I was having a disagreement with a buddy of mine on how the laws of age of consent impact US Citizens in foreign countries, so I'd like some help from the board to make sure I am clear on this law.

Here is the law:

"The Protect Act of 2003 prohibits U.S. citizens and legal residents from illicit sexual conduct including commercial sex with anyone under 18, and non-commercial sex with persons under 16 when there is at least a four-year age difference or the person is under 12 years of age. The law applies even if the country in which the sexual acts take place has a lower age of consent."


Now, my understanding form above is this:

1. No US Citizen can have commercial sex (aka P4P sex) with anyone under 18 -- anywhere in the world!


2. When the girl is NOT A PRO (P4P), like a normal girl working as a hairstylist, even if the local age of consent is 15 in the country he visits, a US Citizen who is 21+ older, cannot have sex with her, or he risks being charged with statutory rape - even though teh local law is 15 for age of consent!

2a. A US citizen 21+ CAN LEGALLY HAVE SEX with a 16 year old if the age of consent of that country is at least 16. So, a 30 year-old man can have sex with a 16 year old girl so long as she is not a hooker, AND the local law of consent is at least 16.


Our disagreement was on point 2a.

Mixx

Based on the letter of the law as you posted it I would say that you are correct. Non-commercial sex means not P4P so if you're not paying for it it's legal to have sex with a 16 year-old as long as you're not violating any local age-of-consent laws.

My impression, based on the reading I've done on this topic, is that 2a is correct as written-if she is 16 or older, you're home-free. This does, in effect, make the non-commercial age of consent for any US citizen abroad 16 (assuming local laws do not specify a higher age).

What exactly are the viewpoints we're talking about here, though? What stance have you taken and what position is your friend taking against it?

Quote: (11-17-2011 04:09 PM)MiXX Wrote:  

2a. A US citizen 21+ CAN LEGALLY HAVE SEX with a 16 year old if the age of consent of that country is at least 16. So, a 30 year-old man can have sex with a 16 year old girl so long as she is not a hooker, AND the local law of consent is at least 16.

From what Wikipedia says, the law allows a 30 year old to sleep with a 16 year old, if the age of consent in that country is 16 or less.

You wrote "at least" 16, but I'm assuming you meant "at most." If the age of consent was 17, then a 30 year old man could not sleep with a 16 year old in that country.

The problem that can arise with a girl under the age of 16 is she makes up a story that she was paid. Happened to a friend in Costa Rica. While 2a is legal in most countries from my understanding it is best to stay on the safe side and go with 18+

Quote: (11-17-2011 04:49 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

Quote: (11-17-2011 04:09 PM)MiXX Wrote:  

2a. A US citizen 21+ CAN LEGALLY HAVE SEX with a 16 year old if the age of consent of that country is at least 16. So, a 30 year-old man can have sex with a 16 year old girl so long as she is not a hooker, AND the local law of consent is at least 16.

From what Wikipedia says, the law allows a 30 year old to sleep with a 16 year old, if the age of consent in that country is 16 or less.

You wrote "at least" 16, but I'm assuming you meant "at most." If the age of consent was 17, then a 30 year old man could not sleep with a 16 year old in that country.

Yup. That's what I meant.

So, I was right, I cannot be charged for statutory rape for having (consensual) sex with a non-pro girl who is 16 in Colombia or Canada or any country where the law allows it.


My buddy was (is) under the impression that she must be 18 no matter what the age of consent is for that country - regardless if she is a paid hooker, or a normal girl working at a beauty salon he kept debating me that it was 18 overseas.

That's what US laws do to men who truly do not have intentions on breaking the law, it scares you.


Mixx

Quote: (11-17-2011 04:48 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

What exactly are the viewpoints we're talking about here, though? What stance have you taken and what position is your friend taking against it?

He had (consensual) sex with a 16 year old girl in Colombia (non-pro) where the local age of consent law is 14.

He kept freaking out that he had committed a crime because it was overseas, and had me questioning myself for a bit there wondering if the local sheriff will come tumbling down his door at 4:00am one day.

Mixx

The concept of your country of birth having any legal jurisdiction about anything when you are in another country is completely insane.

As long as you dont break the laws of the country that you are in then it is of no business what the politicians in the country where you were born think about it.

Nor is it acceptable for your country of birth to tax you when you work abroad. Of the 194 countries in the world only 2 do this.

One of them is the USA predictably enough.

Can you Imagine how to explain to the whoever would govern this here that you thought you were shoring a semi-pro?

Quote: (11-17-2011 05:12 PM)MiXX Wrote:  

Quote: (11-17-2011 04:48 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

What exactly are the viewpoints we're talking about here, though? What stance have you taken and what position is your friend taking against it?

He had (consensual) sex with a 16 year old girl in Colombia (non-pro) where the local age of consent law is 14.

He kept freaking out that he had committed a crime because it was overseas, and had me questioning myself for a bit there wondering if the local sheriff will come tumbling down his door at 4:00am one day.

Mixx

This is clear paranoia, though given the way American men are socialized it is to be expected these days.

I'm with Lumiere on the lunacy of this whole concept. Unless you are some sort of celebrity with a very high profile and the ability to draw a lot of attention to yourself just by being you, how exactly is the law going to reach out this far and find you (prove statutory rape occured overseas, prove girl was underaged, get her testimony, etc)? America barely has the resources to police itself. Unless you are a big-fish of the Julian Assange variety, they're not going to go out of their way to police you everywhere else as well.

Now, the biggest threat I can see for a normal guy would involve the girl trying to do him in by going to the embassy or something and a) filing a report of statutory rape or b) claiming that the foreigner paid her while she was under 18.

Even this is kind of a stretch. How many run-of-the mill 15-17 year olds in any given developing country have the knowledge of US law, the finances (to hire/consult a lawyer) and the general wherewithal to pursue something like this and nail an American?

The risk is there, but it shouldn't keep you up at night if you use some basic caution. If you're in a developed country like Canada or France with a low age of consent, scenario b shouldn't even be a concern for you given the rarity of child prostitution. Just make sure she's over 16 and have at it.

If you just keep the basics in your head, there isn't that much to worry about. If you can just make sure the girl is at least 16, you should be fine in 99% of cases. Even if you do somehow get duped by some 15 year old Colombiana, the chances of it coming back to haunt you are minimal. Don't go looking for trouble, but don't stay up fearing the coming Gestapo either.

That's what I like about these high school girls; I get older, they stay the same age

Wasn't this law bought into effect because of the sick paedophiles going to Asia to do there nonsense.?

I did not know this law existed...
I guess me banging that 14-15 year old German chick last summer was illegal after all..

The USA is the only country in the world which prosecutes and taxes it's citizens even when they are outside its borders. I feel sorry for all guys born with U.S citizenship. If I were American, I'd grab an EU citizenship and then renounce my American citizenship for a green card instead.

Quote: (12-16-2011 10:45 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

Wasn't this law bought into effect because of the sick paedophiles going to Asia to do there nonsense.?

Pretty much. There was also some concern about men going to Latin America for the same purpose (there was plenty of child sex trafficking activity in some parts of Brazil, for example).

Quote: (12-17-2011 03:28 AM)P Dog Wrote:  

The USA is the only country in the world which prosecutes and taxes it's citizens even when they are outside its borders. I feel sorry for all guys born with U.S citizenship. If I were American, I'd grab an EU citizenship and then renounce my American citizenship for a green card instead.

From what I hear, renunciation is not an easy process, especially if you attempt to obtain a green card after the fact. Once you begin, there's no going back, so one must tread carefully.

This thread is not about ex-pats and tax laws, but I will comment just this:

Even if you renounce your US citizenship, that does NOT give you a free pass to bail on past due, or future taxes owed to the US Gov't. IRS will hunt you down.

"You will lose all the benefits of US citizenship including US residency and your US passport, and you will likely still be held responsible for paying any past, current or future US taxes (which is the primary reason why most people want to renounce their US citizenship)."

Mixx

Quote: (12-17-2011 03:28 AM)P Dog Wrote:  

The USA is the only country in the world which prosecutes and taxes it's citizens even when they are outside its borders. I feel sorry for all guys born with U.S citizenship. If I were American, I'd grab an EU citizenship and then renounce my American citizenship for a green card instead.

Oh sorry I did not know P stood for Polanski. Why do Euro's bash America but deep down they have a desire to live there!!

If you renounce your US citizenship I would imagine it would be very difficult to obtain a green card afterwards.
The country also loses alot of money due to tax dodgers who have there millions in safe havens across the world.

Guys, please do not hijack this thread with topics outside of the subject "age of consent laws for US citizens abroad".


Mixx

Apologies Mixx!

I would say the answer to your question is yes, pretty sure this was implemented due to the sex tourists preying on little kids in Asia. (e.g NAMBLA group)

when i was in highschool i loved smashing highschool chicks... nothing changed when i was in my 20s.....

Quote: (12-17-2011 02:14 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

Quote: (12-17-2011 03:28 AM)P Dog Wrote:  

The USA is the only country in the world which prosecutes and taxes it's citizens even when they are outside its borders. I feel sorry for all guys born with U.S citizenship. If I were American, I'd grab an EU citizenship and then renounce my American citizenship for a green card instead.

Oh sorry I did not know P stood for Polanski. Why do Euro's bash America but deep down they have a desire to live there!!

If you renounce your US citizenship I would imagine it would be very difficult to obtain a green card afterwards.
The country also loses alot of money due to tax dodgers who have there millions in safe havens across the world.

WTF. I'm not European, I'm Australian. I wasn't America bashing, I was being logical. American citizenship comes with disadvantages, while an EU passport makes residency throughout most of the continent very very easy. Makes sense to have the later over the former. And sorry Mixx.

Back on topic: I believe that in parts of Mexico the age of consent is as low as 13, the law in the first post wasn't only designed to prevent commercial sex tourism but also kiddie diddlers looking to get it without paying. I think the law banning P4P of minors makes moral sense, but the law law about 16 years of age for non-commercial sex is stupid. The law of the land should rule. By the same token, if I were visiting Saudi Arabia I'd respect their laws by not fucking a woman I wasn't married to. It cuts both ways.

Last I checked Spain had the lowest AOC at 13, surprisingly low for a modern westernized country.

Quote: (12-17-2011 09:41 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  

Last I checked Spain had the lowest AOC at 13, surprisingly low for a modern westernized country.

i think thats the lowest beside were the pope lives, that shit was like 9 or something i think they raised it to 11 or 12... thats pretty much to young, i like younger girls but like 16 is about as low as i would go.

Quote: (12-17-2011 09:41 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  

Last I checked Spain had the lowest AOC at 13, surprisingly low for a modern westernized country.

Two words, "The Moors."