I'm having trouble believing this and I have spent time in Kiev. Are you trying to say that women in Ukraine have absolutely no interest in what a guy looks like?

Example there are two well dressed guys in a bar one is very good looking with model looks the other one is a short average looking dude. So before these guys talk to any girls will they both be regarded exactly the same and the girls will have zero preference for the good looking guy?

Isn't it enough to just say that money matters much more than looks in general in the Ukraine, but looks still matter??

We get it; it's a traditional provider culture, where Western game and silly humor goes over like shit. They value stability, intelligence, and achievement much like the rest of the world, EXCEPT that the women are not nearly as likely to trade a very average looking man with these qualities for the chance at getting with a male model with unknown provider abilities; not even for a night. They are pragmatic, meaning the brain overpowers the gina tingle, at least for a girl past her late teens. This makes sense.

With that said, an average looking 50's bald man with no style and little money does like shit everywhere, sorry. It's not worth mentioning, except to say that if he has some cash that he could do much better in FSU, Colombia, SEA, or any other place where being practical/provided for, matters more than getting the hottest guy around for bragging rights.

To say that looks and age don't matter everywhere is complete bullshit. It just doesn't matter near as much as money, trust, and provider qualities in many places around the world. You aren't gonna get the big "bump up" over average guy like you do in the US just based on looks, and it may even work against you AT FIRST because the sniff test will be harder to overcome. It can still be overcome.

I can't say that I have any idea what the optimal game is, but we can seem to agree on confidence, leading, dressing well, and maybe just being extremely genuine to try to build trust, but in a more simple, non bragging way. This seems like universal game to me.

As for age and looks, they still matter to some degree. Almost every girl on mamba still puts age requirements for men they want to meet and almost none are more than 10 years older. They still compliment on looks; it's just that it's much fewer and far between. They are much more concerned with your story than your looks. Why are you coming? How long? etc

A good looking guy 27-35, 6'0" with hair and Russian language skills will still trump the bald guy with average looks. It's just that the better looking guys tend not to try so hard or come across poorly by trying to game Western style, and they often never learn the language sufficiently.

Quote: (05-01-2012 11:36 AM)alphascout Wrote:  

Those who do not benefit from Ukraine:
-standard western alpha guys who would do really well back in the US/England/Australia (i.e., standard 20 something, tall, good looking, well dressed) do worse than they do back home. I've seen guy after guy who would clean up back home, expecting alpha status in Ukraine strike out time and time again. They totally don't understand why the Ukrainian guy, who would be completely sub-beta in western culture, is banging 9s left and right. At best they wind up with Ukrainian 5s, who are the equivalent of Western 7-8s. So they are about where they left off.


-I was seeing a girl who was working at a marriage agency behind the scenes, she told me no one ever gets married. the girl that goes on dates is a payed model, who goes on 1-2 dates than rejects the guy ("sorry its not working out"). the person who chats with the guy is not the girl who shows up, girls are basically given a data sheet before the date. They guy who ran the hostel I was staying at also told me in several years, he has never seen any old foreign guys marry a hot young ukrainian. It just doesn't happen and is basically a scam. Sorry old dudes!


-don't speak russian to women in western ukraine. They don't like russians and will even go so far as to tell you to speak english.

I call Shenanigan's on these points. They are basically full of shit and most who have been there on this forum will call you out on it. If you are tall, reasonable/good looking and well dressed you will get a lot of IOI's.

As for your marriage agency thing, the 1-2 date thing would happen on guys who come over for romance tours etc where they do load their socials with paid professionals. As a generally rule of thumb most people in Marriage Agency correspondences now do phone/skype to verify the person is real due to the high amount of scammers. I know quite a few "old dudes" that have come home with 8-9 quality wives half their age. Doesn't happen as much as it used to but I know of a few.

Now the Western Ukraine thing, LOL! The observation of many here is most people dont even speak English so once again another baseless comment.

One time, I asked a Ukrainian girl what she looks for in a guy? She said something like "same as what any girl wants: looks, personality, money".

I do remember seeing a lot of busted-dude mismatches in Ukraine. But then there were lots of normal looking couples too (alpha girl with alpha guy). I get the sense that looks matter but they aren't a deal breaker in the way they might be in the West.

They also want to feel protected.A Serbian guy with biceps like pistons and threatening posture can do much better in Ukraine than an average foreigner.Ukrainian women get often harassed and want a guy to clear for them.They also do shit with guys so a protector is always useful.If a guy is not thug type he needs cash unless they see in him a possible future groom who can get them out of the country.

Quote: (05-02-2012 12:48 AM)IVth_Element Wrote:  

Isn't it enough to just say that money matters much more than looks in general in the Ukraine, but looks still matter??

We get it; it's a traditional provider culture, where Western game and silly humor goes over like shit.

Have you been to the Ukraine or FSU?

Ukrainian women combine money with achievement and power.In their world the guy who makes money needs to be adventurous,risky,dangerous because he has to dominate,fight and scare everyone off.So they tend to(falsely) attribute these qualities to westerners who make money in their respective countries.Their disappointment is huge when they settle abroad and see what kind of western guys they dated.

Quote: (05-01-2012 10:31 PM)Jalouse Wrote:  

I'm having trouble believing this and I have spent time in Kiev. Are you trying to say that women in Ukraine have absolutely no interest in what a guy looks like?

Example there are two well dressed guys in a bar one is very good looking with model looks the other one is a short average looking dude. So before these guys talk to any girls will they both be regarded exactly the same and the girls will have zero preference for the good looking guy?

No of course not,that would be ridiculous.

The point being made is that looks are not placed as high up the importance scale as they are to say British women. Does that mean that looks are of no importance to a Russian? No. If there is zero attraction then you're going to have a tough time banging a girl,it would be churlish to say otherwise. But we are not talking about hideous looking people: a guy with rotten teeth,who is 4 foot 9 and fugly is going to struggle just the same as he would back home. What we are saying is that you are not automatically disqualified by a girl purely because you are bald,not tall,don't have a particularly good physique. So as long as you have certain other qualities,speak semi decent Russian,know how to talk to Russian women then even if you are not classically 'handsome' you can still do very,very well with Russian women. Would I do better if I was more handsome,had more hair,better physique? No doubt, but not considerably.

Quote: (05-02-2012 05:33 AM)Vorkuta Wrote:  

The point being made is that looks are not placed as high up the importance scale as they are to say British women.

No, the point that was made was if you are tall, white, good looking this is of no benefit in Ukraine. If you are middle eastern other than turkish, or french, or bald, or short, or ugly, or overweight it is of benefit and you are higher on the food chain over there. He also states that speaking Russian in Western Ukraine to women is an insult and you should speak English to everyone there. Half of his post was pure ridiculous claims. I highly doubt he has even been to Ukraine or anywhere in the FSU based on half the ridiculous things he wrote.

Quote: (05-02-2012 06:11 AM)LifeBeginsAt40 Wrote:  

No, the point that was made was if you are tall, white, good looking this is of no benefit in Ukraine. If you are middle eastern other than turkish, or french, or bald, or short, or ugly, or overweight it is of benefit and you are higher on the food chain over there. He also states that speaking Russian in Western Ukraine to women is an insult and you should speak English to everyone there. Half of his post was pure ridiculous claims. I highly doubt he has even been to Ukraine or anywhere in the FSU based on half the ridiculous things he wrote.

My ex (from eastern Ukraine) said she was ignored a lot when speaking Russian in Western Ukraine. Some insisted on speaking only Ukrainian.

I have heard the same from others that have spent time in Western Ukraine.

Quote: (05-02-2012 06:11 AM)LifeBeginsAt40 Wrote:  

Quote: (05-02-2012 05:33 AM)Vorkuta Wrote:  

The point being made is that looks are not placed as high up the importance scale as they are to say British women.

No, the point that was made was if you are tall, white, good looking this is of no benefit in Ukraine. If you are middle eastern other than turkish, or french, or bald, or short, or ugly, or overweight it is of benefit and you are higher on the food chain over there. Half of his post was pure ridiculous claims. I highly doubt he has even been to Ukraine or anywhere in the FSU based on half the ridiculous things he wrote.

Where exactly does he write it is better to be bald,short or ugly? Can you please supply the quote because I can't find it.

Ukraine news: http://www.euronews.com/sport/1502352-uk...all-nears/

They are getting criticism on all fronts. The Euro2012 won't save them. If anything it will put a spotlight on all the problems and set the stage for national embarrassment

Quote:Quote:

But long-standing prejudices and suspicions among Ukraine’s critics that the country was too much of a lightweight to be entrusted with the Euros have persisted.

Ukraine lends itself easily to stereotypes and cliches.

Chernobyl. Borshch soup. The Orange Revolution. The gigantic Klitschko boxing brothers. Europe’s granary. Elegant women and dating agencies. Bread-basket, bride-basket.

Platini, for all his otherwise generous comments, added another label last month when he harangued Ukraine over the sky-high prices of accommodation on offer to visiting fans.

Quote: (05-02-2012 08:55 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

They are getting criticism on all fronts. The Euro2012 won't save them. If anything it will put a spotlight on all the problems and set the stage for national embarrassment

Well, that sounds like good news, in the medium-term, for the "anxious fucker."

Any of you guys in Ukraine near the bombings the other day? Have they figured out a motive for it all yet I haven't heard anything more on the news since it happened.

lifeover40:
but go re-read my post, you misinterpreted. others understood, vorkuta summarized the point i made accurately.

being bald = not nearly as much as a DLV as in the US
being short, i never saw anything that suggests that being short is less of a DLV than in the US.

All generalizations I drew were based off of living 7 months in Ukraine and are based off of person observation.

Quote: (05-01-2012 10:31 PM)Jalouse Wrote:  

I'm having trouble believing this and I have spent time in Kiev. Are you trying to say that women in Ukraine have absolutely no interest in what a guy looks like?

They do, but they have significantly larger interest in other things which are not related to looks - the most important being your status (which comes up from your wealth, your connections, how you dress up, how you behave yourself and so on). The looks would only be relevant for her if she had to choose between two dudes with exactly the same status but different looks. But this kind of choice doesn't happen in Ukraine.

Quote:Quote:

Example there are two well dressed guys in a bar one is very good looking with model looks the other one is a short average looking dude. So before these guys talk to any girls will they both be regarded exactly the same and the girls will have zero preference for the good looking guy?

You didn't get it. In Ukraine the guy who has status is the chooser because he has much more options than he needs. In the situation you described assuming the guys are high value (like they're sitting in the VIP zone) she'd be happy if ANY of those guys paid any attention to her at all - which would be very unlikely to happen. You don't have high value guys competing for the girls in Ukraine like it happens in the USA.

Quote: (05-02-2012 02:22 AM)LifeBeginsAt40 Wrote:  

I call Shenanigan's on these points. They are basically full of shit and most who have been there on this forum will call you out on it. If you are tall, reasonable/good looking and well dressed you will get a lot of IOI's.

I was born and have lived in Ukraine for a while, and he is correct. You are incorrectly assuming that the IOI there is the same as in US. It is not. An exotic monkey in a zoo gets the same amount of IOIs, and none of them wants to fuck it.

Being well (think expensive) dressed is a different thing though, as it implies you have money. But it has nothing to do with looks. You can be short, bald, old, far and ugly and dress money.

In countries like Ukraine the analogy of decent looking dressed well guys to hot girls is more like 1:20 so the girls are the ones who compete for the few worthy guys.
In Ukraine also there is no middle class cause its development is hindered by the local bosses and the political patrons so the banging possibilities of the upper class are endless(there is no middle class to hinder them in fact they dislike the kitsch and banality of middle class and see themselves as reprentatives of nobility entitled to unlimited desires.

Quote: (05-02-2012 04:48 PM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  

In countries like Ukraine the analogy of decent looking dressed well guys to hot girls is more like 1:20 so the girls are the ones who compete for the few worthy guys.
In Ukraine also there is no middle class cause its development is hindered by the local bosses and the political patrons so the banging possibilities of the upper class are endless(there is no middle class to hinder them in fact they dislike the kitsch and banality of middle class and see themselves as reprentatives of nobility entitled to unlimited desires.

Ukraine sounds fucked up..I can't wait to visit!

Sex in the City

Quote: (05-02-2012 04:08 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

Quote: (05-02-2012 02:22 AM)LifeBeginsAt40 Wrote:  

I call Shenanigan's on these points. They are basically full of shit and most who have been there on this forum will call you out on it. If you are tall, reasonable/good looking and well dressed you will get a lot of IOI's.

I was born and have lived in Ukraine for a while, and he is correct. You are incorrectly assuming that the IOI there is the same as in US. It is not. An exotic monkey in a zoo gets the same amount of IOIs, and none of them wants to fuck it.

Being well (think expensive) dressed is a different thing though, as it implies you have money. But it has nothing to do with looks. You can be short, bald, old, far and ugly and dress money.

That's pretty negative and bitter sounding

I view IOI's in Ukraine as just that.....and they are my opportunity to open and i'm supremely more confident knowing she seems interested. I don't think at any point that a girl might just be window shopping.

If she's giving IOI's but is not interested in sex, then who knows, she might warm to the idea

Girls flake in Ukraine sure, but such is life, can't win em all

Quote: (05-10-2012 01:42 PM)Deb Auchery Wrote:  

That's pretty negative and bitter sounding

Yes, because it is like that there. See, a lot of people here want to know how it is there for real, and what they are likely to experience themselves if they go there. Personally I don't believe in anything you said (the close analog would be you're walking down the street in the US, and every cute girl on your way approaches you and offers to suck your dick, that's how real you sound). but it doesn't matter as what you described is something pretty much nobody else would experience anyway.

Quote:Quote:

I view IOI's in Ukraine as just that.....and they are my opportunity to open and i'm supremely more confident knowing she seems interested.

Actually I tried to run some of the Greek Kamaki's phrases through Google Translate to see how it works. It works well on standard simple interview-style questions, but anything a little complex confuses it. For example "Ukrainian food is great" is translated as "Ukrainian food is large" because "great" means both "large" and "excellent" which are different words in Russian, and the automatic translator cannot pick the proper one.

Even such a basic phrase as "I am single" is translated to "I'm alone" as if it was said by FEMALE ("ya odna"). This is because a lot of words in Russian have genders, meaning you use one form of a word if you're talking about a male, and another form if you're talking about a female (and another one if you're talking about neither). Surprisingly it translates "You're cute" to "you're handsome" ("ty miliy") using the form like you're talking to a dude.

Those sound like a simple issues, but try to write a complex sentence or two with 5-6 cases like that, and she'll spend five minutes going back and forth trying to decipher what you wrote. Good luck getting laid like that.

Question to ROOSH:

First of all thanks on behalf of everyone for slugging it out manfully in the FSU trenches on behalf of love tourists everywhere, can't have been easy.

1) I think most of us here are assuming you're in a second tier Ukrainian city (discounting Minsk,BEL because of the shit storm generated for overstaying).

As a number of us are planning imminent journeys to Ukrainian second tiers before the EURO 2012 ballses things up, and you're nearing the end of your tour of duty there, whats the verdict on spending a few weeks or months there without conversational Russian.
Pending the Try To Bang FSU Shithole book, do you feel there are enough English speaking girls doing the round to make the journey worthwhile? Or is it banging your head against a brick language barrier. Seduction via google translate is not my bag.

2) Out of curiosity, how did you meet your regular bed warmer there? (the lizard you mention you're holding on to) Pipelining? Online once in FSU (mambaru etc)? Daygame? nightgame? social circle? Teaching?

Oldnemisis as I mentioned before, you are just jealous because i am getting results in your home city where you failed for many a year. Your bitterness towards your womenfolk is clear to see.

I've been in Lvov for almost one year, as you know full well, there's nothing much else to attract an expat to your country apart from sexy women. So why have I spent so long there?.

Quote: (05-12-2012 09:04 AM)Deb Auchery Wrote:  

Oldnemisis as I mentioned before, you are just jealous because i am getting results in your home city where you failed for many a year. Your bitterness towards your womenfolk is clear to see.

This is as ridiculous as saying we all should be jealous just because you wrote here you have a 20 inch dick. Relax, dude. You're trying too hard to persuade me you're the real deal, and this is NOT a typical behavior of a successful person. Maybe someone else would believe you, but once you came out as fake there is nothing you can do to persuade me. Just relax and move on.