividends which is also taxed.

Double taxation.

Quote:Quote:

This statement is NOT true b/c there are a lot of transactions that may NOT be taxed, but I would agree that regular people are taxed way too much, and if more of the tax burden was carried at the top of the income scale (such at those above $1million per year and get rid of some loopholes and corporate welfare subsidies), then maybe regular people earning less than $200,000 per year would NOT have to be nickled and dimed to death with all these bullshit taxes.

Name some transactions that don't have taxes attached.

Quote:Quote:

I am with YOU and a lot of guys on this thread that in many ways regular people are getting taxed too much, and to me, that this extra taxation seems to be happening because the very well to do have way too many loopholes and they are NOT paying their fair share. This taxation system is NOT the big bad govt running off with the taxes, but rather the wealthy failing and /or refusing to pay their fair share, and accordingly poning (shafting) the govt and the rest of the people.

Rich people pay the majority of all taxes. I keep hearing they don't pay their fair share when they pay 70% of all taxes. People are considered rich when they make over 200k a year now. What is fair? Should rich people pay 90% of all taxes?

1. Double taxation. No its not, its entity structure. A person earning that same money via an S-corporation or self employment would pay about 45% with self employment tax and their tax bracket. The dividend recipient from a C corp gets to that same level when adding capital gains tax and the corporate tax.

2. Non taxable transactions, you can actually go higher on the gifts. 5 million in a lifetime. You and a spouse can trade money without it being a gift. Put money into a business, land, home, sell a primary residence with up to $200k gain. Education savings, health insurance, retirement. Pretty much the whole business private tax advisors is helping people with non taxable transactions.

3. Tax parity and fairness. I don't think its fair. Bring back Herman Cain's 9-9-9. That shit was plain and fair, everyone had the same rules. I think 'fair' just means equal, whether everyone pays 10% or 40%

You guys are conflating dividends and capital gains.

Dividends are corporate profits that are paid out to investors. You can make the argument that dividends are double taxed because the corporation paid taxes on their profit. Of course all money is taxed multiple times if you use that logic. A non taxed exchange is the exception rather than the rule. The justification I like is that the government provides the rule of law that allows you to make such exchanges and thus is entitled to a cut. And don't think people who have blackmarket jobs don't pay taxes, they just pay them in different ways. Bribes, payoffs, protection money, etc. are all things respectible citizens don't have to worry about. We just pay taxes.

Capital gains are the profits from selling a security for more money than you bought it. The underlying company might not have paid taxes at all that year - or any of the years you held the security. Plenty of stocks go up in value even though the companies themselves haven't yet generated any cash flow to be taxed.

Quote: (12-26-2013 03:36 PM)Ensam Wrote:  

You guys are conflating dividends and capital gains.

Dividends are corporate profits that are paid out to investors. You can make the argument that dividends are double taxed because the corporation paid taxes on their profit. Of course all money is taxed multiple times if you use that logic. A non taxed exchange is the exception rather than the rule. The justification I like is that the government provides the rule of law that allows you to make such exchanges and thus is entitled to a cut. And don't think people who have blackmarket jobs don't pay taxes, they just pay them in different ways. Bribes, payoffs, protection money, etc. are all things respectible citizens don't have to worry about. We just pay taxes.

Capital gains are the profits from selling a security for more money than you bought it. The underlying company might not have paid taxes at all that year - or any of the years you held the security. Plenty of stocks go up in value even though the companies themselves haven't yet generated any cash flow to be taxed.

No, we are, or at least I am, talking about qualified dividends which is taxed at the same rate as long term capital gains.

That was the point I was making all along, we get taxed pretty much every time money changes hands.

Quote: (12-26-2013 03:28 PM)wiscanada Wrote:  

2. Non taxable transactions, you can actually go higher on the gifts. 5 million in a lifetime. You and a spouse can trade money without it being a gift. Put money into a business, land, home, sell a primary residence with up to $200k gain. Education savings, health insurance, retirement. Pretty much the whole business private tax advisors is helping people with non taxable transactions.

Dude, which retirement vehicle has you paying no taxes when you take it out. You got me interested.

As for the other stuff, I know there are exemptions for gifting but still think it is bullshit that you are limited.

Quote: (12-26-2013 03:04 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

No one said he would be taxed on the 1.2 million in your example. We are saying that even if he is taxed on the 200k it was already taxed at the corporate level.

If he invested in stocks, they are part owners of the companies. The companies pay tax, send out money in the form of dividends which is also taxed.

Double taxation.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the scenario that is being described? I am presenting a straight-forward scenario in which I believe capital gains would apply. And, in my described scenario, the $200 K is only being taxed once. Maybe you want to outline the dividends and corporate tax that would also apply in that situation, b/c I do NOT see it. You mention that a guy is getting dividends and being taxed on it, and the company was also taxed on the dividends. That is a different scenario than the one that i I presented.

If a guy wants to structure his income that way, then yes there is going to be some double taxation. I am NO expert, but I would imagine that there are ways to structure income in order NOT to have that double taxation problem, and if double taxation is the best that you can do, then so be it. getting into business complications rather than straight forward capital gains, which is beyond my expertise, if any.

Quote: (12-26-2013 03:04 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Name some transactions that don't have taxes attached.

I'm NO expert, but off the top of my head, gifts of under $10k per year (this can be big, if set up over many years and given to many entities), and Wiscanada referred to this. Inheritance of under $1 million (or whatever the current number is). trusts can be created in which NO tax applies. deals in cash in which they are NOT reported. There are a lot of sharing arrangements that can be entered into in which No tax applies, even though wealth is transferred. Some kinds of services can be paid without tax on the end of the payer

Quote: (12-26-2013 03:04 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Rich people pay the majority of all taxes. I keep hearing they don't pay their fair share when they pay 70% of all taxes. People are considered rich when they make over 200k a year now. What is fair? Should rich people pay 90% of all taxes?

I used $200K as a number that most of us in this thread probably do NOT make in a year anyhow - even though $200k is no where near where most of the real wealthy are. My point is that as income rises, more of that money should be taxed - and probably regular people... below $200k should NOT have to be taxed in great ways. I am saying regular people are below $200k, and NOT that wealthy are above $200k - As income goes up, then more tax needs to be levied as on the margins b/c that is what is fair to support the infrastructure.

This is NOT an argument to give money to big inefficient govt but a means to make sure that infrastructure is built and maintained.

Quote: (12-26-2013 03:28 PM)wiscanada Wrote:  

3. Tax parity and fairness. I don't think its fair. Bring back Herman Cain's 9-9-9. That shit was plain and fair, everyone had the same rules. I think 'fair' just means equal, whether everyone pays 10% or 40%

Wiscanada,

I agree with your whole post, except flat tax just is NOT fair, especially on the extreme ends. It is regressive on the poor b/c poor people need a lot larger percentage of their income just for basic necessities, and on the extremely wealthy side it does NOT tax enough - b/c once a guy gets into the filthy rich category of income of multimillions a year, he does NOT need that much income b/c there are only so many yachts that a guy needs to buy, and guys do NOT need 100 servants and guys do NOT deserve to be buying islands and countries.

That is why I need to stop discussing this stuff. It tends to be the poorer people who think in a particular way. The guys who work for someone else and haven't taken the risks and sacrifices necessary to build wealth. They don't see how guys can sacrifice for a decade to hit it big and then the vultures come out saying they need to pay their fair share even though they pay more in a year than most would in a lifetime.

Everyone has access to the same infrastructure but the wealthy needs to pay for it. Fuckin funny shit.

Quote: (12-26-2013 04:10 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

I agree with your whole post, except flat tax just is NOT fair, especially on the extreme ends. It is regressive on the poor b/c poor people need a lot larger percentage of their income just for basic necessities, and on the extremely wealthy side it does NOT tax enough - b/c once a guy gets into the filthy rich category of income of multimillions a year, he does NOT need that much income b/c there are only so many yachts that a guy needs to buy, and guys do NOT need 100 servants and guys do NOT deserve to be buying islands and countries.

Cmon Jay, I am sure there are a lot of things in your life you don't need or deserve. I think it is time you sell them and pay your fair share man.

Why do you get to tell people what they deserve or need when you sit back and probably watch your television, listen to your stereo, type forum posts on your laptop, drive a nice car, wear nice clothes, etc...

I don't see cap gains as double taxation because I don't think about taxes that way. Taxes are a constant, not a single integer. If you write off business expenses does that equal half-taxation? Add some capital gains and you're at 1.5x taxation? Doesn't make sense.

I've been extolling the virtue of hustles for a while now. I'm at higher risk because of it but no risk no reward. I pay 99% of my daily living expenses in cash and the rest of it goes straight to investments with about 25% in money market.

The rich stay rich because of legal hustles. For working class hustles you're gonna have to bend the rules a little.

Quote: (12-26-2013 04:24 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Cmon Jay, I am sure there are a lot of things in your life you don't need or deserve. I think it is time you sell them and pay your fair share man.

Why do you get to tell people what they deserve or need when you sit back and probably watch your television, listen to your stereo, type forum posts on your laptop, drive a nice car, wear nice clothes, etc...

Horribly faulty logic. You can't compare the income disparity between lower and middle class to the income disparity between middle class and upper class.

Quote: (12-26-2013 04:15 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

That is why I need to stop discussing this stuff. It tends to be the poorer people who think in a particular way. The guys who work for someone else and haven't taken the risks and sacrifices necessary to build wealth. They don't see how guys can sacrifice for a decade to hit it big and then the vultures come out saying they need to pay their fair share even though they pay more in a year than most would in a lifetime.

Now, you are treading on the boarders of a form of ad hominem to suggest that someone cannot have input into these wealth distribution and taxation matters b/c he has NOT been in your exact same shoes.

I doubt that you are part of the group of filthy wealthy that I refer to, and frequently guys that struggle to build something, such as a business, are getting screwed by the same elite that are setting the various rules that cause regular and smaller business entities to be overly burdened and these elite want you to think that the "poor" are the problem. and they also want you to think that the blacks and the women are the problem. and the immigrants.. etc etc...

The truth is that the filthy wealthy have been engaged in this wealth redistribution towards the top since the 80 and continuing to date, through republicans and democrats. And, accordingly, people on the lower end are getting taxed too much and think the solution is to NOT tax.. which is the whole nontax experiment that we have been trying since the 80s, and trickle down does NOT work.

Quote: (12-26-2013 04:27 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

Quote: (12-26-2013 04:24 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Cmon Jay, I am sure there are a lot of things in your life you don't need or deserve. I think it is time you sell them and pay your fair share man.

Why do you get to tell people what they deserve or need when you sit back and probably watch your television, listen to your stereo, type forum posts on your laptop, drive a nice car, wear nice clothes, etc...

Horribly faulty logic. You can't compare the income disparity between lower and middle class to the income disparity between middle class and upper class.

Not at all. I think if people made their money they should be able to spend it any way they want without someone telling them they don't deserve it or need it.

It is typically haters and jealous people that have a problems with how others are living their lives.

Quote: (12-26-2013 04:28 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

Now, you are treading on the boarders of a form of ad hominem to suggest that someone cannot have input into these wealth distribution and taxation matters b/c he has NOT been in your exact same shoes.

I doubt that you are part of the group of filthy wealthy that I refer to, and frequently guys that struggle to build something, such as a business, are getting screwed by the same elite that are setting the various rules that cause regular and smaller business entities to be overly burdened and these elite want you to think that the "poor" are the problem. and they also want you to think that the blacks and the women are the problem. and the immigrants.. etc etc...

The truth is that the filthy wealthy have been engaged in this wealth redistribution towards the top since the 80 and continuing to date, through republicans and democrats. And, accordingly, people on the lower end are getting taxed too much and think the solution is to NOT tax.. which is the whole nontax experiment that we have been trying since the 80s, and trickle down does NOT work.

You can have input as long as you realize you are more successful than many and to those people it may be you who should be giving more or what they feel is fair.

No, I am not in the .01% but the things most people call for wouldn't hurt those people but impact the groups that I am part of.

Still, the fact that you think someone shouldn't deserve their own island is kind of a hater comment and I think many of these ideals are based on jealousy to a certain point.

Quote: (12-26-2013 04:29 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Quote: (12-26-2013 04:27 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

Quote: (12-26-2013 04:24 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Cmon Jay, I am sure there are a lot of things in your life you don't need or deserve. I think it is time you sell them and pay your fair share man.

Why do you get to tell people what they deserve or need when you sit back and probably watch your television, listen to your stereo, type forum posts on your laptop, drive a nice car, wear nice clothes, etc...

Horribly faulty logic. You can't compare the income disparity between lower and middle class to the income disparity between middle class and upper class.

Not at all. I think if people made their money they should be able to spend it any way they want without someone telling them they don't deserve it or need it.

It is typically haters and jealous people that have a problems with how others are living their lives.

This is NOT about me. I have NO problem with capitalism and I have NO problem with people being able to prosper from their ingenuity, skills and luck. Additionally, I was exaggerating a little about the Island b/c thee may be circumstances in which guys may deserve to buy an island. In sum, this is NOT about me or the GOVT or anybody decision what people can do or have with their money, but rather is about fair contributions being made by those who are profiting from the infrastructure.

I have NO pie in the sky expectations that capitalism is coming down soon or anything like that, but I would like to see movement towards the building of infrastructure and jobs in this country in order that guys can go out there and make opportunities for themselves, and those situations are NOT very readily available when our country moves more towards the likeness of a banana republic and there are such disparities and plundering of the public good.

Sorry, but MY ideas are NOT coming from hate or jealousy.... b/c over the years, I have invested pretty well for myself.

Quote: (12-26-2013 04:29 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Quote: (12-26-2013 04:27 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

Quote: (12-26-2013 04:24 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Cmon Jay, I am sure there are a lot of things in your life you don't need or deserve. I think it is time you sell them and pay your fair share man.

Why do you get to tell people what they deserve or need when you sit back and probably watch your television, listen to your stereo, type forum posts on your laptop, drive a nice car, wear nice clothes, etc...

Horribly faulty logic. You can't compare the income disparity between lower and middle class to the income disparity between middle class and upper class.

Not at all. I think if people made their money they should be able to spend it any way they want without someone telling them they don't deserve it or need it.

It is typically haters and jealous people that have a problems with how others are living their lives.

Well you didn't address my point about income disparity, so let's try this one:

Forget about America. Let's look at other countries that are run by wealthy and corrupt oligarchies. Do you think it's right that the average citizen in many countries on earth don't have access to clean water, indoor plumbing, safe neighborhoods, public schooling, and other basic living standards while the upper 1% dine in luxury, have a 12 car garage, servants, and live on gigantic estates with 15,000 sq. foot homes? Do you believe in any unfair income disparity whatsoever?

It's funny how guys here are so worried about income disparity for other people.

This reminds me of a time when I was in real estate before the bubble got crazy. I took over ownership of a house and gave the owner some walking cash.

I ended up discounting the second lien holder to pennies on the dollar and created over 70k in equity because of it.

The owners must have found out about my successful negotiations and called the cops on me. The cops were waiting for me when I got to the house.

I showed the cops my deed and told them what happened.

The one cop looks at me as he was leaving and says "Don't you think 70k is a little too much to make?"

Man, I was shocked him trying to tell me I shouldn't make that much money. Of course, they didn't see the amount of time I put into learning the foreclosure laws, the amount of time I put into sales, the amount of time I put into learning how to pick the right houses, the amount of time I put into learning how to sell banks on taking losses, etc...


I found this to be somewhat of a normal stance for most people. Especially those that just haven't been that successful.

I still find it weird since I always believe that the money is out there and all you need to do is go after it. There is plenty of cash if you really want it.

I bet many, on this forum, would be slapping my back for my hustle.

I just find it funny, in a way, because there are people on this forum that seem to be acting like the cop and homeowners when it comes to the more successful people paying their share.

They just disguise it with income disparity worries. They think other people should pay for most if not all of infrastructure that everyone uses. Like it was that infrastructure, in itself, that made them rich. Hell, if that is the case, why don't they just use the infrastructure and become rich themselves?

Instead of getting their own they would rather take from someone else because they don't think they deserve or need islands, boats, multiple cars, airplanes, or whatever.

Me? I say if they want to buy an island, buy a damn island. You did good and you should enjoy the hell out of it.

It's kind of strange since if you are doing well why the fuck do you care about what others are doing? I wouldn't expect all these bleeding hearts on a player forum. Some of you guys should get rich and start up charities for those that you worry about.

Quote: (12-26-2013 05:59 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

It's funny how guys here are so worried about income disparity for other people.

This reminds me of a time when I was in real estate before the bubble got crazy. I took over ownership of a house and gave the owner some walking cash.

I ended up discounting the second lien holder to pennies on the dollar and created over 70k in equity because of it.

The owners must have found out about my successful negotiations and called the cops on me. The cops were waiting for me when I got to the house.

I showed the cops my deed and told them what happened.

The one cop looks at me as he was leaving and says "Don't you think 70k is a little too much to make?"

Man, I was shocked him trying to tell me I shouldn't make that much money. Of course, they didn't see the amount of time I put into learning the foreclosure laws, the amount of time I put into sales, the amount of time I put into learning how to pick the right houses, the amount of time I put into learning how to sell banks on taking losses, etc...


I found this to be somewhat of a normal stance for most people. Especially those that just haven't been that successful.

I still find it weird since I always believe that the money is out there and all you need to do is go after it. There is plenty of cash if you really want it.

I bet many, on this forum, would be slapping my back for my hustle.

I just find it funny, in a way, because there are people on this forum that seem to be acting like the cop and homeowners when it comes to the more successful people paying their share.

They just disguise it with income disparity worries. They think other people should pay for most if not all of infrastructure that everyone uses. Like it was that infrastructure, in itself, made them rich. Hell, if that is the case, why don't they just use the infrastructure and become rich themselves?

Instead of getting their own they would rather take from someone else because they don't think they deserve or need islands, boats, multiple cars, airplanes, or whatever.

Me? I say if they want to buy an island, buy a damn island. You did good and you should enjoy the hell out of it.

It's kind of strange since if you are doing well why the fuck do you care about what others are doing? I wouldn't expect all these bleeding hearts on a player forum. Some of you guys should get rich and start up charities for those that you worry about.

WWT:

Your latest post diverts from the whole issue, and NONE of us in this thread has asserted that we want equality for ALL, which you seem to imply. And, NO ONE here in this thread has asserted to be against guys finding niches and hustling for their betterment etc etc.

The assertion that was originally made in this thread was that trickle down economics works that if you give to the rich that it will somehow magically trickle down, and in essence that if the well-to-do do NOT have to pay taxes, then that money that they are saved will trickle down to the masses and the creation of jobs etc etc.

My assertion was that trickle down does NOT work. The Dude's providing an example outside of the United States was to show extremes in which infrastructure will deteriorate when neglected. My assertion is that the United states has been progressing in the direction of neglect of infrastructure based upon its redistribution of wealth towards the rich - that has been taking place since the 80s.

Some of the guys, here, had been complaining about double taxation are missing the point that the wealthy leaching off of the regular people are causing regular people to have to bear more and of the burden of the failure of the rich to contribute. That burden of the rich failing to contribute is picked up by everybody else.

A lot of us are suffering, unless you happen to be amongst the .01%. I believe guys making below $200K a year are part of the 99% (and NOT part of the .01%), and likely, WWT, you are in that category of the 99% and likely below $200k per year (though of course I do NOT know your details, but I surmise that more than 99.9% of the guys participating in this forum are earning on average less than 200K per year over the past 5 years), even though apparently you may have "friends" that may be bordering on going above that 200k per year level.

So, in that regard, even though you are suggesting that some guys here in this thread are bleeding hearts towards the poor, I have trouble understanding why some guys, such as yourself, seem to be conducting arguments of "bleeding hearts" for the wealthy. As if the interests of giving everything to the wealthy (or NOT taxing them) is going to serve American society and infrastructure as a whole.

Personally, I deny being a bleeding heart for the poor or any advocate of equality.... but rather more concerned about social stability and promotion of the maintenance of an American middle class... rather than a banana republic. The American middle class is a dying breed and getting worse and worse and the standard of living of other countries are doing much better, even countries in which citizens pay way more in taxes.

NO matter what the system, gaming and hustling is separate b/c guys can find ways to make his niche and to hustle NO MATTER what the system.

Jay, you should stop assuming stuff. hah I already stated I am worried about what effects me.

If you're suffering, do something about it. You live in one of the greatest countries in the world. The opportunities are endless here and anyone from here should not complain about this type of stuff.

Why do you think anyone needs to serve society or you? No one owes you anything.

Quote: (12-26-2013 05:59 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

It's funny how guys here are so worried about income disparity for other people.

This reminds me of a time when I was in real estate before the bubble got crazy. I took over ownership of a house and gave the owner some walking cash.

I ended up discounting the second lien holder to pennies on the dollar and created over 70k in equity because of it.

The owners must have found out about my successful negotiations and called the cops on me. The cops were waiting for me when I got to the house.

I showed the cops my deed and told them what happened.

The one cop looks at me as he was leaving and says "Don't you think 70k is a little too much to make?"

Man, I was shocked him trying to tell me I shouldn't make that much money. Of course, they didn't see the amount of time I put into learning the foreclosure laws, the amount of time I put into sales, the amount of time I put into learning how to pick the right houses, the amount of time I put into learning how to sell banks on taking losses, etc...


I found this to be somewhat of a normal stance for most people. Especially those that just haven't been that successful.

I still find it weird since I always believe that the money is out there and all you need to do is go after it. There is plenty of cash if you really want it.

I bet many, on this forum, would be slapping my back for my hustle.

I just find it funny, in a way, because there are people on this forum that seem to be acting like the cop and homeowners when it comes to the more successful people paying their share.

They just disguise it with income disparity worries. They think other people should pay for most if not all of infrastructure that everyone uses. Like it was that infrastructure, in itself, that made them rich. Hell, if that is the case, why don't they just use the infrastructure and become rich themselves?

Instead of getting their own they would rather take from someone else because they don't think they deserve or need islands, boats, multiple cars, airplanes, or whatever.

Me? I say if they want to buy an island, buy a damn island. You did good and you should enjoy the hell out of it.

It's kind of strange since if you are doing well why the fuck do you care about what others are doing? I wouldn't expect all these bleeding hearts on a player forum. Some of you guys should get rich and start up charities for those that you worry about.

Instead of writing that longwinded, passive aggressive, insulting garbage you could have just said, "Nope, don't care about income disparity".

Quote: (12-26-2013 06:44 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

Instead of writing that longwinded, passive aggressive, insulting garbage you could have just said, "Nope, don't care about income disparity".

Sensitive?

I'll let you worry about everyone else and take care of my own. You have to wonder what life would be like if everyone would worry about taking care of themselves and not wait for someone else to save them.

Hell, the more they take care of themselves, the more people would want to help them. I always enjoy helping someone but don't want to do it for them.

I don't live in other countries so there is no reason for me to discuss it.

Quote: (12-26-2013 06:23 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Jay, you should stop assuming stuff. hah I already stated I am worried about what effects me.

If I assumed anything incorrectly, I apologize. I tried to outline and describe any assumptions that i was making. I am trying to stick to the topic of trickle down economics that was mentioned, and I am NOT trying to get into any of your details - b/c I do NOT really know your details. If you happen to be better off than I believe then good for you - that would likely be besides the point (but if it is a factor, then pray tell).

Quote: (12-26-2013 06:23 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

If you're suffering, do something about it. You live in one of the greatest countries in the world. The opportunities are endless here and anyone from here should not complain about this type of stuff.

There you go again - attempting to make this about me. Again, I am NOT suffering, and I do NOT deny that there are many opportunities for guys. That is apart from my point about trickle down does NOT work and we, as a society, need to imagine investing as the solution - NOT giving additional and undeserved breaks to the wealthy - who have only been abusing their breaks for many years, including the recent capital strike that has been occurring since about 2007 or 2008-ish (a capital strike is failure and refusal to invest in america, to give out loans to small businesses to give out loans to home owners).

Quote: (12-26-2013 06:23 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Why do you think anyone needs to serve society or you? No one owes you anything.

We all give or take in various ways, and I am NOT claiming to be owed anything. I have had good luck and bad luck with my various ventures in life, and I am even willing to put up with double taxation here and there, if I cannot figure out any way to get out of it. I attempt to muster my resources to maximize my benefits, but again, my various claims in this thread is NOT about me.... and I do NOT feel that I am owed anything.

Contrarily, you, WWT (NO hating) seem to believe that you are owed less taxes, but if you work for finding various niches, you can find some tax loopholes, no? I have NO problem with that, but I do have problems if guys argue conclusively that somehow trickle down works, they do NOT provide any evidence of such (beyond bare assertions) when the evidence since the 80s seems clearly to be to the contrary.

Quote: (12-26-2013 06:50 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Sensitive?

I'll let you worry about everyone else and take care of my own. You have to wonder what life would be like if everyone would worry about taking care of themselves and not wait for someone else to save them.

So very sensitive. The feels!

Noone ever discussed worrying about anything. My original question to you was posed as follows:

Quote:Quote:

Do you think it's right...

I asked you a question about your ethics but your soapbox response just dances around some pretty condescending assumptions. Regardless, forget about it and enjoy the rest of your day.