[villageindian]

A fascinating read on why Apple manufactures its products in China.

I have read time and again on this forum on how STEM is vital and that the economy has changed significantly in the U.S. It is amazing to read how manufacturing jobs will never come back in the way we want in the U.S.. This forum is really good at highlighting and it is always interesting to read everyone's views here on this. It is almost as if all the top guys at this forum could go join Obama's team and talk about this but I really dont think anyone would listen and find solutions to these problems. I guess the value and knowledge of the people in this forum can be better used for something else.

Some quotes from the article

Quote:

Though Americans are among the most educated workers in the world, the nation has stopped training enough people in the mid-level skills that factories need.

Quote:

Asia was attractive because the semiskilled workers there were cheaper. But that wasn’t driving Apple. For technology companies, the cost of labor is minimal compared with the expense of buying parts and managing supply chains that bring together components and services from hundreds of companies.

Quote:

When an Apple team visited, the Chinese plant’s owners were already constructing a new wing. “This is in case you give us the contract,” the manager said, according to a former Apple executive. The Chinese government had agreed to underwrite costs for numerous industries, and those subsidies had trickled down to the glass-cutting factory. It had a warehouse filled with glass samples available to Apple, free of charge. The owners made engineers available at almost no cost. They had built on-site dormitories so employees would be available 24 hours a day.

Quote:

Another critical advantage for Apple was that China provided engineers at a scale the United States could not match. Apple’s executives had estimated that about 8,700 industrial engineers were needed to oversee and guide the 200,000 assembly-line workers eventually involved in manufacturing iPhones. The company’s analysts had forecast it would take as long as nine months to find that many qualified engineers in the United States.

Quote:

Companies like Apple “say the challenge in setting up U.S. plants is finding a technical work force,” said Martin Schmidt, associate provost at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. In particular, companies say they need engineers with more than high school, but not necessarily a bachelor’s degree. Americans at that skill level are hard to find.

Quote:

Modernization has always caused some kinds of jobs to change or disappear. As the American economy transitioned from agriculture to manufacturing and then to other industries, farmers became steelworkers, and then salesmen and middle managers. These shifts have carried many economic benefits, and in general, with each progression, even unskilled workers received better wages and greater chances at upward mobility.

But in the last two decades, something more fundamental has changed, economists say. Midwage jobs started disappearing. Particularly among Americans without college degrees, today’s new jobs are disproportionately in service occupations — at restaurants or call centers, or as hospital attendants or temporary workers — that offer fewer opportunities for reaching the middle class.

[Chad Daring]

"Companies like Apple “say the challenge in setting up U.S. plants is finding a technical work force,” said Martin Schmidt, associate provost at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. In particular, companies say they need engineers with more than high school, but not necessarily a bachelor’s degree. Americans at that skill level are hard to find."

This quote pisses me off more then you know

[Hencredible Casanova]

(01-22-2012 07:16 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  

"Companies like Apple “say the challenge in setting up U.S. plants is finding a technical work force,” said Martin Schmidt, associate provost at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. In particular, companies say they need engineers with more than high school, but not necessarily a bachelor’s degree. Americans at that skill level are hard to find."

This quote pisses me off more then you know

That's a bs answer if I ever heard one.

[Basil Ransom]

(01-22-2012 07:43 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(01-22-2012 07:16 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  

"Companies like Apple “say the challenge in setting up U.S. plants is finding a technical work force,” said Martin Schmidt, associate provost at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. In particular, companies say they need engineers with more than high school, but not necessarily a bachelor’s degree. Americans at that skill level are hard to find."

This quote pisses me off more then you know

That's a bs answer if I ever heard one.

Here's a rare article in your support. Usually though, the media just blindly repeats what companies say. Of course, if companies had their way, they'd flood the market with skilled foreigners to bring wages down. So they need to make up a reason to import foreigners.

It's like chicks who complain how there are no good men, how all the men worth dating are taken... Nah, it's that 1) your standards are too high 2) You're overlooking all the credible candidates and 3) you're too lazy to make yourself attractive enough to get the takers you desire.

Just analyze what that guy said. He implied you can get engineers with bachelor's degrees without much trouble. So the problem must be that you just don't want to pay typical engineering wages. Saying there's a shortage of labor here is like saying there's a shortage of new Lamborghinis priced at $10,000. If someone complained to you that there's a shortage of new Lambos available for $10k, you'd tell him that a) he's a fucking moron, and b) to shut the fuck up.

[BortimusPrime]

I guess the conservitard take on this is that it's the fault of lazy Americans for not wanting to get a Bachelor's Degree to get paid 10k a year, work 12 hr shifts, and live in a barracks.

[kosko]

Fuck Apple! Them and the rest of large corps purposely ran America into the ground. They knew they couldn't keep packing incentives and wages up, they ditched when they could see the tide turning.

The reason us mere mortals can see this scam and not our own lawmakers is because they are to blame also and they know it. Manufacturing died in the 70's, Carter did all he could to destroy the remaining middle manufacturing base left when he chocked off inflation (you can have different views on this but it would of made it extremely cheap for USA companies to compete). The Reagan came in and gave wealthy Americans huge cuts where they accumulated tons of wealth, where they speculated during Clintons years, and crashed it in Bush's. Obama now left with crumbs is doing the bidding of the vultures to get every last cent.

[WestIndianArchie]

Right now US manufacturing is moving towards further robotocization and automation.

The cutting edge stuff now are 3D printers. You can buy one for between 800-1500 bucks and print 3 dimensional objects in plastic.

As soon as you can do it with metal for about the price of an Apple Computer, the game will change tremendously.

I'm seriously considering getting one for my upcoming business although I don't immediately know how i'd use one. But the market right now doesn't exist. You've got 3d modellers and designers on one side, and a bunch of people with 3d printers not doing anything with theirs.

It's a good e-bay/e-lance market in the making for you young guys that are computer savvy.

[Menace]

Although the labor side is important, the major issue for these companies is supply logistics. All or most of the components that get put into electronics are made or sourced in Asia. In order to maintain optimal logistics and supply chain management, the manufacturing takes place there as well.

Germany is the obvious counter example of a first world country with a strong manufacturing base, however the U.S. does not have a national industrial policy per se. Germany has a strong vocational training system for those who don't go to college, and I think that would be a great thing for the U.S. to try. However, I fear the days of doing big things as a nation may be over unless it has to do with war.

[Andy_B]

You don't really need the plant jobs at home provided there are enough high level engineering jobs to go around. But therein lies the problem. Any one business, no matter how large, will only require so many high end engineering jobs. To sustain an economy built around high end design and engineering, you really need startups popping up left, right and center, and as big as a startup hub the U.S. is, that kind of activity is still concentrated in just a handful of cities. It's nothing that could sustain a huge workforce. That and, as somebody mentioned, not a lot of American kids are opting to go into engineering these days.

[Caligula]

Here's an interesting piece contrasting Germany's thriving manufacturing base with that of the US:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-ge...full.story

[Caligula]

(01-22-2012 10:06 PM)BortimusPrime Wrote:  

I guess the conservitard take on this is that it's the fault of lazy Americans for not wanting to get a Bachelor's Degree to get paid 10k a year, work 12 hr shifts, and live in a barracks.

Who says everyone who gets a bachelor's degree deserves a job in the field that the degree is in? Or even that they deserve a job that requires a bachelor's degree?

That just doesn't make sense. Most non-technical degrees don't confer any significant skills.

[Chad Daring]

(01-23-2012 03:44 PM)Caligula Wrote:  

(01-22-2012 10:06 PM)BortimusPrime Wrote:  

I guess the conservitard take on this is that it's the fault of lazy Americans for not wanting to get a Bachelor's Degree to get paid 10k a year, work 12 hr shifts, and live in a barracks.

Who says everyone who gets a bachelor's degree deserves a job in the field that the degree is in? Or even that they deserve a job that requires a bachelor's degree?

That just doesn't make sense. Most non-technical degrees don't confer any significant skills.

Guidance counselors, parents, teachers, principals, pastords, youth leaders, basically everyone young kids look up to.

You're right the problem is kids aren't told this. They go to college and lock themselves into debt only to find out after graduating that the real world is the real world and the job market is fucked and now they have a bachelors and have to work at Subway.

[Caligula]

(01-23-2012 04:23 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  

(01-23-2012 03:44 PM)Caligula Wrote:  

(01-22-2012 10:06 PM)BortimusPrime Wrote:  

I guess the conservitard take on this is that it's the fault of lazy Americans for not wanting to get a Bachelor's Degree to get paid 10k a year, work 12 hr shifts, and live in a barracks.

Who says everyone who gets a bachelor's degree deserves a job in the field that the degree is in? Or even that they deserve a job that requires a bachelor's degree?

That just doesn't make sense. Most non-technical degrees don't confer any significant skills.

Guidance counselors, parents, teachers, principals, pastords, youth leaders, basically everyone young kids look up to.

You're right the problem is kids aren't told this. They go to college and lock themselves into debt only to find out after graduating that the real world is the real world and the job market is fucked and now they have a bachelors and have to work at Subway.

I'm with you. It's a racket. It sucks that a readjustment is necessary, but hopefully teachers, guidance counselors and others will change their tune when they face the reality of the situation.

[bface]

Finally some sane people in this thread...

Economy is NOT a national thing. If a free market (or what's left of it) can produce cheaper workforce in another country it is actually good for the market if businesses take use of that. Think of labor as a commodity.

If I were in the US I would get into manufacturing or food production. Everything else will be mostly useless when the dollar crashes.

[Intl_Rasta]

(01-23-2012 01:29 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Right now US manufacturing is moving towards further robotocization and automation.

The cutting edge stuff now are 3D printers. You can buy one for between 800-1500 bucks and print 3 dimensional objects in plastic.

As soon as you can do it with metal for about the price of an Apple Computer, the game will change tremendously.

I'm seriously considering getting one for my upcoming business although I don't immediately know how i'd use one. But the market right now doesn't exist. You've got 3d modellers and designers on one side, and a bunch of people with 3d printers not doing anything with theirs.

It's a good e-bay/e-lance market in the making for you young guys that are computer savvy.

WestIndianArchie
I had to google 3d printers...Is this it one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt3EGgtSAUc

Your right i do see a world where these things will be viable, first thing i thought was interior designers really all product based designers.

[WestIndianArchie]

(01-23-2012 06:54 PM)Intl_Rasta Wrote:  

(01-23-2012 01:29 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Right now US manufacturing is moving towards further robotocization and automation.

The cutting edge stuff now are 3D printers. You can buy one for between 800-1500 bucks and print 3 dimensional objects in plastic.

As soon as you can do it with metal for about the price of an Apple Computer, the game will change tremendously.

I'm seriously considering getting one for my upcoming business although I don't immediately know how i'd use one. But the market right now doesn't exist. You've got 3d modellers and designers on one side, and a bunch of people with 3d printers not doing anything with theirs.

It's a good e-bay/e-lance market in the making for you young guys that are computer savvy.

WestIndianArchie
I had to google 3d printers...Is this it one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt3EGgtSAUc

Your right i do see a world where these things will be viable, first thing i thought was interior designers really all product based designers.

google makerbot.

that's a better picture of where 3d printing is.

[WestIndianArchie]

(01-23-2012 06:29 PM)bface Wrote:  

Finally some sane people in this thread...

Economy is NOT a national thing. If a free market (or what's left of it) can produce cheaper workforce in another country it is actually good for the market if businesses take use of that. Think of labor as a commodity.

If I were in the US I would get into manufacturing or food production. Everything else will be mostly useless when the dollar crashes.

Tell that to the millions of displaced workers in 1st world countries.

Part of the problem is that most politicians think very simplistically about the economy, and economics, more so than any other academic discipline is subject to political manipulation.

[Intl_Rasta]

(01-24-2012 03:21 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(01-23-2012 06:54 PM)Intl_Rasta Wrote:  

(01-23-2012 01:29 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Right now US manufacturing is moving towards further robotocization and automation.

The cutting edge stuff now are 3D printers. You can buy one for between 800-1500 bucks and print 3 dimensional objects in plastic.

As soon as you can do it with metal for about the price of an Apple Computer, the game will change tremendously.

I'm seriously considering getting one for my upcoming business although I don't immediately know how i'd use one. But the market right now doesn't exist. You've got 3d modellers and designers on one side, and a bunch of people with 3d printers not doing anything with theirs.

It's a good e-bay/e-lance market in the making for you young guys that are computer savvy.

WestIndianArchie
I had to google 3d printers...Is this it one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt3EGgtSAUc

Your right i do see a world where these things will be viable, first thing i thought was interior designers really all product based designers.

google makerbot.

that's a better picture of where 3d printing is.

I just checked out a few videos what they are doing is very impressive.

[ColSpanker]

Makerbot is a fun science fair project, but I don't see a lot of practical stuff coming out of it. The YouTube video is a much better representation of the direction 3D printing will take. I spent some time in this area with my company before getting left in the dust by developments in the field.
Lesson learned: if a bunch of academics want to get your company involved with a project, get the f*ckers to sign a contract. Else-wise they'll bail when the grant runs out.

[Neo]

(01-23-2012 03:44 PM)Caligula Wrote:  

Who says everyone who gets a bachelor's degree deserves a job in the field that the degree is in? Or even that they deserve a job that requires a bachelor's degree?

That just doesn't make sense. Most non-technical degrees don't confer any significant skills.

I agree with you. My degree is in a technical field, however here is the issue I have with certain corporations in the US. G posted a video where Seth Goldin talked about the 'race to the bottom.' where companies are just trying to do everything cheaper and cheaper, and it's happening at an alarming rate.

When there are thousands of skilled US applicants for a position, however the company opts to hire a foreign visa holder to fill the spot because they can pay them less I find that to be wrong. It's a just a lie for a company to state that there is a 'shortage of skilled workers' so they have to bring them in from other countries. Maybe for certain very specialized position, but not to the extent that it's happening. I'm sure if I was on the top rungs and needed to cut costs I'd probably be thinking differently.

No one is entitled or guaranteed a certain salary or job, or to even to be alive tomorrow, the trend has been moving towards being self employed and being self sustaining, because there's barely any job security for most industries.

[Thorfinnsson]

This is not just a cost issue. Manufacturing wages in the United States are considerably lower than in Germany, but 22% of the German workforce is employed in manufacturing (about double the American level). And part of the reason for that disparity is exactly what is highlighted in this article about Apple Computer. The US simply does an awful job of training workers for mid-level skilled occupations, with the exception of a few trades like carpentry, plumbing, iron working, auto repair, electrical installation, and cosmetology.

This is because the entire focus of the US education system is college prep, based on the fallacious idea that everyone can and should go to college. There is almost no attention at all given to vocational training, and the general sense is that if you don't graduate from college and work in a white collar job you are a failure.

In Germany however there are many specialized technical and vocational high schools, and entered most trades in Germany requires the completion of an apprenticeship program. Thus they have a very large and broad base of workers capable of undertaking the sort of mid-level skilled jobs referred to in the article about Apple. This model is under threat however, because various development organizations and public intellectuals keep noting the "problem" that Germany has far fewer college graduates as a share of its population than many other Western countries--especially the United States which "leads" in this dubious practice.

Obviously low labor costs are the number one reason for offshoring to poor countries, but remember that wages are only 20-30% of the cost of manufactured goods. When we're losing out in competition to industrialized countries with high wages, you can't point to wages as the reason.

If you talk to businessmen who have been working since at least the 1980s, they all talk about this. There was once an enormous pool of skilled blue collar workers in the United States, and they simply don't exist anymore. This has even led to a nationwide labor shortage in numerous skilled blue collar trades like machining and crane operation despite the Depression-level situation with unemployment in general in this country.

[WestIndianArchie]

(01-24-2012 08:58 AM)ColSpanker Wrote:  

Makerbot is a fun science fair project, but I don't see a lot of practical stuff coming out of it. The YouTube video is a much better representation of the direction 3D printing will take. I spent some time in this area with my company before getting left in the dust by developments in the field.

I disagree. If you're talking about game changing, it's going to be cheap makerbot type machines available to folks in their garages.

The 10,000-100,000 units do rapid prototyping jobs almost strictly for big mature industry, and that market is beyond mature. Imagine something as good as hot injection molding for 1/100th of the cost?

Cheap 3d printers today are like cheap personal computers in the 80's. As soon as you can hook together a spool of aluminum the way you do with ABS plastic, that's game over.

Just like the mini-mills did in the big steel mills, cheap and small will beat out big and expensive.

[bface]

(01-24-2012 03:23 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Tell that to the millions of displaced workers in 1st world countries.

Part of the problem is that most politicians think very simplistically about the economy, and economics, more so than any other academic discipline is subject to political manipulation.

So just because some people choose the wrong career path they deserve a job?

Many industries are looking desperately for people, IT for example. And they have been doing that for at least the last 8 years...

Do you guys in the US even have apprenticeships? Or is it college for everyone?

[Thorfinnsson]

Apprenticeship exists but is rare outside of skilled construction trades where it is the norm.

The situation is very different from German-speaking countries where apprenticeship is widespread.

Not everyone goes to a four year college, but that is the incredibly stupid goal of US educational policy. The Gates Foundation (Bill Gates' pointless charity) for instance is pushing for California school districts to mandate that all students meet the entry criteria of the University of California system, even though by law the UC system is only for the top one-eighth of high school graduates. The goal is impossible to achieve and is symptomatic of the US educational establishment's obsession with college.

[xmlenigma]

I know tons of people who were Art/ History majors. A lot of this has no practical usage in WORK/ CAREER market unless you go into ACADEMIA or specific fields.

The problem is VOCATIONAL v/s DEGREES.

Even thought in India tons of kids are pushed to take up a PROFESSIONAL DEGREE: Engg, Medecine, Architecture, MBA etc. A lot of the SYLABBUS & Courses are stupid.

Educational Systems ALL OVER the WORLD.. need to be RE-VAMPED.

It should be a good balance of: People & Life Skills + Technical/ Vocational + Business/ Ops / Finance/ Accounting/ Law.. That need to be taught to everyone as LIFE SKILLS. Spread somewhere between High School & Bachelors/ Under grad...

And more specialized classes with PROJECT BASED grading & INBUILT Internships/ Training in that field.

Yes, doesn't mean you take away all the beautiful arts, poetry etc out of the equation. Let that be there on the periphery of what people want to take up. And people who can USE them towards their ACADEMIC or ARTSY career goals.

Let the educational systems be more PRACTICAL, EVOLVING & FLEX-ADAPT-IBLE than how they've been stuck.

Educational & Learning systems are too rigid.

On the other hand, people working in Consulting, LEARN at CRAZY pace on the Job.. pretty much all that could be learnt.. from different SKILLS & COMPETENCIES