So recently an old thread ('How did you find the RooshV Forum') resurfaced, and my own story and lots of the posts in there had me thinking about 'destiny'. Therefore I thought I'd make a thread on it to discuss the topic further.

Does everything happen for a reason? When you think about it, tiny things can change your life. For example, anyone reading this has found Roosh V Forum, but how easily could this have not been the case?

Say on the day you found the forum whilst browsing on the internet, a tiny powercut disrupts your web surfing and you stop searching, get up and do something else. You never find the forum, you never learn how to pull women with ease and you never get the top quality fitness and educational advice that is offered here. How different might your life be, just because of a tiny powercut?



Were us men on here always supposed to find this website, was it planned all along? Some would say the fact that a decent number of members were explicitly told about the forum takes away the idea of destiny, but I disagree. It is still by accident that you were friends with someone who knew about the forum, or that you just happened to be browsing another internet forum where someone mentioned RVF.

I suppose that the idea of destiny links to whether you believe things happen by accident, that there is nothing we can do at the time to stop these things from happening.

It'd be great to hear your thoughts on this, so I'll start with the argument: Everything, in one way or another is an accident

These threads can devolve and often spin out of control when people start arguing about religion, so without going that route...

I do not believe in destiny. Life is what you make of it and there are plenty of "happy accidents" and misfortune. I don't believe there is some guiding force in our lives or that anything happens for a specific reason (i.e. You got laid because you were supposed to or it was your turn). Now if you commit a crime and go to jail, that's not destiny either. In that case, an active decision was made and and you faced the consequences of those actions.

Rather, I do think someone who is disciplined, focused, and works hard at something will generally get the results they desire at some point if they are patient enough. Life is a series of causes and effects. Our genetics, environment, and the decisions we make ultimately determine what happens to us. You control your future, call it destiny or whatever you want, but the power is in your hands. This is why I think is it so absurd when people of either sex complain about X, Y, or Z. There are some things you cannot control (i.e. race, height, birthplace). Why not put more effort into what you can control instead of whining or giving up. Move to another city, join a gym, read a book on game, practice practice practice.

There are plenty of websites you will never find, just as there are plenty of women out there you won't ever discover or experience. That doesn't mean you won't find out the power of improving yourself for the better on your own or through some other method. That's the great thing about life. There are many paths that lead to the top of the mountain, but the view is still the same.

Destiny/fate is a dangerous belief to buy into, and no red-pill leaning male should ever subscribe to such nonsense.

It is the antithesis of the hard-work ethic that is espoused here, since the whole premise suggests that anything good coming your way will happen regardless of the work you put in.

Rather than looking to such romantic notions, listen to your gut instincts when it comes to decision making, if you want to reach that level of "higher-self" that we all secretly want to attain.

I believe that all the major events in your life are pre-planned, but how you get there is up to you. Opportunities are presented that you have to seize to reach these events. If you miss one opportunity, it will be presented in another light. If you keep missing them, then you will miss the major event(s) that you were meant to experience, and therefore will have to relive a similar life to attain those experiences.

The purpose of life from a spiritual perspective is to experience everything so that your soul can evolve to reach heaven and rejoin God.

I think too many people are looking at this on too small a scale. Sure you might have to put in hard work and grind, but you might only be motivated or skilled enough to do that through an accident.

Quote: (05-24-2015 08:53 AM)britchard Wrote:  

I think too many people are looking at this on too small a scale. Sure you might have to put in hard work and grind, but you might only be motivated or skilled enough to do that through an accident.

I agree. The fact that we ended up here is the result of a fortunate accident. However, it was still the result of our hard work that has led us to our long-term goals. Being a part of this forum has only influenced and supported these goals, not driven them completely.

So what Windom Earle said is true...

Quote: (05-24-2015 07:07 AM)Windom Earle Wrote:  

Destiny/fate is a dangerous belief to buy into, and no red-pill leaning male should ever subscribe to such nonsense.

...but at the same time good accidents do happen. Just don't rely on them to happen.

Yes, I agree to an extent that you have to force these accidents to happen and for them to have an effect.

What I'm talking about is that it's through sheer luck/destiny that we found RVF. What I think some if you guys are trying to say is that you still need to put in the hard work to get laid, jacked, etc..

Can you see the difference between our points of view now?

^ incoherent to start using "luck/destiny" as if they are synonyms. Destiny implies teleology i.e. purpose. Luck is a roll of the dice.

There exists freedom of will but there is no freedom of choice. This answer satisfies both science and theology.

Freedom of will works on vertical axis. At any given time you can choose between right and wrong, best and not so good, not so bad and worst, God and devil, truth and lies based on your understanding of these things. Understanding of good and evil is created partially by our experiences but a big part of it is innate and makes us human. This is your conscience.

Freedom of choice works on horizontal axis. This is the freedom to buy and eat either potatoes or rice, to buy either Ford or Volkswagen, to name your child John or Steve, to exit the bed with either the right or left leg. This type of freedom is imaginary and doesn't exist yet people will shout, kill and murder to protect their idea of having this type of freedom.

The vertical axis is morality. Horizontal axis is perpendicular to morality.

Only morality makes you free.

If you have moral standards why chicken breast is better then a hamburger then you can exercise will to eat chicken breast instead of hamburger or you can fail to act on will and eat hamburger instead of chicken breast. There is no choosing there is only willing or not willing.

If you have no moral compass why potatoes are better then rice then you are a slave to a million of factors such as your genetic allocation of taste receptors in your mouth, advertising, peer pressure, your income, product placement on supermarket and others that will make the choice for you. If you are careless then you will feel like making a choice but the truth is that universe has ordered you to make that exact choice (no such thing as making a choice really exists) by manipulating your subconscious trough billions mechanisms some as subtle as the shadow of an electron.

Morality is what distinguishes a human from animal or a robot, it is what makes you free and unique.

This answer is taken from the esoteric teachings Kaballah, but is also strongly repeated in Catholic and Orthodox dogma for those who know their theology well and has no quarrel with "scientific" determinism. I use "scientific" in quotes because most people who use science to attack morality are pretty far from being real scientists or having real scientific understanding. As a bonus here is a quick popculture reference for anchoring this idea into your consciousness:

   

In this context remember - anyone defending a freedom of choice is in error.


As for destiny - if you exercise will you will find the truth sooner or later and no powercut, no single event or chain of events will stop you, maybe merely delay. If you try to "make a choice instead" then you are hurled in a whirlpool of uncontrollable events that can throw you anywhere, maybe even holding a mattress for a false rape accuser or serving your balls on plate for your lesbian overlords on a gay parade. Given that entropy is positive in universe you are statistically likely to end up worse then before if you try to make a choice without will.

Quote: (05-25-2015 03:01 AM)Mage Wrote:  

There exists freedom of will but there is no freedom of choice. This answer satisfies both science and theology.

Interesting, though I believe this to be backwards.

We do not have free will. I can not will myself to fly. Flying is not in my nature, though comes naturally to a bird.

We do have freedom of choice within the context of human nature, both materially and immaterially. We can choose different clothes or food, character or religion.

I guess I must have watched the identical commercials to you but totally reversed in order for my "choice" of opinion to be the inverse of yours.

Mage, that's really interesting thanks. I'd never really thought of it like that, in such a complex way. So you're effectively saying that a lot of our 'freedoms' and choices aren't real freedoms and choices, they just look like that because society has made them that?

Thanks for moving this from the everything else forum too mods, thought it didn't really belong there.

Quote: (05-25-2015 03:35 AM)Sooth Wrote:  

Interesting, though I believe this to be backwards.

I use correct terminology as defined by Orthodox church, although the idea is not solely theirs. If you cannot fly then you cannot choose to fly as well as you cannot will to fly.

Can - shows the range of all possibilities on XY axis. Vertical axis is morality and horizontal is anything parallel to it. Within this range of "can" you can move vertically using will and you get moved horizontally by the laws of universe trough choice and circumstances. You can control the vertical movement but not the horizontal. You can stabilize your movement on horizontal axis however by making sure you don't make any choices and only act on will.

You cannot choose clothes or church or character or food - any choice is predetermined.

Another reason why I use will and choice as I do is because of the "pro choice" movement is an actual illustration of deluded people who think they can choose without will.

I am against abortion, but I am not pro life. I view life and death philosophically and as realities that must be accepted. I am pro will. Killing a baby might be a choice but it shows a total lack of will, it is the clear opposite of will. Because it is inhuman to will such a thing.

If the average religious person would have more IQ and would know their theology better they would have to rename "ProLife" to "Pro Will" as it better illustrates what the real controversy is about. But "ProLife" sure sounds more appealing to median IQ, it works on emotions.

Quote: (05-25-2015 03:41 AM)britchard Wrote:  

Mage, that's really interesting thanks. I'd never really thought of it like that, in such a complex way. So you're effectively saying that a lot of our 'freedoms' and choices aren't real freedoms and choices, they just look like that because society has made them that?

Yes. While my overall point was even larger it can also be read as a social commentary. Freedom to watch one TV show or another or buy one brand of butter or another is not really freedom but a socially acceptable illusion to keep drones at their place. Freedom is not in consumerism.

True freedom is freedom to act on will and become the best version of yourself you can be. And yes society likes to put restraints for people who try to do that, because free people are potentially dangerous.

Quote: (05-25-2015 04:04 AM)Mage Wrote:  

Can - shows the range of all possibilities on XY axis. Vertical axis is morality and horizontal is anything parallel to it. Within this range of "can" you can move vertically using will and you get moved horizontally by the laws of universe trough choice and circumstances. You can control the vertical movement but not the horizontal. You can stabilize your movement on horizontal axis however by making sure you don't make any choices and only act on will.

This is an interesting perspective, I've never heard it put in a graph like this.

You talk of a vertical moral axis, implying some sort of scale of morality.
In order to have a scale of morality, don't you also need some absolute standard of morality in order to place morality on a scale?

Otherwise the graph is meaningless, like a scale from Monday to Sandwich.

Quote: (05-25-2015 03:35 AM)Sooth Wrote:  

Quote: (05-25-2015 03:01 AM)Mage Wrote:  

There exists freedom of will but there is no freedom of choice. This answer satisfies both science and theology.

Interesting, though I believe this to be backwards.

We do not have free will. I can not will myself to fly. Flying is not in my nature, though comes naturally to a bird.

We do have freedom of choice within the context of human nature, both materially and immaterially. We can choose different clothes or food, character or religion.

I guess I must have watched the identical commercials to you but totally reversed in order for my "choice" of opinion to be the inverse of yours.

Free will doesn't mean you get to do what is physically impossible.

Quote:Quote:

free will
noun
1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

It means you're not bound by some invisible force and are free to make your own decisions in life, which in my opinion unless you are deeply religious/spiritual and reject logical, rational thinking, you can't possibly believe free will doesn't exist. That would be accepting your fate, blue pill type stuff.

Quote: (05-25-2015 04:48 AM)Sooth Wrote:  

You talk of a vertical moral axis, implying some sort of scale of morality.
In order to have a scale of morality, don't you also need some absolute standard of morality in order to place morality on a scale?

Otherwise the graph is meaningless, like a scale from Monday to Sandwich.

Yes. Morals are not relative.

I believe in Synchronicity. Destiny, yes, in the sense that as a man your destiny is your own to create. When I hear "destiny", it makes me think of dipshit mundane females who turn to fantasy to make themselves appear to have a deeper understanding of the world and spout bullshit like "everything happens for a reason"...which they do, but only because events influence one-another, not because of "fate" or anything.

Quote: (05-26-2015 12:07 PM)UroboricForms Wrote:  

When I hear "destiny", it makes me think of dipshit mundane females who turn to fantasy to make themselves appear to have a deeper understanding of the world and spout bullshit like "everything happens for a reason"...which they do, but only because events influence one-another, not because of "fate" or anything.

Women are able to lie to themselves in that manner simply because their lives can change without them having to actually do anything.

If a woman fucks, marries, and/or has children with the right man, she can ultimately lead a life that she could have never given herself nor that she would have had based off the resources of her parents.

From one extreme end, our society puts women who fuck the right celebrities and athletes on television shows that pay $300,000 a season, which then they can use as a launching pad to write books, create fashion/perfume/makeup brands, and other forms of business that can create more income.

These are women who likely barely graduated from high school.

On a level that most of us can relate to better, some of us here are doing pretty well for ourselves, we could meet a chick at a gas station, she ends up becoming our wife, mother of our children, she gets to drive around in a luxury car, wear the nicest clothes, live in the nicest neighborhood, in other words, we provide her with a life that she never had -- now that some of us are shifting more towards foreign-born women, we're giving dream lives to women who grew up in poverty in other parts of the world.

Whether we're talking about extreme cases or more relative cases, the reality remains the same: that type of "destiny" is uncommon for a man.

We don't have the luxury of just existing, looking nice enough for someone to be interested in talking to us, and then the next thing we know we go from zeroes to heroes thanks to their resources and assistance.

Whatever we want to have, we have to work for, we can't depend on meeting the right woman, or having the right legislation passed so that we can be taken care of, so that we can live the uncommon life, so that we can take a look around one day and say "this was destiny" while being willfully ignorant to the fact that we didn't do a damn thing for it.

Yes, for some extent but I believe that humans have the power to change destiny with their strong will and determination.

I'm not sure there's a bona fide destiny that will happen for everyone, but I think there may be a plan that guardian angel beings may help you along if you do things right.

Does it matter? If everything is predetermined, it's the same as if you made the choices on your own from the perspective we're capable of.

"Do you believe in fate, Neo?"
"No."
"Why not?"
"Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life."
"I know exactly...what you mean."

I like the analogy of your life being akin to a small, but seaworthy, ship in stormy seas. You are the Captain. Do your duty to lead the crew and be Captain to the very best of your abilities. If you suck as a Captain, it is very likely that everyone on board will die. Even if you are the best Captain extant, one huge wave could still kill everyone aboard. But you must do your best, and if you do, that is the best chance everyone has. There's no point to cursing the squalls and storms, you're at sea. Just do your best and you can sleep well knowing that you did so. If you return to the dock with a hold full of crab and all hands accounted for, you can rejoice, but don't think it was all you. You were lucky too.

Yes, I've watched too much Deadliest Catch (especially the early years when it was better).