I like travelling, and twice now I've become fully involved living in a seperate culture. I grew up in Canada, but have spent 2 two year hithces, first in Mexican culture, now in Indonesian. Both times it started off tolerable, I would tell people I enjoyed it, but honestly I think I was just being agreeable and trying to give it a fair shot. As the months pass, both times I found myself getting more and more and more annoyed. The language is isolating, I find the people pushy I think from growing up with poverty mindset means they will try and secure litle advantages over each other at the others expense, ie being very pushy at luggage carosel in an airport, because there is limited space. If everyone just took a step back it would be fine, but no, it's just a flat out competition to try and screw others out of space so that they can secure theirs. Everyone trying for a win-lose scenario that ultimately makes everyone worse off. I find the hygiene levels non-existent, and the lack of education which is hand in hand the level of religion also annoying. Having to deal with being woken up every day at 4am when a mosque kicks off, or a Mexican telling me I'm bad for eating meat on Friday, while he snorts coke and cheats on his wife with a 14 yo hooker.

Anyway the point of this post isn't to complain about other cultures, rather inquire if anyone else has made the move to a different culture, loved it, jumped in with both feet, and never looked back? If you look in the west, all immigrants tend to stick to their own (china towns, little koreas etc). Honestly I think what I'm experiencing is just human nature, but I am curious how common it is for people to make the full leap to a different culture.

I was only there for 10 days so maybe this isn't the answer you're looking for, but I've never felt more at home, U.S. included, than I did in Italy.

Maybe it was just the town I was staying in, but I've never been more comfortable or happy. I spoke the most rudimentary basic Italian and it's all I needed. I saw a lifestyle that revolves around family, food, friends, and enjoying life, even in the midst of poverty. They might be financially broke, but the lifestyle is downright luxurious by U.S. standards.

The air was clean, water was warm, food was delicious, people were friendly without being fake. Not only was the food great but I noticed my digestion had never felt so good. The people know how to drive and they speed like lunatics. Great nightlife, relaxed attitudes towards drinking and partying. People of all ages out until 4AM, from little kids to grandparents (I realize this is most of Europe)

Didn't have a great time with the women, but women aren't everything.

My biggest problem with Italy, Tuscany in particular, is that I was TOO comfortable there.

Quote: (08-27-2013 05:03 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

I was only there for 10 days so maybe this isn't the answer you're looking for, but I've never felt more at home, U.S. included, than I did in Italy.

Maybe it was just the town I was staying in, but I've never been more comfortable or happy. I spoke the most rudimentary basic Italian and it's all I needed. I saw a lifestyle that revolves around family, food, friends, and enjoying life, even in the midst of poverty. They might be financially broke, but the lifestyle is downright luxurious by U.S. standards.

The air was clean, water was warm, food was delicious, people were friendly without being fake. Not only was the food great but I noticed my digestion had never felt so good. The people know how to drive and they speed like lunatics. Great nightlife, relaxed attitudes towards drinking and partying. People of all ages out until 4AM, from little kids to grandparents (I realize this is most of Europe)

Didn't have a great time with the women, but women aren't everything.

My biggest problem with Italy, Tuscany in particular, is that I was TOO comfortable there.

This is a great description, but there's don't you think it's extremely difficult to extrapolate from 10 days? For instance, family may be important, but I'm guessing you didn't have family there. So that might leave you feeling left out after two years there when you are always an outsider to those wonderfully tight knit families.

Quote: (08-27-2013 04:54 PM)Seadog Wrote:  

........being very pushy at luggage carosel in an airport, because there is limited space. If everyone just took a step back it would be fine, but no, it's just a flat out competition to try and screw others out of space so that they can secure theirs. Everyone trying for a win-lose scenario ......

I am becoming more and more convinced that poor shithole countries are poor shitholes because the people simply can't (too dumb) or won't (too short sighted) embrace cooperation.

Look at Japan, they have no fucking oil, no iron ore, and they came from a bombed out cinder to 40 years later building the best cars in the world and shipping them 4000 miles to the USA.

Look at Mexico, they have their own oil, they are near the US which has tons of iron ore, and what do they end up doing? Blowing each other away in endless narco-wars.

The problem is every silver lining has a cloud, and in the wealthy countries the wealth produces unpleasant side effects like uppity women who forget how to nurture and weird market anomalies in the food marketing system that end up reinforcing Whaleism.

I tried to move to Ukraine, but I found the pervasive mistrust and lack of initiative, as well as sneaky, cowardly bullying, repulsive. The weird thing as you allude to is that people everywhere are used to their own country, it's so ingrained most of them think it's the best way.

So Ukrainians think Americans are naive to trust others, meanwhile Americans are earning something like 5 times they hourly wage Ukes are.

I too like cultures founded on mutual trust and cooperation.

It's a funny analogy, but I think airport carousels offer a lot of parallels to society. Everyone competing for a limited resource, and there will be winners and losers. You can fight it out or cooperate. When I was in Japan they had a line about 5 ft back around it, saying please stay behind the line and give room until you see your bag. Everyone does, and when your bag comes, you jump ahead and grab it with no problems. I loved Japan and how it worked.

And no, I don't think you can really get a feel in 10 days. Exactly what thedude said. I could speak basic Spanish and Indonesian, enough to get by, and basic English is common enough, but just things like sitting around a dinner table, 10 people speaking fast, conversational slang, telling jokes, it's impossible to keep up, and I think would take a decade to get your language to that level. Whenever they speak to you in english it feels like they're pitying you for being left out. If your goal is to have a job interview style conversation "ie what religion are your parents" ok, if you want to carry on and banter and actually enjoy the back and forth, completely different. In both cases it started off fine living there, and it was just death by a thousand little annoyances, I really don't think you can appreciate it if you're there for less than a year.

Also just cultural quirks. In poorer places you see a lot more of what is almost like India's Caste system. People avoiding the sun because you are judged by how dark you are. Guys growing finger nails an inch long because it means they don't work in the field. I think its stupid, but most people here don't, and people do judge others on that stuff. Does that mean they're wrong or I am?

Quote: (08-27-2013 06:59 PM)Seadog Wrote:  

Also just cultural quirks. In poorer places you see a lot more of what is almost like India's Caste system. People avoiding the sun because you are judged by how dark you are. Guys growing finger nails an inch long because it means they don't work in the field. I think its stupid, but most people here don't, and people do judge others on that stuff. Does that mean they're wrong or I am?

A few more examples:

People who drink whiskey because beer is for poor people

If you say an extra syllable, you're automatically of a lower class.

Hearing rants about "american privilege"

Hearing rants about why you're causing evil in this world.

If you don't drive a car, you're poor.

I'm two years into my stint in Brazil and I can't say that I've "fully embraced the new culture and love it", but I haven't grown tired enough of the annoyances to give up on it either. A lot of shit does still get on my nerves though:

- Why the hell are the checkout lines so slow at the grocery store?
- Why is my ID so fucking giant that I can't put it in my wallet?
- Why does everyone have to drive like an asshole?
- How is it that there are 6 people behind the counter at the padaria, everyone of them 'working' but not one client being served?
- Why am I still visiting the Minesterio de Trabalho or Policia Federal every month to fill out / pick up / drop off documents related to my residency?

On the bright side Brazil is not that different from the US in a lot of respects and blending in (after some time) is not that difficult. I feel if I lived in Asia no matter how long I was there I'd always be looked at and treated as a foreigner whereas here that is not the case.

Tricky question - the experience of living abroad has been a series of up and down waves for me. Here's how my timeframe looks, and why it's difficult to evaluate a country based on a brief visit:

0-3 months - Initial euphoria of being in a new culture; highly positive and rewarding; very difficult to view any country in a negative light
3-6 months - The euphoria fades, and you're smacked with every day realities; you begin nitpicking the finer details of the host country (e.g. lines while shopping, personality differences, bureaucracy, work culture)
6-9 months - You learn to adopt the values of the host country and usually find them to be superior to your homeland. Questioning your motives begins.
9-12 months - You begin missing the positive qualities of home, and question your identity/values as a result of the confusion

With this in mind, I've given up on trying to fairly evaluate a country I visit unless I spend at least 1 year there. My ROK post on Germany, for example, is overly negative because I spent so much time there, the initial euphoria wore off, and I was left dealing with the nuances of every day life. Fantastic country if you're in the first stage (e.g. most students there for a semester or tourists) but the negative realities of living there are obscured by the initial euphoria.

In response to the OP, I'd have to say England. It has all the cultural/historic attractions of other European countries, but it feels one step closer to home. Most alpha country in Europe, the dudes throw down, the girls are easy, and I don't feel hated as an American. Girls in clubs say "hey, if you're looking for someone to take home later, come find me." You can forget that in Germany. As a veteran, the culture is more accepting of my experiences and doesn't judge me by it.

Most of your issues seem to be with developing, collectivist countries. Why don't you try somewhere more developed and individualist? Plenty of options in Europe, Australia, Canada, maybe even Capetown in South Africa, etc. And if you really want to get basic-fluent in a language like Spanish, French, German etc, it's possible with an earnest, committed effort - doesn't need to take years. Plenty of people in Europe make life/career changes, up and move to a new country in the continent, and integrate within a year or two.

Most western expats in developing, collectivist countries experience the same issues you have. Of course it's very difficult to deeply integrate into Indonesian or Indian society... the issues you experience would be most westerner's natural reactions to living long-term in those places. Try somewhere that's a better fit maybe?

Well perhaps its the issues with backwards developing countries, but the point of this post wasn't to bitch about the nuances of living with poor people. More just that I'm curious how common it is for people to not be bothered by all these things, and just instead absolutely love it, because they are out there.

For instance, here I find people's hygiene/bathroom habits repulsive. Not using toilet paper, hacking and spitting 50 times over 10 minutes, enough to wake me up a room away, spraying water all over the bathroom so that everything from the toilet to the walls to the door handle is wet, and using your hand to take water from a urinal to wash your dick, and sticking your head out a car window, closing one nostril, and blowing snot all over the place.

It was annoying to the point I actually researched it online, and came across some blogs of westerners who full on embraced this stuff. Saying how much better and natural it was not to use toilet paper, and how just chucking garbage out your window on the ground is a better system because it keeps the house/car clean not accumulating garbage there. I'm honestly curious how common those sorts of conversions are.

Quote: (08-28-2013 08:06 PM)Seadog Wrote:  

Saying how much better and natural it was not to use toilet paper

After living in India and Argentina, I've come to appreciate a water hose/bidet. Toilet paper alone is insufficient.

I could give you a long list of aspects of Indian life that I am not converted on, but I won't right a book here. I think with time, developing countries will adopt western ways once they can afford them, and only if they make sense. In India, you are starting to see bathrooms with both toilet paper -AND- the water hose. I dont think they'll ever lose the water hose as it's actually better (especially if you eat spicy food).

I watched a real-time documentary this past week that provided the opposite perspective: "The Lost Boys of Sudan," about the male orphans of war-torn Sudan (high school and college age) who come to the U.S. as refugees.

They were sleeping on dirt floors in huts and now have cars, apartments, beds, and sofas. Much to my surprise, many of them absolutely HATE the lifestyle in the U.S., because they are so busy attending school or going to work.

Their previous lives involved lazing around all day and being social with their friends. Sudan is a very social society. (I have noticed the same thing with the local Somali population, hanging out in the streets and ethnic coffee shops).

Now they are busy working to pay for all the possessions that they never previously owned -- and are not too happy about it. Very interesting.

Quote: (08-28-2013 11:10 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

I watched a real-time documentary this past week that provided the opposite perspective: "The Lost Boys of Sudan," about the male orphans of war-torn Sudan (high school and college age) who come to the U.S. as refugees.

They were sleeping on dirt floors in huts and now have cars, apartments, beds, and sofas. Much to my surprise, many of them absolutely HATE the lifestyle in the U.S., because they are so busy attending school or going to work.

Their previous lives involved lazing around all day and being social with their friends. Sudan is a very social society. (I have noticed the same thing with the local Somali population, hanging out in the streets and ethnic coffee shops).

Now they are busy working to pay for all the possessions that they never previously owned -- and are not too happy about it. Very interesting.

Did they end up going back to Sudan?

Quote: (08-29-2013 08:41 AM)luggage Wrote:  

Quote: (08-28-2013 11:10 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

I watched a real-time documentary this past week that provided the opposite perspective: "The Lost Boys of Sudan," about the male orphans of war-torn Sudan (high school and college age) who come to the U.S. as refugees.

They were sleeping on dirt floors in huts and now have cars, apartments, beds, and sofas. Much to my surprise, many of them absolutely HATE the lifestyle in the U.S., because they are so busy attending school or going to work.

Their previous lives involved lazing around all day and being social with their friends. Sudan is a very social society. (I have noticed the same thing with the local Somali population, hanging out in the streets and ethnic coffee shops).

Now they are busy working to pay for all the possessions that they never previously owned -- and are not too happy about it. Very interesting.

Did they end up going back to Sudan?

Some of them are trying to go back, considering most are now of college-age and poor. They're not going back to stay but rather to visit, know their families and heritage, and help their communities.

Story of Dallas boy heading to Sudan. Enrolled in community college, working in target, being helped by a local church.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community...o-1524.ece

Story of the guys return from Sudan.
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community...k-home.ece

Quote: (08-29-2013 08:41 AM)luggage Wrote:  

Quote: (08-28-2013 11:10 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

I watched a real-time documentary this past week that provided the opposite perspective: "The Lost Boys of Sudan," about the male orphans of war-torn Sudan (high school and college age) who come to the U.S. as refugees.

They were sleeping on dirt floors in huts and now have cars, apartments, beds, and sofas. Much to my surprise, many of them absolutely HATE the lifestyle in the U.S., because they are so busy attending school or going to work.

Their previous lives involved lazing around all day and being social with their friends. Sudan is a very social society. (I have noticed the same thing with the local Somali population, hanging out in the streets and ethnic coffee shops).

Now they are busy working to pay for all the possessions that they never previously owned -- and are not too happy about it. Very interesting.

Did they end up going back to Sudan?

No. No work. No security. Savages (i.e., Muslims) hunting and killing everyone. (The same thing is now happening to Coptic Christians in Egypt.)

Some of those fleeing orphans were literally ripped apart and eaten by lions as they ran for their lives from the Muslims.

If you want to see an excellent movie about the issue, based on a true story, watch "Machine Gun Preacher."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eddnloOFjwY

It seems that nearly all places have a glow that welcomes you in, everything is fresh and interesting for about two or three weeks, then after two to three months or so you get somewhat fed up and more realistic with the detractors of the location.

If you want to maximize this phenomenon, go to an industrialized foreign country with twice as much money as you think you need, and go for no longer than two weeks (three if you're covering a lot of ground). That way you won't stay there long enough for the place to become intolerable and you'll guarantee that you're enjoying yourself enough with enough money for potential emergencies.

Didn't read much of the thread but it looks like Blick Mang has this nailed.

If you want a low-pressure introduction to Asia, you can try living in Hawaii for a while. Western sanitation and you have moderated versions of most major Asian cultures there-- Chinese, Filipino, Japanese, Pacific Islanders. it's the most racially diverse place I've been, and there's a pretty good matter-of-fact acceptance of the cultural differences. There's some low-key resentment from the Native Hawaiians in some places, the place was only taken over from them about 110 years ago, but most people are mixed.

I went to grad school there for three years and had a Filipina girlfriend, I feel they have a lot of liking and respect for American culture and guys.

Also its just as luxuriant as its rep-- at night you smell flowers on the warm breeze, and I've gone surfing on New Year's day for hours and didn't even have to wear a wet suit the water's so warm. I did stay away from the west? coast which is sort of the ghetto of pissed off Hawaiians.

I'm not too fond of my own culture, so I think I could do it easily. The most I've spent in a single country abroad was half a year, though, not enough time to be disillusioned by anything.

Quote: (08-29-2013 10:32 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

Quote: (08-29-2013 08:41 AM)luggage Wrote:  

Quote: (08-28-2013 11:10 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

I watched a real-time documentary this past week that provided the opposite perspective: "The Lost Boys of Sudan," about the male orphans of war-torn Sudan (high school and college age) who come to the U.S. as refugees.

They were sleeping on dirt floors in huts and now have cars, apartments, beds, and sofas. Much to my surprise, many of them absolutely HATE the lifestyle in the U.S., because they are so busy attending school or going to work.

Their previous lives involved lazing around all day and being social with their friends. Sudan is a very social society. (I have noticed the same thing with the local Somali population, hanging out in the streets and ethnic coffee shops).

Now they are busy working to pay for all the possessions that they never previously owned -- and are not too happy about it. Very interesting.

Did they end up going back to Sudan?

No. No work. No security. Savages (i.e., Muslims) hunting and killing everyone. (The same thing is now happening to Coptic Christians in Egypt.)

Some of those fleeing orphans were literally ripped apart and eaten by lions as they ran for their lives from the Muslims.

If you want to see an excellent movie about the issue, based on a true story, watch "Machine Gun Preacher."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eddnloOFjwY

Funny, last time I checked they have their own oil-rich country. They're free to go back if they don't enjoy the benefits of the U.S. It will be better.

Quote: (08-30-2013 04:59 PM)luggage Wrote:  

Funny, last time I checked they have their own oil-rich country. They're free to go back if they don't enjoy the benefits of the U.S. It will be better.

Oil wealth rarely, if ever, trickles down.

Quote: (08-30-2013 05:25 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

Quote: (08-30-2013 04:59 PM)luggage Wrote:  

Funny, last time I checked they have their own oil-rich country. They're free to go back if they don't enjoy the benefits of the U.S. It will be better.

Oil wealth rarely, if ever, trickles down.

Yeah, I have friends that have worked in S. Sudan, and it's corrupt as hell.

The creation of that country was not just about humanitarianism - there were ulterior motives by western powers, surprise, surprise.

As far as fully embracing a new culture, I had a wonderful time in my early 20s in Andalucia and Madrid studying Spanish and hanging out in Flamenco cafes. This was not too long after Franco died, and Spain was blooming with freedom then. They called it "La Movida."

Quote: (08-30-2013 11:59 PM)Sp5 Wrote:  

Quote: (08-30-2013 05:25 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

Quote: (08-30-2013 04:59 PM)luggage Wrote:  

Funny, last time I checked they have their own oil-rich country. They're free to go back if they don't enjoy the benefits of the U.S. It will be better.

Oil wealth rarely, if ever, trickles down.

Yeah, I have friends that have worked in S. Sudan, and it's corrupt as hell.

The creation of that country was not just about humanitarianism - there were ulterior motives by western powers, surprise, surprise.

As far as fully embracing a new culture, I had a wonderful time in my early 20s in Andalucia and Madrid studying Spanish and hanging out in Flamenco cafes. This was not too long after Franco died, and Spain was blooming with freedom then. They called it "La Movida."

Thing is, those "Savages" as Tail Gunner put them are probably more Alpha than himself.

Generalizations and assumptions are pretty beta.

I preferred Colombian culture to American culture.

I didn't 100% love it and have no problems with it. But I definitely thought people treated other people more like human beings whereas in America I find human interaction degrading and soul crushing.

Of course Colombia is highly Americanized so it's more just different inter-personal attitudes that I appreciated.

And I very quickly came to not mind being late everywhere and not expecting people to be on time.

Quote: (08-31-2013 06:45 AM)luggage Wrote:  

Quote: (08-30-2013 11:59 PM)Sp5 Wrote:  

Quote: (08-30-2013 05:25 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

Quote: (08-30-2013 04:59 PM)luggage Wrote:  

Funny, last time I checked they have their own oil-rich country. They're free to go back if they don't enjoy the benefits of the U.S. It will be better.

Oil wealth rarely, if ever, trickles down.

Yeah, I have friends that have worked in S. Sudan, and it's corrupt as hell.

The creation of that country was not just about humanitarianism - there were ulterior motives by western powers, surprise, surprise.

As far as fully embracing a new culture, I had a wonderful time in my early 20s in Andalucia and Madrid studying Spanish and hanging out in Flamenco cafes. This was not too long after Franco died, and Spain was blooming with freedom then. They called it "La Movida."

Thing is, those "Savages" as Tail Gunner put them are probably more Alpha than himself.

Generalizations and assumptions are pretty beta.

Men who travel in armed packs and randomly wipe out entire villages of people, rape women, and sell the children (who they don't kill) into slavery. Why? Simply because their victims were born into a different religion. Yea, real alpha behavior.

Respectfully, educate yourself. Watch "The Lost Boys of Sudan" and "Machine Gun Preacher" and then return and make educated comments.