Additional add on:

8: Five (or three) words that best describe yourself - Whoever got this into the process I would like to smack around a bit. How the hell does my giving you three or five words that I think best describes me helps determine who would be best for the project (or job).

In my professional opinion, things are so bad with the state of the whole process with companies that I do not even think that LYING during the process would help! While having education and experience usually gets you there in person, after that it seems to be almost random as to who gets the project or the job.
The problem is that for many companies it is impossible to tell a lie that would get the work, since there is no way to tell what the company is looking for! In many ways, it reminds me of dealing with women who do not know what they want, but they want it now.

9: A more recent trend is that a number of companies have had unexpected retirements. After years of abusing people, some companies are finding that people are retiring as early as 59. While not many people can do that, I just got a message from someone yesterday that a member of their group gave notice to retire and there is a bit of a panic there because no one else is ready to take over. (It is programming in block chain so I expect to replace the retiring person will be very hard to impossible since how many people are there even with that experience plus would know that person's code base?)
A few weeks ago I was talking with someone that got called in because a company had two database statisticians retire and there is no one to do the work. These two people both took early retirement at age 62.5 and took the company by surprise since it had been expected they were going to stay to full retirement age of 65.

Quote: (02-07-2019 01:32 PM)ShotgunUppercuts Wrote:  

They dont give uou a 2 week notice when they are gonna fire you. So why not reciprocate?

This pretty well covers it. Employers make it clear every step of the way that they owe you nothing, so you don't owe them anything, either.

That said, I've never quit without giving proper notice, for a couple of reasons:

1) It would create a mess for my coworkers. I've had friends and well wishers (as well as enemies) at every corporate cube farm I've worked at. When someone disappears without warning, their work gets distributed among their coworkers, adding to their already excessive workload. I'd feel ashamed if I did this to people I cared about or respected.

2) Even when an employer's policy is to not provide references, there is a lot of behind the scenes talk that goes on, even between people at different companies. Reputation is huge in many industries.

Although I've never "ghosted", one thing I've done is declined an exit interview. HR and management never gave a shit what I thought about their culture or systems, but all of a sudden they want a free consult from me? Fuck that shit. Employees should charge a consulting fee if they feel they have information that would be of benefit to management. I think Aaron Clarey once did a video saying basically this.

Im suspecting that this is largely due to increasing number of women in the work place.

This actually happened at my work 1 year ago. A girl at my pharmacy ghosted the employer after she almost had an accident on the road. She didn't tell anyone she was quitting, just that she almost got in an accident. Left work then didn't come back or return texts or calls. Kept her pay (she was paid a week ahead). The boss was also a woman that hires mostly women. She was annoyed but didn't do anything. Half the women just get fed up and quit like a boss. I imagine it's the same world over.

Honestly I think this is just more "blame millenials" scaremongering.

If I were some 22-year-old with 40k in debt working some shit job with no chance of career growth, I'd find a new job and begin immediately while ghosting on my former boss.

If the previous generation wants the millenials to respect traditional workplace culture they could start by not mistreating their workforce. Everything is give-take, but many bosses only see it as take-take and then throw a temper tantrum when their best employees ghost on them or leave with absolutely no ear towards remaining for more money.

People have dignity and when that isn't respected people stop giving a fuck.

What's the downside? Can't get references from AssHairTrimmersCorp? Oh no!

I've had jobs that I absolutely hated but I gave them notice and did a proper hand-off because I was always treated well. It isn't rocket science.

I think the majority of people who have really gotten fucked by employers, particularly by the large corporations we all hate, are the more loyal, older generation of workers, many who have gotten unceremoniously canned after 15-20+ years of service. They are the ones who should be mad, not young people. Ghosting is almost exclusively a millenial phenomenon.

At my small company, we've had a number of interviewees completely ghost on us, plus another fat slob recent grad who ghosted on us after three weeks. All males. And we are an excellent, caring company to work for.

Tons of work goes into scheduling interviews, choosing candidates, onboarding employees, training, finding replacements, etc. It's super disrespectful, dehumanizing, and cowardly, just like it is in the dating world. Even before I knew what went on behind the scenes at businesses, I would never think of doing something so disrespectful to an employer. Texting and social media have made it easy for people to avoid uncomfortable real-life situations at all costs. Now people are becoming too socially awkward and cowardly to even hit "send" on an email that says "This position is not a good fit for me, I'm leaving". Or even just a lie that at least gives the business some time to deal with the loss! Pathetic.

The exact cause(s) of the problem is up for debate, but trends like this make it clear as day that a huge percentage of millenials are total fucking pussies and have zero chance of being properly functioning adults. God help them in 20-30 years.

Quote:
"And we are an excellent, caring company to work for."

The above is the exception, not the rule.

Quote: (02-07-2019 01:19 PM)Parzival Wrote:  

In Germany we have the term "internal resignation"

Interesting.
I had never heard of that term before.
Seen it several times though

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innere_K%C3%BCndigung

Quote: (02-07-2019 11:13 AM)Akwesi Wrote:  

I remember an American ex who actually gave notice and then promptly got fired. There's something about that kind of asshole move that just seems crazy from a Scandinavian point of view. I do realize easier to fire means easier to hire, but still...

Happened to me once. I gave my notice for a job that was aware I was leaving at some point and they said you're all done right now and I was out the door with my last check in 10 minutes. They had the nerve to call me the next week because they couldn't figure out how to do one of the many things I did and I told them to go pound sand. They ended up having to hire two people to replace me, paid them both more than I was getting and they still lost 25% of their business because customers got tired of everything getting screwed up.

I had a job paying just over min wage (UK). I wasn't happy with it and the management above me were just dicking me around ebcause 2 chumps kept complaining. One shift I just said to myself "enough" and once I got home that evening I messaged the head manager telling him I am not coming in as I quit.

No 2 week notice or anything. I had to type up a letter stating my resignation and that was it. Turns out my position throughout the company had a terrible turnover.

I cant be assed dealing with people like them. Aint nobody got time for that!

Quote: (02-07-2019 12:03 PM)jeffreyjerpp Wrote:  

The average corporation does not give a flying fuck if their employees live or die. I am convinced there are plenty of executives and corporate boards who would literally kill their employees to raise the share price, or get a slightly larger bonus, and think nothing of it. Many are malicious, scheming opportunists and deserve nothing but contempt from honest working people.

I got recruited for a sales job a few years ago, on the basis that it was a minimum 20% raise from my current salary, with excellent room for growth.

When I got there, it was clear they had totally lied to me, and caused me to leave my previous job for this new one. When I brought up my concerns to the VP of Sales, he treated me with total contempt, barely containing his rage at the idea that I would question him. He clearly thought I should essentially be his slave, shut my mouth, and happily work for 65% of what I was promised.

"Ghosting" is honestly the mildest retribution these people deserve, for messing with people's lives like its nothing.

+1

I worked at a place that definitely white outed the pay they promised me the day I got hired. My supervisor was always curious as to when I was quitting my other job and once I did I got crapped on. There definitely is scheming going around even at the middle manager level. Another place I worked at my manager would insist I sign a legal document and being young I did it. Maybe it's bad luck on my part but just reading the replies on this thread it's systemic. As bad as some employers are that's why you always keep another one floating around.

Or better yet own your own business and pave your own way to riches.

From the perspective of a manager who's done lots of hiring, ghosting doesn't tell me that the company you worked for sucks and doesn't deserve respect. It tells me that you lack class, and can't be trusted.

Look, if your job sucks, give the 2 weeks notice and quit. It's not about them, it's about how you act in a shitty situation, it shows your character.

Just like if you realise your woman sucks, you break up with her. You don't ghost on her, you don't cheat on her. Those things are on you, not her.

Quote: (02-07-2019 06:39 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

From the perspective of a manager who's done lots of hiring, ghosting doesn't tell me that the company you worked for sucks and doesn't deserve respect. It tells me that you lack class, and can't be trusted.

Look, if your job sucks, give the 2 weeks notice and quit. It's not about them, it's about how you act in a shitty situation, it shows your character.

Just like if you realise your woman sucks, you break up with her. You don't ghost on her, you don't cheat on her. Those things are on you, not her.

I've also had two guys ghost on me as a manager. One I was happy because he was worse than useless, but the other I invested quite a lot in and it was a kick in the face.

A man from this forum should be able to stand face to face with their manager and tell them that they're leaving, especially if it's for a legitimate reason such as not holding up their end of the employment agreement. Having done it a few times it gets easier.

If you're in a small city or a niche field you absolutely can't ghost your employer. It will come back to bite you in the ass without you even knowing it.

I agree that there is a big problem with employers not showing enough respect for their employees, managers that do not know how to treat the people working under them and employers expecting employees to do more work for the same pay and benefits. I don't think employers should expect employees to answer emails after hours, dump work on them at the last minute on a Friday evening or generally disrespect their employees. I think employers should make good on their word and pay what has been promised and not doing so is utterly unacceptable. Getting job offers in writing is something a lot more people should do to remove any ambiguities.

Managing people is a very challenging job and most bosses and managers are not very good at it. Too often employees do get treated like chattel by their bosses. Office politics and favoritism is another huge problem for employees to deal with and this is usually the result of poor management by higher ups. In fact I'd say a lot of upper management people like the division that office politics creates as they like to employ a divide and conquer strategy in their company. Corporate environments are very often stifling and soul crushing no doubt.

All of that said, I will say that as a business owner that employs people, too many people are quite frankly terrible employees. A lot of people have terrible attitudes and are just unmanageable. I give a lot of respect to the people who work for me, I pay above market rate and I have a fun work environment and I'm flexible with my people. As long as the job is getting done, I give my employees flexibility in how they want to do their jobs. However, respect is a two way street and while I give a lot of respect, I expect it back in return. I want people that are happy and have good attitudes working for me and you know what? It's difficult to find these types of people. Everyone is so entitled these days and too often employees think they are owed the sun moon and stars from their employers. Even with the way I manage my employees, I still have to shut down the entitlement behavior I get from time to time. I expect people to work hard for me and not be lazy or take advantage of my generosity. I also expect people to play nice with others and not create trouble. I had a girl that worked for me for 10 years but I had to finally fire her because she got complacent and started taking advantage of me, not getting her work done, giving me and my clients (!) attitude. I have no doubt after I fired her, she went and told anyone and everyone about how I just canned her for no reason after 10 years of her loyalty and how cold and heartless I was for doing so.

I tell my kids that you will not get rich just by having a job. A job, a good job, a job that is part of a decent career will get you off to a good start but that alone will not get you to where you need to be (unless you become something like a plastic surgeon, or a Wall Street investment banker). Your work ethic, smarts and attitude on the job will translate into your private life and motivate you to find other ways of making money to supplement your employment income to the point where you can start to become wealthy. Too many people jump from job to job hoping to find a unicorn employer who will give annual 10% raises and who will just expect a bare minimal effort in exchange. I've had people ghost on me for job interviews, I've had people that I've contracted out to do some work for me just stop doing the work and ghost on me. It's awful. While some employers may suck ass, it's a shame that some people feel that ghosting is an acceptable way of conducting yourself in the work force as some juvenile way of sticking it to the man. People that have this attitude will end up struggling in anything they do and then blame everyone and everything else except what's staring at them in the mirror. Unfortunately, in all my years of dealing with all sorts of people, too many people are this way.

I've seen this happen a few times, but to be fair it was always the employee who was the inconsiderate (and/or mentally unstable) asshole. No way in hell that the employer deserved it, at least in those cases I witnessed.

Do you guys pay for Washington post ?

I see articles all the time on this forum from there and I can never read them when I go to the link. I’m curious as hell because it seems like the Washington post would be the last thing guys on the forum would pay for.

My crew: works in freezing weather all day/night. Other jobs pay about 20k less but you get to be home every night and eventually you make the same amount of money. Morale is low, boss makes sure our crew does the heavy work because he’s a perfectionist that doesn’t trust other crews, but stays in his truck and watches.

My boss “so a lot of folks in the crew have quit overnight or not bothered to show up. I’ve treated y’all well and I understand if you find a better opportunity so it’ll be nice to get a 2 weeks notice”

Me “so you’d give us a two weeks notice if we were to get laid off?”

Him....*crickets*

When I quit I plan on giving my to-day notice. As in, I’m leaving this bitch.....TODAY!

Some off y’all salty managers need to look in the mirror and ask yourselves why your employees ghost on you. Are you loyal to them? Most of the US is a right to work state so don’t be bitching. If y’all are so unimpressed with the work ethic maybe y’all should be doing job instead.

Quote: (02-07-2019 07:45 PM)LINUX Wrote:  

Do you guys pay for Washington post ?

I see articles all the time on this forum from there and I can never read them when I go to the link. I’m curious as hell because it seems like the Washington post would be the last thing guys on the forum would pay for.

Open in incognito mode and you can read as many articles as you want.

The "it's not classy to ghost" thing is true, but I think companies have been following the ancient tradition of "do unto others as you do unto shit" for way too long now. They can't keep heaping all the bullshit on the consumers and employees and then crying when things aren't as good as they used to be.

Every old person whines endlessly about millenials while sucking the country dry and leaving nothing for millenials to actually give a fuck about.

If we were talking about companies offering real benefits for their workloads then we wouldn't even be having these problems. People are so fucking lazy that if you give them decent benefits and didn't treat them like disposable drones they're bound to stay even if they're not happy.

We've gutted the unions and other ways of employee advocacy and bolstered the lobbies (I'm not sure why letting corporations dictate our policies is so beloved by the middle class) and this is what we get.

I'm not saying unions were faultless angels, but when you have such a power imbalance between employer and employee you are bound to see more and more weird shit like ghosting.

Honestly, the more I think about it the more I think ghosting is a delightfully annoying way to strike back at companies.

Imagine mass ghostings! An entire department quits as a massive fuck you to mid-sized company. The CEO commits sepukku the next day.

That would be like corporate guerilla warfare. Hit them right where it hurts; hit their coffers.

Employees telling companies to fuck off is more of what we need. The companies have voted away employee rights for too long with their dollars, so now employees get to vote "Fuck you" with their feet. I think this is fair.

Personally, I have only ghosted a job one time and it was immediately after telling them I would not comply with some new thing that was not in my contract. They got salty and threatened me by saying they'd withhold my paycheck.

Little did they know that I have a pretty decent reputation and could find work within a week.

They begged for me to return once they lost that game of chicken.

I refused and they still paid me what they owed.

Companies are often the cause of employees randomly leaving. Abusing and paying people less and less as inflation eats away at their money is not the way to inspire loyalty.

You can't expect fair play from desperate men if you are clearly crooked.

Quote: (02-07-2019 12:36 PM)mzp1 Wrote:  

The people saying you shouldnt do this dont get the point.

Workers should do everything they can to undermine the power employers have in certain situations.

Fake references all the time - references are bulshit anyway, everyone knows this, bulshit dates on CV to cover gaps. If emplyers see more people doing this they are less likely to check and soon will stop caring about employment gaps and such.

LinkedIN, CV, and references all allow employers greater power over employees as EVERYTHING IS RECORDED AND CAN COME BACK TO YOU AT ANY TIME - we need to undermine this process so employers dont get complacent but actually look for good candidates with skills and talents, rather than HR-based superficials like work history, employment gaps, references etc.

There are companies in the UK that can provide fake references - people have had very good results with this technique, which just shows HR is too keen to dispose of CVs for lacking work history in areas they dont understand.

This references stuff has always made me perplex. In France they never ask for references. The only time someone asks is when it's UK recruiter agencies that tries to steal my clients. They lurk on the French freelance websites, try to dangle a carrot in front of you but "hey, by the way please provide me at least 2 references". I always say to them "I give my references only to the final client, if he asks me". Of course I know they will never ask me, French companies don't do that.

With the very little contact I've had with anglosaxon companies, I'd have zero regret making them go bankrupt if it makes me earn $10 more. No pity.

I wonder how much of the rise in ghosting is driven by an increase of childless singles in the workforce.

It's easier to pull something like that when you don't have dependents to think about.

A couple of comments from me, I've worked in Corporate Finance at multibillion companies in the US..

Quote: (02-07-2019 01:28 PM)EvanWilson Wrote:  

1: Drug tests - No one use to care, except some jobs with security clearances or transport, now more and more companies somehow thinks drug testing everyone is a 'good idea' but seem to have no data or study to show the correlation between drug testing and job performance.

[I've only been drug tested once in over 10 years in the US]

2: Credit Checks - So now people who need a job to pay their bills, and are probably behind if they have been out of work for a while and have their credit ruined, may be not hired. In some states, credit checks are not allowed and again, companies seem to have no data or study to show the correlation between drug testing and job performance.

[Never had a credit check as far as I know, but most companies do background check on your to verify employment and education]

3: Personality Tests - God I HATE the Myers-Briggs assessment test. I have had a number of places give this to me in the recent transition. As a general rule, things like these tests and assessments seem to run in 5 to 10 year cycles, where they are in vogue for a while, and then companies stop using them as they realize they are spending money for nothing. Jordan Peterson reports that the correlation with things like Myers-Briggs is like .2 or .25, you square that so the test predicts only 4% or 5% of the performance and it only predicts within a certain range of managers. So you have companies spending something like $10 per test to evaluate people, per every test, and it can't even predict anything. And of course, the companies never are allowed to get the ability to score the tests themselves so the companies selling these test have lock on scoring and reporting the results.

[These were common in the UK about 15 years ago, and I fucking hated them - I've never done one in the US. Myers-Briggs test was only taken as a port of some training, after I was already employed by the company]

4: Hand writing tests - This appears to be out of favor at the moment, but in some past cycle companies would send out a sample of hand writing for an 'analysis'. Of course, I do not think there is ANY correlation between a sample of hand writing and job performance, but companies did it anyways.

[Never done one, and these are stupid now anyway. A lot of people's handwriting has degraded massively over time due to keyboard use. I write almost exclusively in capital letters because I can barely read my own writing if I write in lower case. When I was a kid I had great handwriting.]

5: Microsoft Excel test and Accounting tests - Things appear to be so bad in the work force, that I have been asked several times, prior to coming in to present, to take a short Excel or Accounting test. I have 20 years experience, an IT background plus MBA and MSF degrees, but the companies 'need to make sure' I can use Excel and know if COGS is usually has a credit or debit balance?!?!?!?
I have even had people ask me accounting questions after the end of presentation.

[I'm currently hiring right now for a corporate finance role, and we do a surprise EXCEL test for candidates - nearly all of the candidates fuck up the test somehow, even CPAs with over 10 years of experience ]

6: Phone Recorded interviews - I refuse to do these. I did one ONCE. A recording asks you a question and then you have minute or so to answer. If they want me to answer a question, get on the phone with me and talk with me!

[Never heard of these]

Quote: (02-07-2019 06:39 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

From the perspective of a manager who's done lots of hiring, ghosting doesn't tell me that the company you worked for sucks and doesn't deserve respect. It tells me that you lack class, and can't be trusted.

Look, if your job sucks, give the 2 weeks notice and quit. It's not about them, it's about how you act in a shitty situation, it shows your character.

Just like if you realise your woman sucks, you break up with her. You don't ghost on her, you don't cheat on her. Those things are on you, not her.

In the UK it's a 4 week notice period. At some companies, once you resign, they don't fire you, they just ask you to not come in for the remainder of your notice period. I don't see anything wrong with that, actually you get a few weeks off. I always take off a week or two between jobs.

In all the US firms I've worked at, anyone who quit wasn't kicked out of the building, they were asked to stick around to transition work and they were given a leaving meal or drinks.

I personally have never come across any ghosting. I did have one candidate accept an offer and agree to start with us, but she bailed on us the day before she was due to start. It was embarrassing for the recruiting team because they sent out an email to everyone in the company welcoming her.

Not all managers are arseholes, my current one actually increased my bonus % when I gave myself a lower percentage.

Quote: (02-08-2019 02:39 AM)pijamaboy Wrote:  

This references stuff has always made me perplex. In France they never ask for references. The only time someone asks is when it's UK recruiter agencies that tries to steal my clients. They lurk on the French freelance websites, try to dangle a carrot in front of you but "hey, by the way please provide me at least 2 references". I always say to them "I give my references only to the final client, if he asks me". Of course I know they will never ask me, French companies don't do that.

References are common in the US, and legally , they only have to give your start/end dates and your final title at the company. If somebody giving a reference causes you to be turned down for a job, you can sue them, so most companies only give the bare minimum. However, a company make ask for phone numbers of previous manager so they can talk to them.

While many employers are irredeemably shitty and deserve retribution from disgruntled employees, the article is somewhat correct in the way that it hints at millennial aimlessness in both life and the job market that leads to unexplained cases of ghosting.

For example, the last case of employee vanishing that I witnessed was a late 20s girl from the IT department who one day just didn't show up, didn't give up any notice and no one could reach her to find out what was going on with her. She was a bit of a fattie, but otherwise a nice and normal person with a normal family and boyfriend that some of us had even met.

After a week of ghosting, she reappeared as if nothing had happened. Was she sick, we asked her? Her reply: "Oh no, I just didn't feel like it."

Our manager had a chat with her in which he expressed his willingness to put the past behind and continue working with her, and she expressed her desire to continue working, saying she liked the job and there were no problems.

She worked for two more days before disappearing, never to be heard from again.

I also had a millennial friend who used to change his entire direction in life every few months, complete with significant financial investments into his "incredible" new path (funded by a small early inheritance). Within the span of a few years, he went from studying/working in audio to IT to art to politics to sociology to writing to manual labor to driving to sales, yet inevitably within a month or so he'd find a way to become disgruntled with it and ghost on the entire project. Why? "I just don't feel like."

The last I heard, he had quit everything in order to go study sustainable agriculture somewhere far away.

Quote: (02-08-2019 02:39 AM)pijamaboy Wrote:  

This references stuff has always made me perplex. In France they never ask for references. The only time someone asks is when it's UK recruiter agencies that tries to steal my clients. They lurk on the French freelance websites, try to dangle a carrot in front of you but "hey, by the way please provide me at least 2 references". I always say to them "I give my references only to the final client, if he asks me". Of course I know they will never ask me, French companies don't do that.

With the very little contact I've had with anglosaxon companies, I'd have zero regret making them go bankrupt if it makes me earn $10 more. No pity.

France is very left-wing in that aspect.

For instance in the german-speaking world the employer writes about the employee in the work certificate you get when leaving.
Supposedly there are even some "codes" so that they can write shit about you without it being obvious to you (what a great system, yay !).

In France this is simply illegal, because we know too many people would write shit even if everything went fine (because crab mentality), so your work certificate only mentions dates, name, position, and that's it basically.
So when looking for work in the german-speaking world you are at a disadvantage : to them your almost-empty work certificates look extremely suspicious.

Also french companies mostly never ask for references because they know the company you left would usually say shit about you ("they gave you a job and you left them, how dare you !", not totally unlike a stupid bitch "but I gave you access to my pussy !", as if it was everything there was to it ..).
They know this is what they would do themselves after you will have left them, so they don't bother.

In the rest of the world they often do ask for references, and yes it is a double-edged sword.
I find the whole thing a bit stupid, imagine you are dating a new girl and she wants to call two ex-girlfriends first ..

The consensus seems to be "shitty boss no notice, good boss give notice".

Pretty simple really.

Quote: (02-08-2019 05:44 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

The consensus seems to be "shitty boss no notice, good boss give notice".

Pretty simple really.

Ghosting still seems a bit childish to me, unless you have a great offer already waiting and are pulling the trigger at the last moment.

I have yet to hear of a case where an employee put himself at a real disadvantage by just saying he quits or giving notice rather than ghosting, aside from assuaging their ego.

Giving official notice to a shitty employer may not feel as satisfying as just disappearing, but when concerning non-emotional issues like money, lawsuits, future opportunities and burnt bridges, I don't see the upside of simply disappearing.