Tuthmosis,

Have you ever hit a woman? Break it down....what happened?

Quote: (10-17-2012 08:52 AM)Vorkuta Wrote:  

Quote: (10-17-2012 04:55 AM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  

Beaten women tend to be very loyal from what I've seen. Even when they're afraid their partner is going to kill them, they still go back, saying "I'm afraid... But I love him!" I've also noticed that when these women finally leave their husbands, they don't want anything out of them - they don't ask for alimony or even for child support.

Loyal out of fear of getting a beating if they get caught probably. Also loyal out of being made to feel worthless and not having the courage to leave. Also not wanting money or child support probably because they don't want any kind of contact in any form from a man who abused them. I grew up in an abusive family with a mother who was abused by my father so I see no positives from it at all.

Sorry but if you have to hit a woman to keep her in line then you have no game. I have an eight year old daughter,do I slap her to keep her in line? Nope,she respects me so my word is enough. If you're word is not enough to control your woman then get rid of her,why put up with someone who disrespects you? As soon as a woman gives me shit I tell them straight up that I won't accept behavior like that and that if they pull that shit again I'll kick them out. Does it always work? Nope. So I kick them out,no second chance. Of course I've been hurt by the fact that I've had to do it but I can get a new girl anytime I want,I can go out tonight and get a new girl,so why put up with someone who thinks you're weak enough to take her shit?

@Vorkuta: Well first of all, I'm sorry to hear about your personal history, and congratulations for having a good relationship with your daughter. From what I've seen the cycle of violence usually hops from generation to generation and you've chosen to break away from it, so that's admirable.

I apologise if I struck a nerve with you. I based my observation on my own clinical experiences - I've encountered battered women who refused my help in escaping their situation. I don't know if there was any chance of escape in your family and I apologise if my remark seemed callous.

You asked in this thread what kind of violence is appropriate, which is a relevant question. I would say that as long as you are not causing bruising or any physical sign of harm then it's okay. The point of an ear flick or a foot flick or a firm spank on the buttocks is to get a point across, not to cause injury. Sourcecode's bearhug example is also a good one.

It's okay to disagree with this. If you can control your woman without having to display physical dominance, that's great.

I'm only going to say this once again. Any man who hits someone significantly weaker than them (and it's not out of self defense i.e. being hit first) is a pussy. Like Vorkuta, I grew up under an asshole like that, and there's nothing manly or "alpha" about that kind of behavior.

People can spout all this 1950s barnyard drivel about "being a man and disciplining their women", but if you have to hit someone you're living with to get them to listen to you, partularly if that person can't hold their own against you physically, that shows how much real authority you had in the first place.

Quote: (10-17-2012 02:25 PM)Sargon of Akkad Wrote:  

I'm only going to say this once again. Any man who hits someone significantly weaker than them (and it's not out of self defense i.e. being hit first) is a pussy. Like Vorkuta, I grew up under an asshole like that, and there's nothing manly or "alpha" about that kind of behavior.

People can spout all this 1950s barnyard drivel about "being a man and disciplining their women", but if you have to hit someone you're living with to get them to listen to you, partularly if that person can't hold their own against you physically, that shows how much real authority you had in the first place.

I'm going to side-step your point, and ask you what you think of a different one. Let's forget for the moment the question of if there can ever be justification for hitting a woman.

What about the question of cause and effect?

Is it true that hitting a woman (not beating her - hitting her, perhaps with an open palm and leaving no bruises) can under some circumstances cause the woman to fall in love more than she would have had only words been used?

And please remember that what is being discussed is not a post traumatic stress inducing constant fear of violence. Let's allow a little nuance here.

I like the way Edward Debono who coined the term and wrote books on lateral thinking describes our thinking process. He uses the analogy of a rubber sheet. If you drop a big steel marble onto it, it creates a depression. If you drop a smaller marble close enough to the big one, it will swoop into the depression. This is how our concepts work. The strategy for clear thinking is to have nuance - to let the big marble create a separate indentation to the similar but not the same smaller marble.

An infrequent open palmed slap is not the same as regular full force beatings. They are not both in the same indentation of "domestic violence" and physical abuse.

Quote: (10-17-2012 02:25 PM)Sargon of Akkad Wrote:  

I'm only going to say this once again. Any man who hits someone significantly weaker than them (and it's not out of self defense i.e. being hit first) is a pussy. Like Vorkuta, I grew up under an asshole like that, and there's nothing manly or "alpha" about that kind of behavior.

People can spout all this 1950s barnyard drivel about "being a man and disciplining their women", but if you have to hit someone you're living with to get them to listen to you, partularly if that person can't hold their own against you physically, that shows how much real authority you had in the first place.

I agree. Which might sound hypocritical because I have slapped women in my life. Maybe I should have handled those situations differently, maybe I should have controlled myself better. I'm not proud of what I did but I'm not ashamed of it either. The first girl I slapped was way out of line. Talking shit to me in front of my friends. I just instinctively slapped her. I honestly did not make a conscious decision to do it, it just happened. If she would have called the cops I would probably regret doing it because I could have been arrested.

I think there are rare situations where people need to get smacked. I'm not only talking about women. Men need to get smacked too sometimes. Little kids need to get smacked on the ass, dogs need there collars yanked. There is a time for it.

I have seen women beaten into unconsciousness with broken noses, jaws, etc. I have seen women get raped. Almost always the guy doing it is an idiot. Rarely, is the guy a strong alpha who is doing it because he needs to set the world straight. Usually he is just a pussy picking on someone half his size.

Quote: (10-17-2012 04:31 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

Quote: (10-17-2012 02:25 PM)Sargon of Akkad Wrote:  

I'm only going to say this once again. Any man who hits someone significantly weaker than them (and it's not out of self defense i.e. being hit first) is a pussy. Like Vorkuta, I grew up under an asshole like that, and there's nothing manly or "alpha" about that kind of behavior.

People can spout all this 1950s barnyard drivel about "being a man and disciplining their women", but if you have to hit someone you're living with to get them to listen to you, partularly if that person can't hold their own against you physically, that shows how much real authority you had in the first place.

I agree. Which might sound hypocritical because I have slapped women in my life. Maybe I should have handled those situations differently, maybe I should have controlled myself better. I'm not proud of what I did but I'm not ashamed of it either. The first girl I slapped was way of line. Talking shit to me in front of my friends. I just instinctively slapped her. I honestly did not make a conscious decision to do it, it just happened. If she would have called the cops I would probably regret doing it because I could have been arrested.

I think there are rare situations where people need to get smacked. I'm not only talking about women. Men need to get smacked too sometimes. Little kids need to get smacked on the ass, dogs need there collars yanked. There is a time for it.

I have seen women beaten into unconsciousness with broken noses, jaws, etc. I have seen women get raped. Almost always the guy doing it is an idiot. Rarely, is the guy a strong alpha who is doing it because he needs to set the world straight. Usually he is just a pussy picking on someone half his size.

I agree with the general attitude and tone of this.

You point out that it is not a black and white situation, and that the guy who BEATS women is doing something dramatically DIFFERENT than the guy who is acting appropriately during a rare context.

That is clear, nuanced thinking.

Some guys are "thinking" with their protective instinct, and doing some mighty big lumping of ideas that vaguely remind them of each other.

It's perfectly possible to be in a loving relationship and have very good self control and to still decide that it is appropriate, just, and for the benefit of all to use moderate violence.

I believe Sean Connery was or is married for a long time to a devoted wife.

If he followed the black and white never hit rule, and left her for not accepting any form of discipline short of that, then his marriage would have failed.

The NEVER-any-violence-ever-ever-ever-ever-ever guys are advocating home-wrecking.

That's what happens when you hold on to principles, regardless of shifting contexts. The principles bite you in the ass, and you wind up with a worse result.

Pacifists.

@Vorkuta
I have never beaten or really hit a woman. One spanking and then a hug and heartfelt apology doesn't constitute beating a woman. The title was meant to be provocative and I feel like you used the provocative post to get up a little too high on your pedestal-if you were directing your comment at me, but I don't think you were so if not disregard. I am in complete agreement against violence, I immiedeitly regretted spanking her without her permission. What I was trying to get across was that she responded well to something I was mortified i had just done. My point was yet another example that women respond to things different than what they say they respond too.

I usually grab both wrists and drive them into the wall pinning her up against it and then i get real intense and in there face. Which usually gets me hard. Am I weird?

I've also picked up a girl and body slammed her real hard into the couch.

Quote: (10-17-2012 06:53 AM)xsplat Wrote:  

Quote: (10-17-2012 06:36 AM)j r Wrote:  

When was the last time you hit an American woman? And how old was she?

I can't prove that there exists a single cross cultural innate trait. I've lived in the west, but that was over 12 years ago, and so now people tell me that it's all different now.

So you can invalidate all my experience if you want.

But I have strong reasons to believe that these are cross-cultural innate traits common to all female humans.

The legal and cultural issues are another issue. Whether your culture and law supports it or not, women respond positively to appropriate violence.

And you don't have to look far within your own western culture for examples of this.

A couple of things.

I don't disagree with the idea that many women may respond positively to a man who is willing to deploy violence. My issue is with the cost-benefit analysis. In a culture where people still regularly beat their kids and their wives and children, it's probably not such a big deal. In America, you're really rolling the dice.

Sure, there are innate hind brain tendencies that all woman have, but the average twenty-something American girl has probably been treated as a special little princess since the day she was born. She's likely never been seriously beat by her parents and there's a good chance that her father is a beta. On the one hand, this makes her very receptive to man with balls who won't take her shit, but the idea of actually being struck is foreign to her. She melt into a puddle of deep love and affection or she may pick up the phone and call the cops.

If she does call the cops, then what? A lot of police forces have a policy where if they come for domestic violence incident someone has to go to jail. Unless you're Chris Brown or Sean Connery or some other sufficiently rich, high status guy, the last thing you need is to be known as a wife beater. If you're in school, there goes your reputation on campus. Good luck getting a job with a domestic battery charge on your record.

Here's the other thing for me. The type of girl who's likely to stick around after a slap or a punch (again, I mean in America) is really not they kind of girl that I want around. She's likely to be deeply damaged and in need of increasing levels of violence to get off. So, you tell her to shut the fuck up and she does, but then after a few times that doesn't work. Now you have to grab her and shake her and then you need to slap her. How long before the only thing that creates the same emotional response is a straight ass-whipping?

I can see having a relationship in which the violence is meted out as part of an agreed upon dynamic, like in a BDSM context. I just don't see how any man in America or in the West in general, who doesn't exclusively date rednecks and ghetto broads, can successfully be on some slap a bitch shit. I'm interested in hearing from anyone who does, though.

The only piece of advice my mother gave me that I actually follow today is " if someone hits you, you hit them back twice as hard. " At the time she was referring to the neighborhood girls I grew up around.

I've left girl fight posts all over this forum but there's moves you can pull that makes it look like an accident.
A leg hook bar stool move that can leave the offender on her or his face and a whiplash move where you snap the offenders waist from the back when the face is close to a wall or door that just looks like the offender tripped and face got busted up. I'll try to describe but these moves keeps the white knights and security at bay because nobody can see your hands in a bar or club environment because the hand move is done at waist level and the leg moves nobody's looking for..

Let me find an old thread of mine..
http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-9642.html

I don't believe in hitting a woman except for self-defense but.....

spitting on someone is the ultimate disrespect (also what that girl on the bus did to the driver).

I still don't know if I would actually "hit" her...but one or two wrestling submission holds is a-comin'

JR, it hasn't been my experience that violence escalates and the girl grows to want more of it.

My experience is the opposite.

My legal situation in SE Asia is at least as precarious as any guys in North America. I had the police called on me once for leaving a girl and taking my computer with me - nothing to do with hitting her. I was in the back of the cop car and the cops were asking her how much money they should ask from me to give to her so that they'd let me go. They'd get a cut, of course. If we were not able to come to an agreement the cops were willing to see me rot in jail. There are guys right now rotting in jail just because their girlfriends told the cops to make it so. In these countries we are not human to the cops. They are hatefully racist. Even your lawyer here can dick you around and feel no guilt for it. It's astounding.

It was a relief to hear you start your comment with the acknowledgment of what I've been trying to say - over and over. Regardless of how right or wrong it is, women everywhere have subroutines built into them that make them respond favorably to appropriate violence.

I almost breathed a literal sigh of relief to finally be able to come to such a simple understanding of common ground!

Here is how most women and some men think: "I'm having a VERY strong emotional reaction right now, that means that something is wrong, and that means that I'm right about what's wrong." Once the emotions get strong enough there is nothing that can be spoken that will alter beliefs. The emotions ARE the beliefs!

Now regards to our protective instincts, we also have competing instincts. For instance we have the instinct for retribution. So for some guys, it's "fair" to hit a girl if she hits you first. That can overcome the protective instinct.

And for others we have other emotions and instincts, but also our pre-frontal cortex is wired up to our amygdala, and so our emotions and logical mind is integrated. Emotions don't drown out our reasoning, and are tempered by reasoning. We can think about why we have beliefs, instead of merely FEELING our beliefs, and therefore knowing what we believe.

But back again to being familiar with the dynamic that moves women to not press charges. I'm at at least as much legal risk as anyone if I use violence, and I'd argue much more. I'd explain the reason this hasn't happened is the feelings I invoke in the girl.

I don't invoke fear, or betrayal. If there is any desire for retribution it's short lived and overcome by a desire for closeness. Why is this? It's the full gestalt of attitude. I think people are getting bored of the term "alpha", but I don't know a better word to use to invoke the attitude that must go along with violence to make it congruent and lead the girl to submission and wanting to be closer.

It has to come from you in such a way as to be you, be expected, and feel right to you. Then it will feel right to her, and she won't get into a power struggle with you about it. She'll just assume her new place in a new dynamic, and submit.

And here is the point people are missing. When she submits it means she'll cut that nonsense out. She'll open up her heart. She'll TRUST you to handle your shit, and to handle her.

I know that for guys who have no experience with this I'm making a huge demand on the imagination. I suggest people look at this montage of old movie clips below.

There was a time when people simply knew about this stuff. It's lost knowledge.

Let's bring it back.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/TsegTiuEoq8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Why isn't the embed working? Here's the link.

http://youtu.be/TsegTiuEoq8

And if people think this is old school caveman shit that people have grown out of, now that we are more enlightened, you've got it backwards. You've been brainwashed by the feminine imperative that you are soaking in.

Women are not equal, women are not the same, and SOMETIMES a positive outcome all around is had by the man taking physical control. Sometimes with a slap, or similar. If you have congruence and the woman is into you, she will appreciate this and behave better and feel better around you and love you more and become an all around better human being for it.

If she really fucks up, sure. Otherwise not really. Usually yelling gets the job done.

Quote: (10-17-2012 07:57 PM)UrbanNerd Wrote:  

I don't believe in hitting a woman except for self-defense but.....

spitting on someone is the ultimate disrespect (also what that girl on the bus did to the driver).

I still don't know if I would actually "hit" her...but one or two wrestling submission holds is a-comin'

Spitting on you IS an assault. Hitting is perfectly appropriate self defense. You can't speculate as to whether they will continue assaulting you, so a quick left hook that turns their head away from you, and then face plantng them into the ground is an appropiate response. My state has specific case law that hitting someone that spits on you is NOT assault.

I agree with j r here. Maybe hitting the woman will bind her to you, maybe you will create the connection you need. But maybe instead she calls the cops on you, and then you are going to jail. How is any woman's love worth that? If it's gotten to the point where you would need to hit her, better to cut your losses and move on. There's enough in my life that I enjoy that I don't want to lose by risking jail for hitting a girl.

For thousands of years, men all over the world had the authority to give out appropriate corporal punishment to children and spouses. No, this normally wasn't remotely the same thing as the "Abuse Cycle" described by feminists. The "Abuse Cycle" is a very real and horrific thing, but trying to claim every guy that did it for thousands for years was acting out this "abuse cycle" is an intellectual "bait and switch". It's like claiming that every parent that spanked a child to keep them out of trouble is the same as some sick bastard burning them with cigarettes. Like a lot of other things we've discovered, it's something society told us that just isn't 100% true.

I certainly works. It personally offends me, and I think it's somewhat barbaric, and exceptionally unethical for me given my profession. I've found an ethical/legal work around. I play a lot of light S&M in my lovelife, with a well understood and respected safeword. If she's giving me a hard time (actually looking for a show of dominance from me, not crazy angry or with a legtitimate issue) I just throw her over my knee and spank her. Has almost every element of dominance slapping has, with benefit of being ethical and consensual. If we're exceptionally close and she's into it, choking plays well too (wouldn't do this with someone I didn't have a close bond with).

This may sound silly, and not make a lot of sense, but if she's giving you a hard time for irrational reasons, this makes her want to treat you well for irrational reasons. One set of irrational behavior countered by another.

And FWIW, Tyler Durden once wrote a piece on it, as an extremely effective (albeit illegal) way of passing a shit test. Basic old school pimp game, it certainly works.

DarkTriad, if the results are favorable for both the man and the woman, why is the action unethical?

Quote: (10-17-2012 09:21 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  

Quote: (10-17-2012 07:57 PM)UrbanNerd Wrote:  

I don't believe in hitting a woman except for self-defense but.....

spitting on someone is the ultimate disrespect (also what that girl on the bus did to the driver).

I still don't know if I would actually "hit" her...but one or two wrestling submission holds is a-comin'

Spitting on you IS an assault. Hitting is perfectly appropriate self defense. You can't speculate as to whether they will continue assaulting you, so a quick left hook that turns their head away from you, and then face plantng them into the ground is an appropiate response. My state has specific case law that hitting someone that spits on you is NOT assault.

Spitting on someone is an offensive contact and is therefore an assault, not just in my jurisdiction, but in others. Hitting a person who spits on you may or may not constitute self-defense in my jurisdiction. It all depends on the circumstances. As I stated in another thread, when a person raises a claim of self defense, the burden shifts to the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that one of the following factors does not apply: that the Defendant actually believed that he was in danger of imminent serious bodily harm, that the Defendant's belief was reasonable, and that the Defendant did not use any more force than was reasonably necessary in light of the actual or threatened harm. I believe that if a woman spits on you, does not put her hands on you in any way and you hit her more than once, you would automatically be out of the box on a self-defense claim. I believe such an amount of force would be excessive under the circumstances. On the other hand, if a women spits on you, threatens you, gets in your face, and you hit her once, the state may have trouble arguing that you did not actually believe that she could or would hurt you or that your belief was reasonable. If she spits on you, does nothing else, walks away, and you hit her while she is walking away, I'm pretty sure you would be screwed trying to make a self-defense claim. If she spits on you from a few feet away, stays there, does not get in your face, and does not make any threats, I also think you would have a difficult time arguing that you believed you were in danger and that your belief was reasonable. In my jurisdiction, self-defense with regard to hitting in response to spitting all depends on the circumstances.

I have been practicing for almost ten years. Every single time I have intended to raise a self-defense issue in a case, the state has either dropped the case or my client was found not guilty after a full trial. Interestingly, although I have made self-defense arguments on numerous occasions, I have never had a judge specifically rule that my client's actions amounted to self-defense. They were always found not guilty for reasons unrelated to self-defense.

Xsplat nailed it on the first page.... While I have no experience upper cutting bitches up to the ceiling, I have given my fair share of open hand slaps to the face. Not trying to be a dick, If you HAVE NO EXPERIENCE in "disciplining" your women, then please keep your trap shut on the effects it has or how it's morally wrong . We can argue till you become blue in the face but until you discipline your girl with an open hand, you have no idea the effects it has...she is putty in your hand...

Let me get this straight...It's ok to discipline your dog if doesn't follow the rules, but it's not alright if a chick steps out of line. I feel more bad for my dog, a dog is completely helpless. A chick can defend her herself and HAS turned a knife on me but that just lead to killer make up sex... Not once was the cops called on me...

Let's take a poll.... How Many Guys Have Ever Gave An Open Hand Slap... +1...I'm not taking about an ass whooping, I am talking about "discipline"

That's why these girls are out of control... not enough men to go around willing to discipline them... that's why they feel like they can cross the line whenever they feel like it, it's because of asses that are afraid to raise their hand.

"I grew up in an abusive family with a mother who was abused by my father so I see no positives from it at all"

Guys need to know the difference between disciplining and abusing. My pops disciplined her, he didn't abuse her.

From my experience, she is more than likely to blow you before she calls the cops on you... sick shit, i know

Quote: (10-17-2012 06:07 PM)KorbenDallas Wrote:  

@Vorkuta
I have never beaten or really hit a woman. One spanking and then a hug and heartfelt apology doesn't constitute beating a woman. The title was meant to be provocative and I feel like you used the provocative post to get up a little too high on your pedestal-if you were directing your comment at me, but I don't think you were so if not disregard. I am in complete agreement against violence, I immiedeitly regretted spanking her without her permission. What I was trying to get across was that she responded well to something I was mortified i had just done. My point was yet another example that women respond to things different than what they say they respond too.

No mate it wasn't aimed at you at all. I was writing in response to something Thomas said ( hence quoting his post ).

I think we can all see the difference between beating a woman out of anger and not controlling your emotions and mutually wanting the relationship to have some rough play in it.

Giovanny ( as I think you have subsequently intimated ) slapping that girl for being rude was wrong. You were not under attack,she wasn't threatening you,she was just rude. Slapping a girl for being rude in my eyes is wrong. Fuck me,if I slapped every girl who had been shitty with me on a night out I'd have been locked up years ago. You shouldn't sweat that shit. The correct response is to use your superior wit and intellect to bring her down verbally. Players laugh those shit tests off. You let yourself down.

Others like Xsplat are saying (paraphrasing ) 'once you hit them they change,they fall deep for you'. I say you ain't got no game mate. If you need to hit a woman to make her fall deep for you then you should be in the newbie forum. Do you think Roosh slaps his women to get them to fall for him? Nah. He has game to do it naturally. Same for 99% of the other posters I expect. We will game a girl so she falls deep. Do that through personality,character,game,the way I fuck her,how I make her feel inside. I don't need to smack them to do that. You should work on your game more.

Quote: (10-17-2012 10:36 PM)Majestic Wrote:  

We can argue till you become blue in the face but until you discipline your girl with an open hand, you have no idea the effects it has...she is putty in your hand...

Sure she is putty in your hand,great!

You don't seem to get it. The point is most of us can get them to be putty without hitting them,you and Xsplat can't. Work on your game and on yourself so that women are deep into you. Then you won't need to hit them. Or are you saying you like hitting them? In that case you have issues and insecurities that you need sorting ( which is probably why your women are not respecting you in the first place ).

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For thousands of years, men all over the world had the authority to give out appropriate corporal punishment to children and spouses.

For thousands of years, men had the right to own slaves. I guess that makes slavery all nice and dandy.

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...every parent that spanked a child to keep them out of trouble is the same as some sick bastard burning them with cigarettes.

Only we're not talking about children...

Quote: (10-17-2012 10:36 PM)Majestic Wrote:  

Not trying to be a dick, If you HAVE NO EXPERIENCE in "disciplining" your women, then please keep your trap shut on the effects it has or how it's morally wrong.

So, I guess if you have no experience stealing from people you should keep your mouth shut about it, too.

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Let me get this straight...It's ok to discipline your dog if doesn't follow the rules, but it's not alright if a chick steps out of line.

So women are like dogs, now? Sorry, but what is this BS?

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I feel more bad for my dog, a dog is completely helpless.

You've never been bitten by a dog, I take it.

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A chick can defend her herself

The average woman is not capable of holding her own against a healthy adult male.

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[...] HAS turned a knife on me [...]

It's already been made clear multiple times that we're not talking about self defense. If a chic turns a knife on me, I have every right to break her nose.

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That's why these girls are out of control...not enough men to go around willing to discipline them... that's why they feel like they can cross the line whenever they feel like it, it's because of asses that are afraid to raise their hand.

Yeah, afraid to hit someone who's weaker and smaller than them...like a real man would.
I wonder how many of the guys here saying women should become second class citizens again would be willing to slap another man across the face if he stepped out of line, especially if that man was bigger than them and could put up a fight. It takes absolutely no courage to hit someone weaker than you.