Do you have any kids, Enigma?
Drug Policy
I have around 5+ years being around addicts after addicts after addicts.
First thing that needs to happen is they need to be separated.
Criminal Addict: These guys are more criminal than addict. They just happen to be addicted to the drugs and even more so the lifestyle.
Addict Criminal: More addict than criminal but have a few things on their record but mainly to get more drugs.
Addict: Addict that may have the money and resources to get the drugs without resorting to crime or have a legal means to get the drug.
The criminal addicts are fucking scum first and foremost.
The addict criminal and addict are pretty similar and it's where you can find a solid amount decent or good people. Changing the drug policy will help the addict criminal and addicts.
First thing that needs to happen. Drinking age dropped to 18, marijuana legalized and regulated like cigarettes(can buy either prepackaged or loose). Set a law for anything over an ounce(some form of +/- due to scale differences) as delivery without proper licencing to delivery marijuana. Without that license you do a mandatory minimum of 5 with a year added for each ounce over the first one.
Cocaine: Legalize and tax. Can be sold in larger quantities in leaves and smaller is powder and crack. Same laws for delivery as marijuana but different quantities.
Meth: Go back to selling amphetamines in stores.
Heroine and Opiates: Fuck all these drugs. Heroine is the only drug that should not be legalized. Opiates should be controlled heavily and rarely prescribed. If caught with any amount of these there needs to be an immediate placement to detox and undergo emotional therapy.
Opiates have all exploded recently. If someone is addicted to heroine its usually deeper than the addiction. I think the use has skyrocketed due to the closed off society we have in the West. No real connection, depressed, have an event in the past they didn't get over.
Opiates is what these people use, then they use other drugs. Drugs just to feel something, to escape whatever the issue is. That's the emotional component. Then the drugs are addictive as fuck themselves then they have hell of withdrawal symptoms. These people first need the physical withdrawal to end. Once that happens they need therapy for the emotional problems not for the drug problems.
Once all this happens there needs to be changes in laws to hammer any addicts committing crimes such as Larceny, Home Invision, Assault, etc.
This overall may not reduce addicts but it will stop us wasting as many jail, court, law enforcement resources on people caught with small possession of drugs.
First thing that needs to happen is they need to be separated.
Criminal Addict: These guys are more criminal than addict. They just happen to be addicted to the drugs and even more so the lifestyle.
Addict Criminal: More addict than criminal but have a few things on their record but mainly to get more drugs.
Addict: Addict that may have the money and resources to get the drugs without resorting to crime or have a legal means to get the drug.
The criminal addicts are fucking scum first and foremost.
The addict criminal and addict are pretty similar and it's where you can find a solid amount decent or good people. Changing the drug policy will help the addict criminal and addicts.
First thing that needs to happen. Drinking age dropped to 18, marijuana legalized and regulated like cigarettes(can buy either prepackaged or loose). Set a law for anything over an ounce(some form of +/- due to scale differences) as delivery without proper licencing to delivery marijuana. Without that license you do a mandatory minimum of 5 with a year added for each ounce over the first one.
Cocaine: Legalize and tax. Can be sold in larger quantities in leaves and smaller is powder and crack. Same laws for delivery as marijuana but different quantities.
Meth: Go back to selling amphetamines in stores.
Heroine and Opiates: Fuck all these drugs. Heroine is the only drug that should not be legalized. Opiates should be controlled heavily and rarely prescribed. If caught with any amount of these there needs to be an immediate placement to detox and undergo emotional therapy.
Opiates have all exploded recently. If someone is addicted to heroine its usually deeper than the addiction. I think the use has skyrocketed due to the closed off society we have in the West. No real connection, depressed, have an event in the past they didn't get over.
Opiates is what these people use, then they use other drugs. Drugs just to feel something, to escape whatever the issue is. That's the emotional component. Then the drugs are addictive as fuck themselves then they have hell of withdrawal symptoms. These people first need the physical withdrawal to end. Once that happens they need therapy for the emotional problems not for the drug problems.
Once all this happens there needs to be changes in laws to hammer any addicts committing crimes such as Larceny, Home Invision, Assault, etc.
This overall may not reduce addicts but it will stop us wasting as many jail, court, law enforcement resources on people caught with small possession of drugs.
I haven't listened to Peter Tosh in a long time. Great artist.
Quote: (09-06-2016 08:47 PM)Ghost Tiger Wrote:
Quote: (09-06-2016 04:35 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:
Again -- good faith -- of course it would be better to have a tight-knit set of neighbors we all trust around us, and for us all to watch out for each-others' kids. But it's not a perfect world, so I have to take the negatives into account as well.
Fair enough. My argument is that legalizing illicit drugs would make them more abundant and raise the risk to my child (I have a 15 year old daughter) as well as all the village children. So just as I am passionately pro-life, I am also passionately anti-legalization. I am my brother's keeper. And guardian of his children.
Your 15 year old can get Heroin shipped right to her house in 2-3 days.
Download TOR and go check out this website Alphabay for a bit. pwoah7foa6au2pul.onion
Keeping drugs illegal at this point is ridiculous. It's easier than ever to get anything and everything that you could possibly want with a click of a button in this day in age.
My view on the subject is, do whatever you want. If you want to shoot up heroin or smoke crack, then that's your life and I won't be the one to try and stop you from wasting it. The minute that person robs or assaults another person to get money for their fix is when the hammer needs to drop. Harsh punishments for violent crimes.
I smoke the occasional joint, snort the occasional line, and I love psychedelics. I don't enjoy being told by other people that the things I do should be illegal and I should face possible jail time because their kids might end up hooked on something. That's not my problem.
Legal firearms make kids more likely to have access to guns. Doesn't mean other people's freedoms should be limited to protect your kids.
People just need to admit that they have an emotional bias against drugs. There's nothing wrong with that. I live in a place where drug users are killed by the thousands, and I haven't touched any drugs whatsoever in three years. I rarely even drink.
But as an American conservative, I don't see why someone should be able to smoke tobacco, drink hops, take medication, own a gun, have freedom of speech, etc. and not be able to smoke weed in their living room.
Statistically you should be a lot more worried than drunk and/or terrible drivers than potheads. Yet we still let smartphone addicted 16-year-old girls get licensed to drive a hunk of metal 60+ mph, at which speeds a small jerk of the wheel can easily kill her and others.
Also, as I pointed out in my last post, separating the legal and illegal drug users through licensing and restrictions would allow you to go after the illegal users harder. This means anyone who buys or sells drugs without (or to someone without) a license.
If someone gives drugs to a kid, give them a huge prison sentence. No one is going to be exposing your kids to drugs if it's a mandatory 10+ years behind bars. If someone sells drugs to someone who is not legally able to buy (violent felon, welfare recipient, etc.) give them a huge fine or prison sentence. Again, no licensed drug user is going to risk it.
And you can go after the illegal drug dealers very hard and very effectively.
On another note, I don't necessarily think all drugs should be legal. Marijuana should be. Probably cocaine, mushrooms, and some of the less serious stuff. Things like heroine and ketamine I would be okay with staying illegal. Certain things I'm on the fence about. I could see the argument both ways for something like LSD.
People just need to admit that they have an emotional bias against drugs. There's nothing wrong with that. I live in a place where drug users are killed by the thousands, and I haven't touched any drugs whatsoever in three years. I rarely even drink.
But as an American conservative, I don't see why someone should be able to smoke tobacco, drink hops, take medication, own a gun, have freedom of speech, etc. and not be able to smoke weed in their living room.
Statistically you should be a lot more worried than drunk and/or terrible drivers than potheads. Yet we still let smartphone addicted 16-year-old girls get licensed to drive a hunk of metal 60+ mph, at which speeds a small jerk of the wheel can easily kill her and others.
Also, as I pointed out in my last post, separating the legal and illegal drug users through licensing and restrictions would allow you to go after the illegal users harder. This means anyone who buys or sells drugs without (or to someone without) a license.
If someone gives drugs to a kid, give them a huge prison sentence. No one is going to be exposing your kids to drugs if it's a mandatory 10+ years behind bars. If someone sells drugs to someone who is not legally able to buy (violent felon, welfare recipient, etc.) give them a huge fine or prison sentence. Again, no licensed drug user is going to risk it.
And you can go after the illegal drug dealers very hard and very effectively.
On another note, I don't necessarily think all drugs should be legal. Marijuana should be. Probably cocaine, mushrooms, and some of the less serious stuff. Things like heroine and ketamine I would be okay with staying illegal. Certain things I'm on the fence about. I could see the argument both ways for something like LSD.
Quote:Quote:
I smoke the occasional joint, snort the occasional line, and I love psychedelics. I don't enjoy being told by other people that the things I do should be illegal and I should face possible jail time because their kids might end up hooked on something. That's not my problem.
My replies will be many ways to say the same thing.
The nicest way is to say, "You're expecting the community to protect you in the form of both the police and the military, but you don't want to look out for our children. So why should we look out for you?"
Less nice, "I hope you have the courage to say those words in public so that you can be monitored by the police."
Least nice, "You're stuck in the teenage phase of moral development and have some growing up to do."
I don't mind admitting my emotional bias against drugs.
When I think of marijuana, I don't imagine a man's man, nor a role model. I imagine a baby girl inside of a man's body, who should be wearing diapers to complete the look.
When I think of cocaine, I think of the Wolf of Wall Street. But I also think of the inevitable bankruptcy that cocaine will cause, and the probable (meaning guaranteed, when run in large numbers) robbery that will happen.
When I think of alcohol, I remember what one of my professors said - that the intoxication power of alcohol, divided by its weight and volume - is very low, which is why we believe we can regulate it. Our belief that we can regulate it convinces us to legalize it. (With the other drugs, the intoxication power divided by weight or volume is much, much higher - which convinces many that we can't regulate such drugs.)
When I think of mushrooms, I think of mental illness. Some weird mofo who thinks he's exploring the depths of the universe, but doesn't make any sense. He's harmless, but should be institutionalized.
When I think of heroin, I think of MS-13, AIDS, and dead mofos through hot shots. I also think of people who will never ever never amount to anything, because they chose heroin over the other drugs.
I've similar images when I think of meth, but fewer gang images and more images of exploding houses. Meth, also, produces someone who'll never ever amount to anything.
When I think of marijuana, I don't imagine a man's man, nor a role model. I imagine a baby girl inside of a man's body, who should be wearing diapers to complete the look.
When I think of cocaine, I think of the Wolf of Wall Street. But I also think of the inevitable bankruptcy that cocaine will cause, and the probable (meaning guaranteed, when run in large numbers) robbery that will happen.
When I think of alcohol, I remember what one of my professors said - that the intoxication power of alcohol, divided by its weight and volume - is very low, which is why we believe we can regulate it. Our belief that we can regulate it convinces us to legalize it. (With the other drugs, the intoxication power divided by weight or volume is much, much higher - which convinces many that we can't regulate such drugs.)
When I think of mushrooms, I think of mental illness. Some weird mofo who thinks he's exploring the depths of the universe, but doesn't make any sense. He's harmless, but should be institutionalized.
When I think of heroin, I think of MS-13, AIDS, and dead mofos through hot shots. I also think of people who will never ever never amount to anything, because they chose heroin over the other drugs.
I've similar images when I think of meth, but fewer gang images and more images of exploding houses. Meth, also, produces someone who'll never ever amount to anything.
As I've said in every single thread when this comes up, you cannot significantly curtail demand by passing a law. Prohibition never works and only adds significant elements of risk for people who partake in the banned substance. History on this is quite clear. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.
The government can't do a goddamn thing to stop people using drugs, any more than it could stop people drinking during Prohibition. It can act to make things safer for people who use drugs, or do what it's doing now and make things much worse.
The government can't do a goddamn thing to stop people using drugs, any more than it could stop people drinking during Prohibition. It can act to make things safer for people who use drugs, or do what it's doing now and make things much worse.
Just imagine how many people toddlers will kill with guns after they take their first bong hit. The humanity! Hillary 2016
Quote: (10-31-2016 02:33 AM)Enigma Wrote:
Quote: (10-31-2016 12:28 AM)MMX2010 Wrote:
I don't mind admitting my emotional bias against drugs.
Making arguments based on emotion and insults, trying to limit other people's rights because they hurt your feelings.
Sounds like SJW logic to me.
SJWs are the physically weakest, most emotionally fragile, least productive, and least reproductive forms of humans ever. Even castrated slaves arguably win three of the four categories over SJWs.
Now every Spocklike nerd would predict that SJWs would never acquire any power, and would never win anything. And every nerd who made that prediction is fucking wrong. Not kinda wrong. Not wrong-but-that-wrongness-doesn't-reveal-anything-important-about-me. Really fucking wrong. Wrong in a way that inspires alcoholism and soul-searching. So wrong you should stop making political opinions for six months and go to confessional. Or maybe join a self-flaggelating religious order.
That kind of wrong.
If your logic and tactics had accomplished anything noteworthy in the last thirty years, I would consider using them. But they haven't, so I won't.
This is RVF, not Twitter.
If you can't discuss your ideas with like-minded men without emotionally-charged rhetoric and personal insults, it just means your ideas aren't worth a shit.
But at least we know that your current meltdown isn't drug related.
If you can't discuss your ideas with like-minded men without emotionally-charged rhetoric and personal insults, it just means your ideas aren't worth a shit.
But at least we know that your current meltdown isn't drug related.
LOL this thread is still going? Just let it go. He clearly has some deep-seated psychological reason to profess that position in that manner. Just read back through his posts in this thread, where he's outright saying he's not going to be reasonable. I'm guessing something terrible and drug-related happened to a childhood friend or relative of his. He's using this thread as an indirect emotional outlet of that and there's no point wrestling with him. The thread already has all the good arguments stated, any on-the-fence reader would be able to make up their mind pretty easily on this issue I think. If no new substantive point is being produced by the debate (or lack thereof) there's no point re-energizing it.
He's a gamma, so to feel like he is 'above' the rest of us, he builds up a dark fantasy image of drug users and alcoholics in his brain. (he doesn't know what it's really like as he was never invited to try).
Also using silly emotional arguments and admitting you're using 'shock troll' tactics, turned this interesting subject into a seriously annoying thread.
Also using silly emotional arguments and admitting you're using 'shock troll' tactics, turned this interesting subject into a seriously annoying thread.
"Especially Roosh offers really good perspectives. But like MW said, at the end of the day, is he one of us?"
- Reciproke, posted on the Roosh V Forum.
Great post realologist. A couple questions...
Secondly, why regulate at all? I suppose regulating some drugs, but why weed? I've never understood that.
I agree these drugs are way over-prescribed, but I have family who are nurses, who obviously have a problem with over-prescribed opiates, and they tell me there are plenty of cases where normal pain relievers, even weed now simply doesn't work. I have a friend who who was just on them for 5 days post-surgery out of necessity.
Overall, I'd say legalize everything. I mean, after weed and some of those stimulants, I don't really care, I just don't understand why not. It'll never happen, because the majority of people don't use them, so they think "why legalize?". Then there are people who work with addicts or know addicts and see the horrible effects of addiction and think it should be illegal/restricted. Then there's only a very tiny fraction of people like me, William F. Buckley guys, nerdy analyst types, who know there's not really great evidence that we'd be better or worse off with or without regulation of any of these.
Again, I could see restricting evil opiates, but I also don't think "oh that's crazy".
Quote: (10-29-2016 05:10 PM)realologist Wrote:5 years for over an ounce? That seems really steep. I'm picturing making a lifelong criminal out of a guy for carrying 1.5 ounces of marijuana scratching my head.
...marijuana legalized and regulated...Set a law for anything over an ounce...you do a mandatory minimum of 5 with a year added for each ounce over the first one.
...
Secondly, why regulate at all? I suppose regulating some drugs, but why weed? I've never understood that.
Quote: (10-29-2016 05:10 PM)realologist Wrote:
Heroine and Opiates: Fuck all these drugs. Heroine is the only drug that should not be legalized. Opiates should be controlled heavily and rarely prescribed.
I agree these drugs are way over-prescribed, but I have family who are nurses, who obviously have a problem with over-prescribed opiates, and they tell me there are plenty of cases where normal pain relievers, even weed now simply doesn't work. I have a friend who who was just on them for 5 days post-surgery out of necessity.
Overall, I'd say legalize everything. I mean, after weed and some of those stimulants, I don't really care, I just don't understand why not. It'll never happen, because the majority of people don't use them, so they think "why legalize?". Then there are people who work with addicts or know addicts and see the horrible effects of addiction and think it should be illegal/restricted. Then there's only a very tiny fraction of people like me, William F. Buckley guys, nerdy analyst types, who know there's not really great evidence that we'd be better or worse off with or without regulation of any of these.
Again, I could see restricting evil opiates, but I also don't think "oh that's crazy".
“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.”
Quote: (11-01-2016 04:25 PM)heavy Wrote:
Great post realologist. A couple questions...
Quote: (10-29-2016 05:10 PM)realologist Wrote:5 years for over an ounce? That seems really steep. I'm picturing making a lifelong criminal out of a guy for carrying 1.5 ounces of marijuana scratching my head.
...marijuana legalized and regulated...Set a law for anything over an ounce...you do a mandatory minimum of 5 with a year added for each ounce over the first one.
...
Secondly, why regulate at all? I suppose regulating some drugs, but why weed? I've never understood that.
Not saying heavy regulation but something similar to what they have for cigarettes. The reason for an ounce is any amount more than that to have on you at one is pretty much used for delivery instead of use. Now I mean this per person. So if you have a car full of 4 people and 4 ounces in the car you are good.
Quote: (10-29-2016 05:10 PM)realologist Wrote:
Heroine and Opiates: Fuck all these drugs. Heroine is the only drug that should not be legalized. Opiates should be controlled heavily and rarely prescribed.
Quote:Quote:
I agree these drugs are way over-prescribed, but I have family who are nurses, who obviously have a problem with over-prescribed opiates, and they tell me there are plenty of cases where normal pain relievers, even weed now simply doesn't work. I have a friend who who was just on them for 5 days post-surgery out of necessity.
Overall, I'd say legalize everything. I mean, after weed and some of those stimulants, I don't really care, I just don't understand why not. It'll never happen, because the majority of people don't use them, so they think "why legalize?". Then there are people who work with addicts or know addicts and see the horrible effects of addiction and think it should be illegal/restricted. Then there's only a very tiny fraction of people like me, William F. Buckley guys, nerdy analyst types, who know there's not really great evidence that we'd be better or worse off with or without regulation of any of these.
Again, I could see restricting evil opiates, but I also don't think "oh that's crazy".
Surgery is one of the cases where I think it should be prescribed but only in 7 day doses at max so it is very difficult for people to build a physical dependency unless some red flags are raised by attempting to fill scripts early, trying to continue to get refills after physical pain should be gone.
I don't get the opiate hate.
I've been prescribed opiates a few times. Once was for a broken bone. The other times were for nasty throat infections. I didn't get addicted and can say that having the opiates available vastly improved my quality of life. There was one occasion where my doctor wouldn't prescribe them to me and the result was just me being miserable for two days. Totally pointless. Why should my access to drugs that improve my quality of life when I'm sick or injured be restricted because other people can't handle their shit?
I've been prescribed opiates a few times. Once was for a broken bone. The other times were for nasty throat infections. I didn't get addicted and can say that having the opiates available vastly improved my quality of life. There was one occasion where my doctor wouldn't prescribe them to me and the result was just me being miserable for two days. Totally pointless. Why should my access to drugs that improve my quality of life when I'm sick or injured be restricted because other people can't handle their shit?
Good response real...I suppose you're right about the ounce rule compared to cigarettes...I would have had no idea what that limit would have been, and actually, I don't really know what an ounce of weed is.
Things like this broaden my view of the matter. I've heard people call in on the morning radio show here, construction workers, who say they pop opiates everyday because of pain and no one would ever know.
(it's a short video clip)
Seems weird to me, but I appreciate the alternate cultural view..."drugs aren't evil". My only issue is totally disregarding alternative viewpoints on the matter as if they don't exist (not saying you are in that camp). I understand saying, "yes, but I still feel the downsides of legal heroin etc outweigh the upsides presented in that video". I can't stand people just disregarding any and all evidence that opiate use can be a good thing for some people, even outside of acute pain.
Things like this broaden my view of the matter. I've heard people call in on the morning radio show here, construction workers, who say they pop opiates everyday because of pain and no one would ever know.
(it's a short video clip)
Seems weird to me, but I appreciate the alternate cultural view..."drugs aren't evil". My only issue is totally disregarding alternative viewpoints on the matter as if they don't exist (not saying you are in that camp). I understand saying, "yes, but I still feel the downsides of legal heroin etc outweigh the upsides presented in that video". I can't stand people just disregarding any and all evidence that opiate use can be a good thing for some people, even outside of acute pain.
“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.”
Quote: (10-31-2016 03:22 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:
Quote: (10-31-2016 11:12 AM)MMX2010 Wrote:
If your logic and tactics had accomplished anything noteworthy in the last thirty years
Like the war on drugs...
The war on drugs has perpetuated the position that drugs should be illegal. Therefore, it has accomplished something.
Quote: (10-31-2016 01:14 PM)Enigma Wrote:
This is RVF, not Twitter.
If you can't discuss your ideas with like-minded men without emotionally-charged rhetoric and personal insults, it just means your ideas aren't worth a shit.
But at least we know that your current meltdown isn't drug related.
Let's put it this way. You want drugs to be legalized. So does realologist.
Realologist is infinitely more convincing with his pro-legalization arguments than you are. And he doesn't resort to any snark. Nor does he accuse those who disagree with him of being just like SJWs, nor of wrongfully using emotionally charged rhetoric.
So if everyone who wanted drugs to be legalized modeled themselves after realologist, you might have had legalized drugs years ago.
Quote: (11-03-2016 04:01 PM)MMX2010 Wrote:
Quote: (10-31-2016 03:22 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:
Quote: (10-31-2016 11:12 AM)MMX2010 Wrote:
If your logic and tactics had accomplished anything noteworthy in the last thirty years
Like the war on drugs...
The war on drugs has perpetuated the position that drugs should be illegal. Therefore, it has accomplished something.
That's some circular logic right there. It makes absolutely no sense. Let's forget about all the many lives destroyed, people murdered, and communities torn apart as an indirect result of the war on drugs. Oh and lets not forget BILLIONS OF DOLLARS.
"Does PUA say that I just need to get to f-close base first here and some weird chemicals will be released in her brain to make her a better person?"
-Wonitis
Quote: (11-03-2016 04:05 PM)MMX2010 Wrote:
Quote: (10-31-2016 01:14 PM)Enigma Wrote:
This is RVF, not Twitter.
If you can't discuss your ideas with like-minded men without emotionally-charged rhetoric and personal insults, it just means your ideas aren't worth a shit.
But at least we know that your current meltdown isn't drug related.
Let's put it this way. You want drugs to be legalized. So does realologist.
Realologist is infinitely more convincing with his pro-legalization arguments than you are. And he doesn't resort to any snark. Nor does he accuse those who disagree with him of being just like SJWs, nor of wrongfully using emotionally charged rhetoric.
So if everyone who wanted drugs to be legalized modeled themselves after realologist, you might have had legalized drugs years ago.
So you didn't say captain_shane had the moral development of a teenager, that people who smoke weed are little girls who wear diapers, and that your arguments are based on emotion?
Not only that, you admitted that you were relying on rhetoric in your response to my post.
Quote:MMX2010 Wrote:
If your logic and tactics had accomplished anything noteworthy in the last thirty years, I would consider using them. But they haven't, so I won't.
Now you're backpedaling because people called you on your bullshit.
Drug policy will almost always lead to emotional charged debates just because almost everyone knows somebody or has a family member that has been negatively effected by drug/alcohol use.Now to turn this thread in a different direction.
Would anybody change any of their current drug use if certain drugs were legalized/decriminalized?
Would anybody change any of their current drug use if certain drugs were legalized/decriminalized?
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