Quote: (12-14-2012 03:29 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

Quote: (12-14-2012 02:24 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Bed n supper is only tourists and expats, granted there could be female korean or japanese tourists there.

1k for a glass of wine!? Wine in thailamd is ridiciously priced but 1k is beyond that.

Ridiculous to a lot of people, but certainly not uncommon on a restaurant menu in America (at a nice place)...

Don't get me wrong, I could pay the equivalent of 1k THB for a glass of Opus One in the US. In Thailand however the overall price ranges of other alcoholic drinks as well as the bad climate and culture for wine makes wine in general a bad choice.

@DVY
Hey man crazy story but I can imagine the whole thing going down just as you say. Well you live and you learn, it is good for everyone else new coming to Bangkok to hear these stories.

Level up your game and pick up normal girls at RCA and then you won't have any such problems.

@Asaxon, @DVY, and @RioNomad you guys keep the stories coming I keep checking this thread daily to be wildly entertained.

Quote: (12-15-2012 05:37 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Quote: (12-14-2012 03:29 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

Quote: (12-14-2012 02:24 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Bed n supper is only tourists and expats, granted there could be female korean or japanese tourists there.

1k for a glass of wine!? Wine in thailamd is ridiciously priced but 1k is beyond that.

Ridiculous to a lot of people, but certainly not uncommon on a restaurant menu in America (at a nice place)...

Don't get me wrong, I could pay the equivalent of 1k THB for a glass of Opus One in the US. In Thailand however the overall price ranges of other alcoholic drinks as well as the bad climate and culture for wine makes wine in general a bad choice.

I understand your point. The lack of good wines used to really bum me out there.

As an aside, I have heard, however, of an emerging wine scene there that's still pretty under the radar. Apparently, with all the french, italian, and german moving out there, they're taking advantage of a lot of the subclimates unique to Thailand. I even heard about this unique variety of grape they grow like cranberries, floating in the water.

Don't remember where I read all this but the assertion was that there are some wines coming out of Thailand that are gaining popularity in the world as they cannot be produced anywhere else.

At one time, I had a business idea of putting together a country tour that took you around to different wineries in thailand. Very niche market for the region but I think it could be a hit with travelers who love wine...

That said, I've yet to stumble across these "diamond in the rough" varieties myself (though I have to admit I didn't really try), so boots-on-the-ground research would be a must. Obviously, slightly sweet whites are most suited to the climate and food.

You guys should really move to new rooms after having a problem like that. You don't want to learn the hard way about the extremes Thai people will go to when they feel "wronged."

Update from the north: So I trained in Chaing Mai for a solid two weeks, it was really good but then I got sick with a cold and took a few days off. Well that few days turned into a ten day bender of drinking, eating shitty food, chasing women and not training. Racked up a couple more notches off TF but nothing to write home about.

During the time off I spent three days up in Pai, a small little town popular with back packers and hippies, its really nice up here; less polluted, easy to get around, very cheap and very scenic.

Anyway I relocated up here two days ago and will continue training, they have a couple of Muay Thai gyms up here. I just want to give it hard on the training for another two weeks before I head down to BKK for new years and hopefully meet up with some of you guys.

I'll drop a data sheet on Pai soon.

Started the night w grub at food land w the crew. Soi cowboy bar country road after for happen hour 150 baht pitchers. Then bacara for an bumping music and glass ceiling show. 20 piece chicken nuggets at McDonalds for quick snack. 7-11 to buy hard A. Pound it down and chop all girls in taxis rolling by. Proceed to beer street spots and chop the girls up driving by. One girl responds to my flirting and the three of us hop in her car bucket of vodka and lime in hand. She goes to q bar and all 4 of us get in. No cover! Don't know who she was but she got that place on lock. Crowd was mixed Thai and farang. Dance up to a group of 8 girls and start dancing. 2 cute, 6 busted. My cute one I later see is married aka ring on finger. Go upstairs and my approaches fail. Go downstairs and find a sexy petite thing who's my liking. We dance and grind for a bit. I buy a water and share it w her. Tell her I'm hungry, and grab her to street food. Street food is super expensive so I switch it to 7-11 food and milk. Bang. Really sweet girl. I even took her to lunch w me and asaxon. She sat quietly when we talked and was a real pleasure to have around. Pleasant and sweet. Ordered something reasonable on menu not the most expensive things on menu like the girls from the states. Fin. At airport now. Glad to be going back. This vacation makes me excited to start working again. Time to stack cash, gym and detox w healthy food and diet

Update: It has been slow for a few days now. The novelty of Bkk has worn off after three weeks. Days have started to become routines of seeing a girl, getting up in the afternoon, fighting crowds to get lunch, going to the pool. Today there was a group of 25 butch lesbians frolicking in the pool acting worse than any man ever could and asking me to take group pics. I jokingly asked them to flash me and the ugly ones all happily did...I am talking manly manly lesbos here. I never knew women could deteriorate this much... Their skin and breasts seemed like a wide blanket that the actual person vanished in.
I agree with DVY: time to go home, further my career, work out and scout for my next trip. I am thinking of Mexico or Africa.

The party had to end some time. Just curious, how old are you guys? have you guys look into settling down in Chiang Mai? maybe start some kind of business while living there on the cheap.

Not sure my career lends itself to distance work. I actually like what I do and have invested 7 years of post-secondary education to get where I am at. I have a fairly flexible schedule so my plan is to work hard, make money and save while going abroad 3 times a year or more. Settling in Thailand for good requires funds that I do not feel I have at 30 years of age. There are a lot of people in pattaya who retired too early and ended up dead (the pattaya flying club is famous as balcony jumps seem very common there )or had to go back home because they underestimated their expenses.

Quote: (12-16-2012 04:27 AM)Asaxon Wrote:  

Update: It has been slow for a few days now. The novelty of Bkk has worn off after three weeks. Days have started to become routines of seeing a girl, getting up in the afternoon, fighting crowds to get lunch, going to the pool. Today there was a group of 25 butch lesbians frolicking in the pool acting worse than any man ever could and asking me to take group pics. I jokingly asked them to flash me and the ugly ones all happily did...I am talking manly manly lesbos here. I never knew women could deteriorate this much... Their skin and breasts seemed like a wide blanket that the actual person vanished in.
I agree with DVY: time to go home, further my career, work out and scout for my next trip. I am thinking of Mexico or Africa.

I'm honestly surprised it took that long, I spent 5 days in Phuket and then was ready to go. As you guys alluded to, just the scams scams scams everywhere quickly put a downer on things for me. The fact that you can't stop at a restraunts and give a linguring glance without being hassled, then thye tell you whatever you want to hear to get you in, then if you go in it turns out it was all lies and shit you didn't ask for has been added to your bill and have to argue. Thais can go from being super friendly to super angry quickly, I found around the tourist areas the former attitude persisted only up to the point where they felt they had a chance of reliveing you of some money.

I honesstly don't think living there would be as nice as you seem to think, I talked to a few people who lived near Phuket, mostly middle aged guys with money who had a sad story and came out and took a wife. Honestly there where about as many coming as going. They generally never made much money if they had a business there, and talked about short-sightedness of locals, hassles with police, and how everythng was more expensive/more hassles/lower quality merely from them being western. Everyoner they dealt with thought they were there to to make *their* lives better off. Sort of an attitude of "I want to relive you of as much money as I can, and if you get fedup and leave there will be another along shortly".

Quote: (12-16-2012 07:55 AM)Seadog Wrote:  

Quote: (12-16-2012 04:27 AM)Asaxon Wrote:  

Update: It has been slow for a few days now. The novelty of Bkk has worn off after three weeks. Days have started to become routines of seeing a girl, getting up in the afternoon, fighting crowds to get lunch, going to the pool. Today there was a group of 25 butch lesbians frolicking in the pool acting worse than any man ever could and asking me to take group pics. I jokingly asked them to flash me and the ugly ones all happily did...I am talking manly manly lesbos here. I never knew women could deteriorate this much... Their skin and breasts seemed like a wide blanket that the actual person vanished in.
I agree with DVY: time to go home, further my career, work out and scout for my next trip. I am thinking of Mexico or Africa.

I'm honestly surprised it took that long, I spent 5 days in Phuket and then was ready to go. As you guys alluded to, just the scams scams scams everywhere quickly put a downer on things for me. The fact that you can't stop at a restraunts and give a linguring glance without being hassled, then thye tell you whatever you want to hear to get you in, then if you go in it turns out it was all lies and shit you didn't ask for has been added to your bill and have to argue. Thais can go from being super friendly to super angry quickly, I found around the tourist areas the former attitude persisted only up to the point where they felt they had a chance of reliveing you of some money.

I honesstly don't think living there would be as nice as you seem to think, I talked to a few people who lived near Phuket, mostly middle aged guys with money who had a sad story and came out and took a wife. Honestly there where about as many coming as going. They generally never made much money if they had a business there, and talked about short-sightedness of locals, hassles with police, and how everythng was more expensive/more hassles/lower quality merely from them being western. Everyoner they dealt with thought they were there to to make *their* lives better off. Sort of an attitude of "I want to relive you of as much money as I can, and if you get fedup and leave there will be another along shortly".

Nearly all of that is easily avoidable if you follow the advice of trey, Beyond Borders, DirectDanger, and others on this forum. I rarely encouter scams. Why? Because I'm not fucking around on lower sukhumvit or banging hookers on the reg. Many of Thailands faults are very easy to avoid, it's just that most people insist on fucking around with low class girls, in low class parts of town.

If someone went to the dirtiest street in New York, exclusively went to clubs frequented by hookers, and fucked hookers and drug addicts on a regular basis, they would say the same shit. The problem is, if they would just read the damn advice on RVF, they would have known that there are way better parts of NYC to hit up.

Some of this is true: sukhumvit definitely has institutionalized farang as prey for scammers, however, I also encountered scams and price issues at the airport, Silom, even out in the sticks. DVY and I got some good deals on stuff from medication to Xmas presents. Once the sellers stop smiling and insult you, you know you have a decent price. I prefer a western, transparent system though and do not want to live in a country where my whole life depends on bribing and ingratiating myself. For a trip this was interesting but I do not think Thailand and my personal values mesh. I find Thai culture very mellow but intellectually lazy. Even professionals seem profoundly incurious about the world. World war two, atomic power, even Asian philosophy and history seem alien to most Thais I met. They work, watch tv, eat and sleep it seems. This is purely subjective but very different from my experience with people in Brazil and E Europe who are often amazingly knowledgeable or at least have hobbies and goals beyond buying iPhones and sleeping.

@ rip nomad I have liked your posts but you are not correct. If you are accompanied by a Thai person you will avoid lots of these issues. You recent posts w Thai friends and fbuddies suggest that. I tried RCA and thong lo on weekdays, it was dead. If u only wish to go out weekends pros will be avoided.

Good god, I threw a fit yesterday at 7/11. Bought an ice cream and it was 23 baht. After I screamed at the guy he relented and gave me "discount" of 4 baht. Aka standard price.

I will say Chiang Mai was a lot better but some street foods would have 2 menus. 1 for Thai and 1 for farang

Quote: (12-16-2012 08:23 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

Nearly all of that is easily avoidable if you follow the advice of trey, Beyond Borders, DirectDanger, and others on this forum. I rarely encouter scams. Why? Because I'm not fucking around on lower sukhumvit or banging hookers on the reg. Many of Thailands faults are very easy to avoid, it's just that most people insist on fucking around with low class girls, in low class parts of town.

If someone went to the dirtiest street in New York, exclusively went to clubs frequented by hookers, and fucked hookers and drug addicts on a regular basis, they would say the same shit. The problem is, if they would just read the damn advice on RVF, they would have known that there are way better parts of NYC to hit up.

Ok, I think scam is the wrong word, rather agressive short sightedness, petty theft, annoyances.

For instance, I had to go through a dozen taxis to find one who quoted me a reasonable price to the airport, then when we get to the airport its "you pay me 100 baht tip more or I take you back to the hotel"

Do I care about $3? not at all, but the same thing like getting over charged 20 cents for an ice cream, it just all leaves a bad taste and the feeling of being used (haha I sound like a woman). You realize most of those people who were nice to you, hell even the women who fucked you most of them only had money and a better life on the mind.

@ old rich, I'm 23. I can do excellent anywhere in asia. As mentioned before, I look like a leukrang. Girls open me, pick me up from street spots.

Another aside, when I bought street food I spoke in transactional Thai and got different menu then when I was with a white friend

@ kdog u got ripped. Paid 175 for Viagra not generic and 175 for cialis. I am excellent bargainer! If u don't get rejected by 2-3 stalls u are overpaying

Bargainer does not quite describe DVY... He literally pissed off half of Sukhumvit with his lowball offers but amazingly got prices down to what he was willing to give, it just took a few booths and cringing. Travelhardcore and I were often happy to buy something for 200 instead of 300 but DVY insisted and got things down to 150 more than once.
Taxis are a big problem and shoot themselves in the foot. I would have avoided bts etc and always taken taxis had they not turned out so shady that I was worried to even get into one. They probably lost out on a good 3000 baht over three weeks and when they went in circles to make an extra three baht it meant no tip which would otherwise have been 30 baht etc... I will not even get a taxi to the airport but asked a girl to drive me on Tuesday after I saw DVY getting refused and then "taken in" by the scamming concierge who suggested a 400 baht bargain when real meter rates are 230....
DVY and I both turned into old scowling men who inspected every bill critically in a matter of just two weeks. It's not about the few baht or dollars but the fact that you are disrespected and taken for an idiot. They even officially post museum entry fees that are high for foreigners, free or 10% for locals. Try that in the west!

Quote: (12-16-2012 10:20 AM)Asaxon Wrote:  

Taxis are a big problem and shoot themselves in the foot. I would have avoided bts etc and always taken taxis had they not turned out so shady that I was worried to even get into one. They probably lost out on a good 3000 baht over three weeks and when they went in circles to make an extra three baht it meant no tip which would otherwise have been 30 baht etc.

That's exactly the shortsightedness I was talking about. They are aboslutley insistant on doing something that is worse for you and what a logical person should be able to conclude in advance is worse for them too.

A restraunt I was at wanted 30 baht/hr for a computer plug in. I said Ill buy 3 beer and you give me free power for ~2 hours. Nope. OK. one beer and I leave when my battery dies.

I'm headed back to bkk for a week on the 28th. Who is still left there? I know travelhardcore will be in another area of Thailand. Asaxon and DVY are headed home. So Scotian and Rionomad are the only guys who will be in bkk around that time or will there be more?

Quote: (12-16-2012 10:03 AM)DVY Wrote:  

@ kdog u got ripped. Paid 175 for Viagra not generic and 175 for cialis. I am excellent bargainer! If u don't get rejected by 2-3 stalls u are overpaying

I bought it at the pharmacy. I honestly didn't trust the random street stalls selling that stuff and I assumed it was fake as well.

I'm also going to be there for about a week from the 28th. This thread made me change my travel plans completely - amazing stuff.

Incidentally, I have a cousin who's been living in Bangkok for 25 years. His perspective is that the cultural stigma of ripping someone off there isn't morally reprehensible, but rather it's a matter of one being clever. Well, on the little stuff at least, that's not an endorsement of violent crime. Obviously, the same behavior transpires outside of Thailand as well, but that was one local's explanation on why you need to be on guard if you're watching your baht.

All of these complaints you guys have are valid. Thais are very short sighted when it comes to business of any kind, they are not intellectual, and given the chance some will try to get as much money from you as possible.

You will encounter all of this about 5 times as much when you hang out in tourist places like lower sukhumvit, silom, koh san road, etc... No matter where you go it is annoying I can agree with that. And when you are on a couple week holiday it can really get on your nerves.

However it does get easier if you spend some extended time their. Once your thai is good enough that you can tell the taxi driver in thai directions almost all scams stop. You also learn how to get places and can direct him if it is a problem. You also get to a point where you are never browsing outside a restaurant where people come out to annoy you when you look at the menue because you already know where you are going.

You will also hardly ever be bargaining for anything in the streets because you just go to tesco or big c to get what you need. If you need something from a place you have to bargin you send one of your thai girls to do it or speak a little thai and it is no big deal.

Thai peoples attitudes change greatly when they see you all the time over the course of several months. When they know you live there and they see you all the time they can be incredibly nice and helpful. The motorbike taxi guys on my corner near my condo used to help me out all the time because we saw each other everyday. It is simply a different overall vibe when people no longer see you as a tourist.

The overall annoyances everyone is talking about decreases with time and experience, but never goes away. If you want to enjoy yourself in thailand you have to be able to accept the Thai attitude of "Mai Pen Rai" or "don't worry abou it". For some it is just not their personality so they will never enjoy it.

To each his own...

Well said Direct Danger. When I was living in BKK, I never had any issues with taxis or restaurants padding my bill. And the only Thai I spoke was kor pun ka, sawadee ka. Nothing else. Each time I was getting into a cab, I made sure the meter was on and never had a problem. From the airport, it's well known fact anywhere in the world NOT to take a cab from the Arrivals area but rather go to the Departure area and get a cab there for the local price with the meter being used.

Not sure what you guys are doing to be running into all this problems. Never happened to me or anyone I knew there. It's not difficult guys, when you get to LOS, leave your ego and western arrogance on the side, remember, you're in THEIR country, and as a guest, you need to respect their laws and cultures. And that includes do not get a Thai pissed off as they do not fight fair but rather have the entire street join up to beat the crap out of the farang.

The only time I came close to any problem was with a stupid drunk english hooligan while watching a football match at a bar.

As to causing a scene for 4 lousy bahts, (that's about 12 cents!) guys, I understand it's annoying but are you going to let 4 bahts screw your mood and turn a great day/night into a bad one? Or 30 (1$) or even 100 bahts (3.3$). Guys, be smarter than that, choose your battles more carefully and be smart.

Vacancier, I agree with all that 100%. For 100 baht I made some token resistence, he said he was taking me back then, since I had a flight to catch I pretty quickly gave in. Certainly didn't cause a scene or made threats. I learned long ago not to compound one bad situation with further mistakes.

Its the same thing at work in Indonesia. While Indo is much much better from that perspective I've found, often at very remote work sites we have to pay $10 a day for "security" to a group of guys who happen to be the biggest guys in whatever remote town we're working near. Turns out the security is from them throwing rocks at us, or stealing whatever they can get away with when we're not there.

The reason why I have such a problem with this, is because this is part of the reason why these places remain impoverished. Their best asset is their tourism aspect, and the best marketing in the world is word of mouth. Which places am I going to reocommend to my firends? All scams and minor injustices in Thailand totaled less than $20, really nothing. However like Aasaxon says, it's not about the money. It's about that they don't respect you, don't care about you, and really only see you as a walking dollar sign. I left Thailand feeling scammed and used, they didn't want to show me their nice country, they didn't want to make a tricky situation easier for mutual benifit/cultural exchange, they wanted money. Period. As much as they could get, as quickly as they could get, and if I hated them for it and never came back, that was fine by them. I don't want to visit, live in, or recommend such a place to anyone. Which is really the exact opposite of what they needed.

In medium sized towns of Indonesia I have found nothing but hospitality. I can make a very generous offer to a cab(by their terms) and they will entertain unusual requests terms of taking me places or waiting, literally bend over backwards for me, and then I'll buy them lunch as a thank you on top. The money means nothing to me. They need it a ton more than me. I'm happy to help them and be more than generous. Maybe the difference is the tourism aspect, but even in Bali I found it considerably better than Phuket.

I never "made a scene" but it pisses me off internally to be taken for a ride and seen as a scam victim. Sure I am in their country but does this mean I need to love the scams and exploitation? Does it mean what they do is right or motivates me to come back? I honestly think that they lose out big time by trying to pull one over for a few baht here or there. Stable, reliable institutions are what makes a country successful and attractive to business and tourism, see Singapore for example. Thailand has a lot to offer and it is a pity that they diminish the experience and their own future income by being greedy and shifty at times.
Vacancier, If you never got scammed with taxis I assume you know the shortest routes in Bkk to all your destinations?They always took slightly longer ways with me, nothing huge but enough to notice. I doubt this was somehow my fault because it seems their default tactic as far as expats here told me.

Most people just do not notice the detours. Ignorance is bliss when it comes to the small scams and issues but once it gets int the hundreds and thousands of baht it is plainly annoying and time consuming to ward it off. Even my Thai girl has to fight taxi guys every day to take her to work and use the meter instead of whining and haggling and she has lived here all her life. She has shown me the different menus at restaurants where English prices are double the Thai ones. Most people just cannot read Thai numbers...also western bills often get undeclared "service charges" of 10% that magically do not occur on a bill for Thais.
To summarize I agree that to most people the small scams are financially peanuts but that it creates a feeling of unease and resentment to be exploited, misquoted and harassed 24/7. To me peace of mind is valuable and I would rather spend 2k per week in a place where I know things are reliable and I am respected than spend 1.5k and constantly fight off scams and be demeaned to a human ATM.