Quote: (03-19-2016 04:54 AM)Parzival Wrote:  

I did some boxing and some Wing Tsung back in my days. Still I'm at a basic level. Now I train with a friend. He is a total beginner and I share some of my few basics I know. We put a lot work into balance of the feet, hip movement. We make shadow boxing, technical training, heavy bag, jump ropes and at the end always sparring.
For the sparring we just use MMA gloves and open hands. We want to keep it as real as possible. As he has no fighting experience, I consider palm strikes better so far. Also with open hands you have a wider range of motion.

I don't know a lot of moves because I mostly did boxing. So I have to re think what works and what not when we have this no rules sparring. I consider the sparring the most important part to get a touch of perpetration for a real situation. The more my friend learns, the more I will rise the level. My goal is to have sparring with almost real conditions at the end. No holding back or fancy moves. Because I'm more advanced I miss the thrill that I had with opponents above my skill level, but because I'm not a pro, it give me also a good learning because he is faster then me. Maybe in the future some other people can join and we start a little group. The main goal is to be aware of self defence. I try also to bring in stuff that I see in fighting videos, and see how it works when we do our sparring. We do it 2 times per week, want to rise it to 3x in the week. Always 1.5 to 2 hours. Beside that I lift 3 times.

Please don't take this the wrong way...but you and your friend need to get some proper instruction.

If I had a £ for every guy that has come into my gym that has "self trained" and was utterly, incomprehensibly bad...

What's worse is that bad habits are harder to correct than no habits.

I applaud your enthusiasm but seriously...get a coach!

Quote: (03-19-2016 04:54 AM)Parzival Wrote:  

As he has no fighting experience, I consider palm strikes better so far. Also with open hands you have a wider range of motion.

I don't understand the logic here. Why do you consider open hands better? To prevent injury?

Quote: (03-19-2016 04:54 AM)Parzival Wrote:  

My goal is to have sparring with almost real conditions at the end. No holding back or fancy moves.

Well, you'll learn really quickly that going 100% with 4oz gloves is a bad idea. Broken orbital bones and concussions are no fun.

Seriously, the best way to learn is to go to a reputable gym and train. Training with your buddy and practicing what your coach teaches you is a great idea, but you guys need a real coach.


EDIT: Somehow I missed CBW's pots above mine, where he read my mind and stole my argument.

Brown belt in BJJ here, also been doing MT for a while now as well.

Here are some tips:

1) Takedowns
2) Takedowns
3) More takedowns

Seriously though there are some serious issues with BJJ nowadays. There seem to be a lot of guys who reach higher ranks with limited wrestling skills and can't do a takedown to save their life, it's a severe weakness.

While you can do a basic clinch/takedown on an untrained opponent it's harder against someone who's trained. And by 'trained' I just mean a basic sprawl and single leg defense(whizzer, get the leg to the outside) So practice them early and often.

Also if you're training MMA, make sure the BJJ coach actually knows about MMA not just gi BJJ.

In general though, just take care of your body and do your best to avoid injuries. Take care of your joints and if your body is telling you to rest, do so. Foam rolling, stretching, weight lifting, and a healthy diet are all key.

The most important thing in my opinion is to enjoy the journey and have fun. It takes a long time to get good unless you're a phenom(I'm not.) You will learn a lot...not just about fighting, but about yourself...your fears, your strengths, your limitations. You'll also make a bunch of friends and be part of a worldwide fraternity of sorts.

If you have any specific questions feel free to PM me.

Quote: (03-20-2016 02:42 PM)Neo Wrote:  

Seriously though there are some serious issues with BJJ nowadays. There seem to be a lot of guys who reach higher ranks with limited wrestling skills and can't do a takedown to save their life, it's a severe weakness.

I don't like to train takedowns and when i trained in a pure bjj academy we rarely did them except when there was a tournament right around the corner.
We didn't do them much under the instructor orders that it was too risky, while rolling with a new white belt who goes too hard will just leave you with a few bruises, trying to take down a stubborn newbie who refuses to accept he doesn't know shit about fighting can leave you with a fucked up knee from a rugby type of takedown or him trying to trip you placing his foot in odd ways and just pushing you down.

IMO trying to get good at takedowns and even throws from a bjj teacher is like trying to learn pure boxing from a muay thai coach, sure he might know the basics but it's a world of difference when you actually go to a wrestling school or a judo school.

For a complete newbie the most important thing would be not to get injured, 3 of my friends tried "MMA" instead of just focusing on a single martial art first, none of them passed the 2 month mark due to injuries, one of them needed surgery.

The BJJ legitimacy train rapidly running out of track gents.

The lineage of your black belt is going the way of Karate I'm afraid...lost in the jumble of every man and his dog awarding them.

Enjoy the tail end whilst it lasts lads.

Quote: (03-20-2016 09:09 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

The BJJ legitimacy train rapidly running out of track gents.

The lineage of your black belt is going the way of Karate I'm afraid...lost in the jumble of every man and his dog awarding them.

Enjoy the tail end whilst it lasts lads.

"A black belt only covers two inches of your ass. You have to cover the rest.” - Royce Gracie
The variable of constant sparring separates the McDojo belts from the BJJ belts and I don't foresee that separation going away very soon. Although a glut of sub-standard Black Belts is still capable of reducing the meaning of having a black belt.

Quote: (03-21-2016 03:26 PM)Roadrunner Wrote:  

Quote: (03-20-2016 09:09 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

The BJJ legitimacy train rapidly running out of track gents.

The lineage of your black belt is going the way of Karate I'm afraid...lost in the jumble of every man and his dog awarding them.

Enjoy the tail end whilst it lasts lads.

"A black belt only covers two inches of your ass. You have to cover the rest.” - Royce Gracie
The variable of constant sparring separates the McDojo belts from the BJJ belts and I don't foresee that separation going away very soon. Although a glut of sub-standard Black Belts is still capable of reducing the meaning of having a black belt.

Just wait and see. It won't happen overnight.

Nobody in the 60s thought karate would be the joke it is today...

Quote: (03-21-2016 03:26 PM)Roadrunner Wrote:  

Quote: (03-20-2016 09:09 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

The BJJ legitimacy train rapidly running out of track gents.

The lineage of your black belt is going the way of Karate I'm afraid...lost in the jumble of every man and his dog awarding them.

Enjoy the tail end whilst it lasts lads.

"A black belt only covers two inches of your ass. You have to cover the rest.” - Royce Gracie
The variable of constant sparring separates the McDojo belts from the BJJ belts and I don't foresee that separation going away very soon. Although a glut of sub-standard Black Belts is still capable of reducing the meaning of having a black belt.

But even that constant sparring is watered down to people pulling guard and dragging their asses across the mat like a cat in heat.

Watch Keenan/Miyao matches for a glimpse of McDojo BJJ being spread like herpes all across the internet.

I can't count how many BJJ guys I've met who say "I don't care if what I learn works in a real fight or not" which is translated to "I'm a fucking pussy and don't want to train takedowns or get crossfaced too hard".

Quote: (03-21-2016 05:19 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

I can't count how many BJJ guys I've met who say "I don't care if what I learn works in a real fight or not" which is translated to "I'm a fucking pussy and don't want to train takedowns or get crossfaced too hard".

Swap BJJ stuff for Karate moves et voila!

Quote: (03-20-2016 09:43 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

Please don't take this the wrong way...but you and your friend need to get some proper instruction.

Quote: (03-20-2016 01:39 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

Seriously, the best way to learn is to go to a reputable gym and train. Training with your buddy and practicing what your coach teaches you is a great idea, but you guys need a real coach.

We do manly boxing and I have 1 year experience. In my town there is no self defence school, I will check out one in my area by time. There is a Krav Maga school that I will visit. I'm aware that I also need more practice. Because train with my friend improve him to my level but I do not improve so far.

Every boxing gym I ever went to was very light on sparring. Usually spent the two hours hitting the air and warm-ups/cardio. All necessary, but I can do that at home, so I took to the gym instead. I wish that somebody WOULD correct my technique.

Quote: (03-22-2016 01:21 PM)churros Wrote:  

Every boxing gym I ever went to was very light on sparring. Usually spent the two hours hitting the air and warm-ups/cardio. All necessary, but I can do that at home, so I took to the gym instead. I wish that somebody WOULD correct my technique.

Lots of boxing/martial arts gyms simply don't bother.

I can sort of see why as after a while it gets tedious teaching the basics properly to people you know won't be there in a month or two.

There's also the elephant in the room that is coaches that can't actually see when you're going wrong...or if they do, can't pinpoint exactly how to fix it.

I've come to the general conclusion that most coaches, in most sports, everywhere in the World are actually really bad.

^I completely agree with your conclusion. I played a lot of golf growing up and got many lessons from golf professionals. It certainly helped but I still had lots of problems with my swing and I only saw marginal improvements for the money that was being spent.

I then got a lesson from a "good" golf pro. Within an hour, I was hitting the ball longer and straighter than I could imagine. I kept hitting balls well after the lesson was over because I was absolutely shocked at the difference.

Its hard to find a good coach but they can make all the difference.

The boxing gym where I went to did regular matches. So their reputation was on this. Of course they did focus more on the young ones that are fighters or will be. Not the ones that do boxing for be in shape, the joy or just to learn to fight. But people come and go, sometimes we had training just with 3 or 4 people, other times with 20.

Great post guys.

I'm 29 and took my first boxing 1-on-1 lesson yesterday. Really enjoyed it.

Looking to take a regular weekly lesson. Maybe 2x week but I also want to fit in my running and weights addictions so I'll see. I have plenty of free time though.

I wild love to be sparring within 6 months with some miniscule level of competence. Does that seem a reasonable goal?

Quote: (03-23-2016 11:32 PM)jbkunt2 Wrote:  

Great post guys.

I'm 29 and took my first boxing 1-on-1 lesson yesterday. Really enjoyed it.

Looking to take a regular weekly lesson. Maybe 2x week but I also want to fit in my running and weights addictions so I'll see. I have plenty of free time though.

I wild love to be sparring within 6 months with some miniscule level of competence. Does that seem a reasonable goal?

My advice to improve fast would be to shadow box as much as possible. Every day, for hours if you want. Build perfect punching technique into your muscle memory. You'll start with just jabs and crosses, but as you learn more footwork and punches you'll add those in. Most guys just want to punch hard at the start, and this usually is detrimental to your technique and builds bad habits. Shadow boxing in front of a mirror really helps too.

How often do you guys train shadow kicks? And if so how many repetitions a day is a good number to get the high kick faster?

I used to do 50-50-10 (low middle high) each leg everyday with a bag at home a few years ago and that got me to do a crappy high kick with my dominant legs in 6 months.

Based on my experience and from what my coaches told me shadow kicks are actually better than just kicking the bag to get the right technique.

About the BJJ thing i honestly don't see the legitimacy of belts going away anytime soon, but of course maybe that's just where i live.

What i do see now coming back to training after a long time and having started in bjj 6 years ago is that it's no longer taught as a complete self defense system and instead as just as sport.

The popularity of MMA and the period of time where wrestlers completely dominated has a lot to do with it, bjj is now just "ground game", if you want takedowns go train wrestling. And of course no one is buying the old marketing started by the gracie of you don't even need to throw a punch with jiu jitsu.

Do you guys drain your own cauliflower ear? I haven't had any bad swells but I'm getting them more often now and wondering if I should start draining it. A few guys do it at the gym but a lot of them don't bother and just let their ears go all fucked up.

delete

Quote: (03-21-2016 05:19 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

But even that constant sparring is watered down to people pulling guard and dragging their asses across the mat like a cat in heat.

Watch Keenan/Miyao matches for a glimpse of McDojo BJJ being spread like herpes all across the internet.

I can't count how many BJJ guys I've met who say "I don't care if what I learn works in a real fight or not" which is translated to "I'm a fucking pussy and don't want to train takedowns or get crossfaced too hard".

I've been thinking about this for the past few years now. A lot of straight pure sport BJJ guys are being lulled into a false sense of security. The problem is that very many of the sport techniques simply don't apply when someone is punching you. You can't just relax in side control while someone is throwing knees and punches.

A few years back when they had Ryron or Rener forgot who fight Galvao and they were claiming 'victory' cause he didn't submit them. It was absolutely ridiculous cause in a real match his 'keeping it playful' style would have resulted in getting his face smashed in. Those guys are some of the worst, and I can't believe they call themselves Gracie's, at least they stopped selling blue belts online. There are some legit members who fight MMA, some real guys are still around.

The other problem I notice is that a lot of guys become so 'BJJ centric' that they forget the basics about self defense. Here's an example...

Last week I decided to just put myself into a shit position during rolling, so I just let myself get mounted, but I told myself I was going to do an experiment. I WASN'T going to escape using BJJ, I was just going to react like a guy on the street would, just try to throw them off.

Now I learned these basics years ago, how to maintain mount when a guy pushes on your hips, or your chest, or knees, or whatever. But does the new breed know this stuff?

Nope.

It was pretty hilarious, I was just throwing guys off me and they had no defense. Of course, if I went for a BJJ escape (Upa for example) they'd know to transition to side mount, but against the basics of just someone powering them off, nope.

It's a serious problem. Also from the school owners point of view they WANT to keep it like that. They don't want a bunch of injured students, or to scare people off with MMA. It's unfortunate, but that's the way things are going. I do my part to bring back the old school and will continue to do so.

^^^ No different to Karate guys twirling people around in the air with wrist locks to me.

I've been to an MMA gym here in Mexico a few times. My background, as mentioned in a few other threads, is Kung Fu and secondarily wrestling. I can defend pretty well with the grappling, but have little grappling offense.

It's kinda irritating to grapple with guys who won't make a move. I'm there to learn to fight MMA guys, not necessarily become one. I engage them in grappling out of sportsmanship, and get myself into trouble that I otherwise might not have gotten into. In my philosophy I want to be able to fend off any attempts to engage in grappling, and keep the fight where I want it (on my feet). It is illustrated by the way Holmes beat Rousey, not by being a better grappler but just good enough to fend it off, and a much better striker. I cannot test this out with BBJ guys who insist on waiting for me to make a move. However if I can often escape from good BJJ guys after I got into some trouble, I'm not that far off. I don't feel I need to be as good at BJJ to beat MMA guys, just good enough.

Anyways it's a great workout but hit-or-miss instructions wise. I've learned a few ground moves, all too complicated that I forgot them by the next day. Hence the repetition people talk about above. I think it might be better for me to find things out myself on Youtube and so forth, then go practice them in this gym. For example, I keep getting caught in front headlocks due to my wrestling background (they are illegal in collegiate wrestling). Certainly no one noticed, diagnosed, or gave me any pointers at the gym. I've since found a few preventative fundamentals like keeping my head, neck, and back very upright (not like typical collegiate wrestling tie-ups) and a few techniques to get out even if caught. I'll have to practice in real life, but I think a combination of online learning (whether the Gracy online BJJ school or cruising Youtube) and practicing my own techniques along with what they teach me is better than trying to piece together a coherent flow-chart system from the mish-mash of what they teach me.

I was not impressed with the boxing skills of the students. The guys that could choke me out on the ground were not such good boxers. They telegraphed a lot, and were slow. None of us went full-out, obviously, but my Kung Fu makes me a pretty decent boxer. I might change directions and go to a pure boxing gym. I want to learn the footwork, the bobbing/weaving, improve my ability to slip from punches with max efficiency, etc...

I've read somewhere, maybe on this forum, that a lot of pure boxing technique like the footwork, the bobbing and weaving, don't work in MMA or a "real fight." Can anyone comment on this? I don't see why not. Slipping is a great skill in Kung Fu and there are so many ways to do it, just like in boxing.

Quote: (03-22-2016 02:11 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

Quote: (03-22-2016 01:21 PM)churros Wrote:  

Every boxing gym I ever went to was very light on sparring. Usually spent the two hours hitting the air and warm-ups/cardio. All necessary, but I can do that at home, so I took to the gym instead. I wish that somebody WOULD correct my technique.

I've come to the general conclusion that most coaches, in most sports, everywhere in the World are actually really bad.

Can you elaborate on this? It's an interesting topic.

Quote: (04-03-2016 04:28 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

^^^ No different to Karate guys twirling people around in the air with wrist locks to me.

The straight up old school style Carlson/Mario Sperry type vale tudo of wrestling takedown followed by positional domination and ground and pound works. A lot of the sportive stuff which works only with the gi and makes you vulnerable to punches is the issue with BJJ now.

The sportive aspect is becoming dominant which is a problem. And I've seen solid higher belts (purples and up) flounder and get destroyed during full MMA classes.

I really wish they wouldn't promote anyone to black belt unless they've at least fought amateur MMA. I believe a BJJ black belt has to have solid MT skills and wrestling skills, and anyone who doesn't shouldn't be teaching self defense.

Quote: (04-03-2016 04:14 PM)Neo Wrote:  

I've been thinking about this for the past few years now. A lot of straight pure sport BJJ guys are being lulled into a false sense of security. The problem is that very many of the sport techniques simply don't apply when someone is punching you.

Blue belt techniques win mma matches, that being said in my experience it's actually a lot easier to get armbars/triangles or sweeps when someone is fully focused on punching you from guard.

Like i said before maybe it's just the place i live but we used to do drills where the teacher put on gloves and we weren't allowed to hit him back, and he kept punching us until we submitted him. And even though i agree that most self defense stuff isn't being taught anymore, most of the guys that train here have done at least a few classes of MT or standup.
Many of the discussions we had after class where everyone is just bullshitting around was about what would happen in a street fight, you would have to be retarted not to realize that bjj is a lot different with punches involved.

Quote: (04-03-2016 04:51 PM)Moto Wrote:  

I cannot test this out with BBJ guys who insist on waiting for me to make a move. However if I can often escape from good BJJ guys after I got into some trouble, I'm not that far off. I don't feel I need to be as good at BJJ to beat MMA guys, just good enough.


I've read somewhere, maybe on this forum, that a lot of pure boxing technique like the footwork, the bobbing and weaving, don't work in MMA or a "real fight." Can anyone comment on this? I don't see why not. Slipping is a great skill in Kung Fu and there are so many ways to do it, just like in boxing.

Since you mentioned learning techniques from youtube i would imagine that guys more proficient than you at bjj are going slow and waiting for you on purpose to help you learn. You aren't gonna learn anything if everyone who grapples with you goes 100% and puts you in a lock in 10 seconds.

Escapes don't work (or do at a very low porcentage) if the other guy knows what he is doing and is more advanced than you. You have to avoid getting caught in locks or chokes in the first place (that takes years).

In boxing you stand wider and almost sideways to your opponent, you will get low kicked from the outside or you won't be able to defend a takedown.

Ducking under a punch or too much focus on bobbing and weaving will have you catch a front kick to the face or a knee to the face if you duck your head or squat down too much. Muay thai matches have very little head movement for this reason.