Quote: (01-07-2013 03:13 PM)Rex Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2013 02:57 PM)lush1 Wrote:  

I hate the conformist scandinavian attitude and love the American 'can do' spirit. In Britain people are so cynical and negative I find the American attitude to be very refreshing.

What you call cynicism others would call a healthy dose of realism.

Well as they say 'an optimist is actually a pessimist who is not in possession of all the facts'

Didn't expect this at all but...

I'm not saying Scandinavians have it wrong at all. I love social democracy as all, but for some reason I look around (most recently I was in Turku) and all I see is blank stares and lifeless faces. It bothers me. Humans were not made to be fully equal, I can see it drains a persons soul thus reverting them to alcoholism (especially in Finland).

Quote: (01-07-2013 04:44 PM)Aer Wrote:  

Didn't expect this at all but...

I'm not saying Scandinavians have it wrong at all. I love social democracy as all, but for some reason I look around (most recently I was in Turku) and all I see is blank stares and lifeless faces..

I get a similar feeling when I'm in Stockholm

Quote: (01-07-2013 03:36 PM)Rex Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2013 03:29 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

COP

lol i wonder what video you post for teachers.

Quote: (01-07-2013 10:40 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Counterpoint.

Do you believe in the American dream? Is it alive today? Because many people will tell you on here that it is merely smokes and mirrors to keep the American people as happy consumers.

With that said. I've had the luxury of living and working both in Scandinavia and the US. As with most things there are merits and flaws with both nation's systems. You're stepping into the same pitfall that many other Americans are when outside The States and crediting an entire populace with one peronality/character set. I'm Scandinavian and don't recognize me or many of my peers in your description.

I can tell you right away that if what you describe about yourself is true then you are far more motivated than the average American. For example, at my company's site in the US they have 3 people doing the job that I manage alone over here. I don't knlw about their work ethic but I can't imagine what they do with all their work hours.

At the same time you are in College where everybody is trying so hard to be unique that they all wind up being exactly the same.

Stagnation and mediocrity... Is that what you see? Because if we looked at a higher level and compared QoL/literacy/knowledge/crime rates etc between the nation's mentioned then I know what country will end up truly looking stagnant and mediocre. Not dick wagging here, but rather trying to illustrate that what you're trying to grasp is not about being Scandinavian or American or whatever.

Maybe it's the power of the red pill?
Or maybe it's simply you?

I believe in the American Dream because I see it all the time. I see it with migrant laborers. Anthony Bourdain said it best, perhaps, "No-one understands the American Dream better than a non-American."

I've got guys working for me who are used to making $15 a day, and that's a GOOD job, in their home country, be it Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, or the Phillipines. I pay them $9-$13 an hour. It's no fortune, but these cats all live 3, 4, 5 guys per apartment, sock it all away and send half of it home. Occasionally, every once in a while, one of them charges through the ranks and makes something of himself. It's rare, but it happens. There are chefs in this city that started out as dishwashers, and over the course of 10+ years, worked up to prep cook, line cook, sous chef, and finally executive chef making $70K+ a year with benefits. That's the American dream right there, and it doesn't exist in most other countries.

You can talk about how migrant labor undermines our economic system by taking away jobs from national citizens, but I'll tell you this: in the 12-13 years I've been working in kitchens, out of the hundreds of kitchen employees I've worked with, I've seen TWO white dishwashers, and both these knuckleheads were one step out of prison. I don't get white kids knocking on my door for a job very often, and when I do, they're expecting a wage that no company could afford to pay them.

You can argue that low class jobs like these only exist to serve the rich. And, you'd be right, but it's always been that way in modern human civilization. The fact remains: despite the current fucked up economic situation we're in, immigrants can still come here and live a much, MUCH higher quality of life than in their home country. That reflects the nature of this country historically (Irish, Italians, Chinese) and currently.

There are Mexicans that come here to work as housekeepers, and three years later they're selling tacos from a street truck that they own. They OWN THEIR OWN BUSINESS, which, even if they did back home, would barely earn enough to keep a roof over their head. That, to me, is the American Dream. It's a rare scenario that a minority acheive, and it's only for those with an insane amount of determination and drive, but it still happens.

Quote: (01-07-2013 04:44 PM)Aer Wrote:  

I'm not saying Scandinavians have it wrong at all. I love social democracy as all, but for some reason I look around (most recently I was in Turku) and all I see is blank stares and lifeless faces. It bothers me. Humans were not made to be fully equal, I can see it drains a persons soul thus reverting them to alcoholism (especially in Finland).

You've gone from being philosophical to being merely anecdotal now.
You're trying to connect social equality to "lifelessness" to (and this is where you're getting really poetical) "soul drainage "to alcoholism. I seriously hope you're not talking about this openly where you're at.

Alcoholism is a cultural curse of the slavic races, also very prevalent in Russia where social equality is a gag told in the Kremlin. No connection whatsoever. While tragic, when you also factor in the country's low rates in illegal drug use it is clear that alcoholism is the sole major vice and the nation still comes out ahead in international comparisons.

Quote: (01-07-2013 05:51 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2013 04:44 PM)Aer Wrote:  

I'm not saying Scandinavians have it wrong at all. I love social democracy as all, but for some reason I look around (most recently I was in Turku) and all I see is blank stares and lifeless faces. It bothers me. Humans were not made to be fully equal, I can see it drains a persons soul thus reverting them to alcoholism (especially in Finland).

You've gone from being philosophical to being merely anecdotal now.
You're trying to connect social equality to "lifelessness" to (and this is where you're getting really poetical) "soul drainage "to alcoholism. I seriously hope you're not talking about this openly where you're at.

Alcoholism is a cultural curse of the slavic races, also very prevalent in Russia where social equality is a gag told in the Kremlin. No connection whatsoever. While tragic, when you also factor in the country's low rates in illegal drug use it is clear that alcoholism is the sole major vice and the nation still comes out ahead in international comparisons.

I'm not at all going after your country at all, I'm just saying it's very foreign to me. I'd say in America people only tend to drink on the weekends (Friday and Saturday), yet here everyone seems to drink more, not saying it's raw alcoholism but alcohol is much more prevalent (thus being promoted in moderation by legislation).

Lesson learned, don't discuss governmental systems or the mindset here, or you're asking for trouble.

Quote: (01-08-2013 12:41 AM)Aer Wrote:  

Lesson learned, don't discuss governmental systems or the mindset here without the data to back up your hypothesis, or you're asking for trouble.

Fixed that for you.

Aer's post is sure to disturb some people and raise criticisms. Yes, it's easy to criticize the OP here applying some of the most common critical thinking tools we learn (e.g. "that's generalization," "you American don't know what you're talking about, esp. regarding other cultures"), and they would be right. A lot of good points have been raised already, and I agree with a lot of them (and won't regurgitate here now).
However, I also see that there is some truth in what he is saying (and of course not everything he suggests or implies is true).

Regarding Chicks & Innovation (and i assume we're mostly interested in those two, ultimately combining both and leading to innovation in swooping chicks - defying traditional ways for men to attain the same [rear] end (which was bullshit and a rip-off for men, etc).

I was in Finland, Sweden, and Denmark this summer. By no means i was raised there but I also grew up in a few other different countries. Scandinavia really is an innovative place and is more advanced than America in many ways.
Now then, here's something to think about: what leads to innovation? Is it the American spirit of capitalism and "greed is good" mentality that makes people want to achieve more? Well, it's not that simple and it's not the sole mindset that in reality leads people to innovate.
The American "let's make more money" or "i want to be better than this other guy" attitude only goes so far when it comes to true innovation. When people's main goal in life is to attain more material achievements, it distracts them from really making something new and interesting. True risk-takers are often those who don't give a damn about "making it" and (so that they can) stepping above others and flaunting their success. Steve Jobs (ok, i'd love to fuck this guy up for some of the things he did but he already is now) would still be an example when it comes to innovation: after his initial success with computers in the 80's, he says, basically, "i realized i didn't have to work for money any more" and that kind of mindset is one example of things that are sorely missing in the general American populace. If you think Scandinavians are lazy because of welfare and taxes etc, you're in for some surprise if you visit the start-up scene in Helsinki-Espoo area.

Regarding the lifeless faces there, I think it's the weather and the depression... but what do i know. and yes a lot of them do seem quite stiff and restrained, until you start a chat with them and get to know each other.


The most important thing Aer said, however, is (for me at least)
It really pays to have dat American mindset when it comes to swooping girls in ANY foreign country. Really. When most of the local population DO have shyness and reservations about initiating a relationship with strangers, the American "can do" attitude does come across as refreshing and interesting. And I have to say, a lot of material innovation and innovative lifestyles (and innovations in "the game") benefited from that American mindset. Again, I have to give credit to American culture for innovations in game.

And in the end, isn't that what most of us are here for on rooshvforum?

Quote: (01-07-2013 01:27 PM)Rex Wrote:  

At one end of the scale, we have the Scandinavian societies, marked by low income equality. At the other end of the scale, we have USA and the UK, marked by extremely high levels of income equality.

Re-reading my post, realised I made a howler. I meant *inequality*. Revised:

At one end of the scale, we have the Scandinavian societies, marked by low income inequality. At the other end of the scale, we have USA and the UK, marked by extremely high levels of income inequality.

Quote: (01-08-2013 09:53 AM)Sakebomb Wrote:  

The most important thing Aer said, however, is (for me at least)
It really pays to have dat American mindset when it comes to swooping girls in ANY foreign country. Really. When most of the local population DO have shyness and reservations about initiating a relationship with strangers, the American "can do" attitude does come across as refreshing and interesting. And I have to say, a lot of material innovation and innovative lifestyles (and innovations in "the game") benefited from that American mindset. Again, I have to give credit to American culture for innovations in game.

And in the end, isn't that what most of us are here for on rooshvforum?

I realized i made a crucial mis-thinking on my part. While it helps to have that confident can-do attitude, it was wrong of me to assume that is an "American" thing to do. You can be a confident can-do alpha without subscribing to the American spirit. My mistake was that, minutes ago, i assumed the "can do" attitude is somehow inherently American - hence describing it as "American can-do attitude," "dat American mindset," etc.

One "can do" things without being that.

Game on.

Ummm Stockholm. Yawn yawn.

So many fluffy ideas in this thread.

I've lived in the UK and lived in the US. The differences in almost everything (mindset, attitude, desire) tend to be incremental and vary way more from individual to individual than nation to nation.

US and Western Europe are responsible for a huge portion of the innovation of the last century. Look at the numbers and you'll find success indicators are very similar.

Basically, take 100 people from each of the US, UK, Germany and Scandinavia. You'll find that the portion with the desire to succeed above average and the amount that actually achieve this to be very similar across each nation.

Honestly, I know of no other nationality that makes such sweeping generalisations about whole populations as Americans do based on their personal experiences with the minuscule amount of a nations people. I say that as a big fan of Americans on general. Good people, but prone to serious generalising.

Quote: (01-08-2013 08:35 PM)Jbk Wrote:  

I know of no other nationality that makes such sweeping generalisations about whole populations as Americans do based on their personal experiences with the minuscule amount of a nations people.

Sorry to spoil your clumsy sermonising, but isn't this a good example of what you're preaching against?

Not sure if the OP has been to Scandinavia? He appears to be in Finland at the moment.

If we are measuring materialist aspects by net results, consider the US national debt and external debt both exceed $16 trillion, whereas Norway (which is part of Scandinavia) has the highest per capita wealth in the world.

Quote: (01-09-2013 12:50 AM)Antipodean Wrote:  

Not sure if the OP has been to Scandinavia? He appears to be in Finland at the moment.

If we are measuring materialist aspects by net results, consider the US national debt and external debt both exceed $16 trillion, whereas Norway (which is part of Scandinavia) has the highest per capita wealth in the world.

What would their per capita wealth be if they were 300 million people with a sizable minority population.

Quote: (01-09-2013 02:30 AM)jammer Wrote:  

Quote: (01-09-2013 12:50 AM)Antipodean Wrote:  

Not sure if the OP has been to Scandinavia? He appears to be in Finland at the moment.

If we are measuring materialist aspects by net results, consider the US national debt and external debt both exceed $16 trillion, whereas Norway (which is part of Scandinavia) has the highest per capita wealth in the world.

What would their per capita wealth be if they were 300 million people with a sizable minority population.

Trying real hard to make a race thread of this aren't we? Keep it up and you won't be long in this place.

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the community and family units that are so predominant in Scandinavia. In terms of happiness, being part of a healthy community factors in as the most important part of being a happy person. Americans move around a lot. Family is usually out of state, and most people are living far away from where they grew up.

In Scandinavia family and friends are always close by. Some might find that hard to deal with, but it also keeps people honest. The general vibe of sitting at an outdoor long table as the sun hangs on past 10pm eating and drinking with a mix of family and friends of all ages is something that many Americans miss, but might not know it.

When I moved back from Sweden the "hustle" of America was thrown in my face and at first it was hard to get back into. I have always been proud of the starter mentality and motivation of the people here, but I also find myself missing the simple happiness of the people in Sweden as well.

Scandinavia has not always been successful, but they have always been strong willed and patient. When timing finally found its way there, they were more than ready for it and built a solid foundation for the future. If America found itself sitting on the type of wealth that Scandinavia found in the last half of the 20th century I would find it hard to believe that they would show the same restraint as Scandinavia did. Just look at Canada right now and just how fast we are plowing through the resources with no viable plan to take us into the next generations. Boom or Bust. Its sad, but culturally its how we tend to roll.

Quote: (01-09-2013 02:56 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Quote: (01-09-2013 02:30 AM)jammer Wrote:  

Quote: (01-09-2013 12:50 AM)Antipodean Wrote:  

Not sure if the OP has been to Scandinavia? He appears to be in Finland at the moment.

If we are measuring materialist aspects by net results, consider the US national debt and external debt both exceed $16 trillion, whereas Norway (which is part of Scandinavia) has the highest per capita wealth in the world.

What would their per capita wealth be if they were 300 million people with a sizable minority population.

Trying real hard to make a race thread of this aren't we? Keep it up and you won't be long in this place.

How is he trying to make it a race thread? What he said makes sense. Norway has 5 million people and not much diversity in terms of races, while the US has all different races, a high population number and their per capita wealth still above average.

Quote: (01-09-2013 07:29 AM)pitt Wrote:  

Quote: (01-09-2013 02:56 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Quote: (01-09-2013 02:30 AM)jammer Wrote:  

Quote: (01-09-2013 12:50 AM)Antipodean Wrote:  

Not sure if the OP has been to Scandinavia? He appears to be in Finland at the moment.

If we are measuring materialist aspects by net results, consider the US national debt and external debt both exceed $16 trillion, whereas Norway (which is part of Scandinavia) has the highest per capita wealth in the world.

What would their per capita wealth be if they were 300 million people with a sizable minority population.

Trying real hard to make a race thread of this aren't we? Keep it up and you won't be long in this place.

How is he trying to make it a race thread? What he said makes sense. Norway has 5 million people and not much diversity in terms of races, while the US has all different races, a high population number and their per capita wealth still above average.

You obviously missed the news early last year when a gunman killed 92 kids and the reasons behind it.

It's the internet... No sweeping generalization shall go unpunished.

I preffer an egalitarian society, understanding by egalitarian that the gap between the richest and poorest is not too big and most of the population stay in the golden mean. Can't understand people defending a model of society in which a 1% (no matter how talented they are or how big their enterpreneur spirit is) have all and the other 99% have little or nothing because that society is unsustainable and unliveable. By that I mean that the fact that you are the smartest guy in the room and can do something and earn a gazillion dollars, become huge and build up a monopoly in a short period of time doesn't mean that you should be allowed to do it if it's against the public interest (i.e. will fuck up the rest of the productive economy and people's lifes).

On the other hand is true that the wellfare state creates monsters by incentivating attitudes and behaviours that are as destructive as unrestrained greed: Women who are professional single mothers, professional unwell or who could work harder and do better and don't do just because if they'd lose social benefits. The problem is when thanks to the government you can live better not doing anythin than working. British members know well what I'm talking about, see and cry:

I think this has a lot to do about in what degree it's cultural accepted to share dreams.

If I went around telling people I'm gonna start the most successfully restaurant in the country or what ever, I would come off as bragging.

In us I would assume that would be more accepted.

A few years ago I read Norway was the country where most people went from lover class to upper class. And vice versa.

You're much more likely to rise up from the bottom if you're born in Scandinavia. Maybe it's because you have a shorter distance to rise. If you look at the curve you'll see that more equal societies have more social mobility.



Scandinavian countries produce plenty of great entrepreneurs. There's a bunch of Scandinavian self-made dollar billionaires alive today. You take more risks when you know that you have health insurance no matter what. Your kids will be looked after and go to a good university even if you go bankrupt. The downsides of taking big risks in the US are much bigger: no health insurance, live in the ghetto, your kids may be stuck in shitty public schools and have to forego college, etc.

The other side of the coin is that the upside is bounded in Scandinavia; the state takes a bigger cut of your success.

It's hard for Americans to relate to this because in the US many feel they don't get much for their tax dollars. That sucks if you live in California where the top rate is close to 60% for some.

In the US the best hospitals and universities are private; in Scandinavia they're public. So if you want the best in the US you're always paying twice -- eg. first for the shitty schools you'll never use via taxes, and then out of pocket to private schools. This causes resentment because you're subsidising a bunch of shit you feel has nothing to do with you. In Scandinavia everyone feels they're getting something for their tax money and governments are smart about making sure top earners don't get resentful by feeling left out.

I understand why people feel the Scandinavian system is oppressive. It's less individualist, maybe it kills ambition. But that's how societies with strong social cohesion work. The upside of strong social cohesion is more solidarity, lower crime rates, girls will go home with you ten minutes after meeting because there's more trust etc. It has benefits and drawbacks.

People focus on the drawbacks of the system they don't like instead of looking the complete package. You can't pick and choose the aspects you like and don't like. You can't have the benefits of social cohesion along with the benefits of individualism. There's a tradeoff and you have to choose.

It comes down to your core values and those are going to be different for different people.

For the most objective look at the best arrangement the veil of ignorance thought experiment is useful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance - which society would you rather be born into if you could randomly be born into any class with any level of innate ability?

Quote: (01-07-2013 04:44 PM)Aer Wrote:  

I'd say in America people only tend to drink on the weekends (Friday and Saturday), yet here everyone seems to drink more, not saying it's raw alcoholism but alcohol is much more prevalent (thus being promoted in moderation by legislation).

Actually the situation is quite the contrary to your statement. The Goverment of Finland has a monopoly on alcohol beverages over 4.7 % ABV. The advertising and promotion of such products if forbidden. Also in terms of total alcohol consumption, Finland is one of the most sober country in Europe.

That said, Finns usually consume a lot of alcohol when they start drinking...