[Sir]

I want to provide a little background information before I get into the nuts and bolts of this post:

I'm of Persian descent, like Roosh, and a native of DC. I won't disclose where I'm living now because it's information that can easily be used to I.D. me, a risk given how high up this forum's threads are getting in Google search results nowadays (try it). I took the red pill in 2007 right before my 17th birthday when I was exposed to David DeAngelo, after accidentally clicking on a stray link, and buying "Double Your Dating". That got my foot in the door; months later I had the bright idea of Wikipedia-ing DeAngelo and subsequently found out about Mystery, Ross Jeffries, Neil Strauss, etc.; the doors blew open and my life completely changed.

I also stumbled across Roosh's blog accidentally, in 2009. Roosh helped me streamline my game and reform some of the negative attitudes I had built up about myself and people around me, especially with regards to victimization. His material on male self-improvement, feminism, and society were actually much more of an influence on my politics/worldview than my game. For all of my intelligent life I'd self-identified as a democratic socialist/bleeding-heart liberal, and around the same time I stumbled across this blog I also discovered Michelle Malkin, Bill O'Reilly's "Talking Points Memo", John Stossel, Phyllis Schlafly, "It Takes A Family" by Rick Santorum, and a little blog called "Chateau Heartiste". I now staunchly identify as a social/cultural conservative.

I was unnatractive for most of my life: Large, thick, catterpillar-like eyebrows; a round face; short legs; poor muscle structure; thick/matted/unworkable hair; unseemly facial hair (between the brows and about the lips). However, over the course of the last four years -- after a great deal of time, dedication, and surgery-free work -- the reverse has occurred. I am now considered extremely, extremely physically attractive by nearly everyone I meet, am told so immediately upon meeting, and am reminded frequently afterward.

Recently I was tipped off to a blog called "Real Made Men" by this forum, in a thread that addressed some of the disadvantages of being attractive. Prior to reading that thread and that blog I never recognized that game is and should be run very differently by attractive men that women are already naturally inclined to have sex with. Since I've taken the red pill I've shamelessly and brazenly practiced a super-tight brand of super-alpha/caveman game probably best reserved for average Joes. I never understood why so many women were intimidated by me to the point of hatred, assumed I was a player/jerk/asshole/douchebag/tool, and/or were inexplicably cold. I was "The Situation" when all I needed to be was "DJ Pauly D". So in the past week or so, I have dramatically toned things down. I will eventually report to you with results.

Now that I've introduced myself, my real problem -- and the point of this post -- is this: I was bullied viciously and mercilessly as a kid. I was dealing with physical disabilities at the time, unattractive, an academic overachiever, severely stunted in my social development due to having been raised in a fobby environment, and needy/unconfident. For a number of years I seriously considered suicide and wished every day that I didn't have to go to school. I was brutalized and tortured routinely, I had no one stand up for me in any meaningful way, and I had few friendships. My parents moved me to a different school before the 8th grade, where I benefitted from a fresh social environment but still went through a great deal of growing pains. In the still-blue-pill time that followed I grew to be very intelligent and socially aware but nevertheless a bitter, hateful, and anti-social person.

Now that I've reached the top of the mountain and grown a thousand-fold as a man, with all kinds of positive reinforcement and success with women, I realize I still have deep-seated psychological issues. And I know a lot of you are secretly nerds and ex-losers like me who have faced similar problems, so please don't moralize to me or approach this subject as some sort of too-specific anomaly. But I read about some of your experiences with women, your reports -- especially the thread you had a while back about "how to get laid on OkCupid" -- and how some of you get suddenly rejected after makeouts/great dates/emotional investment, and I just can't relate to it at all. When a woman rejects me after I've invested something in her, long after the approach/dating/even banging -- virtually anything short of an indication, subtle or overt, that she is willing to fall for me and/or enter a relationship -- it is an absolutely devastating and crushing experience that's probably the most unsavory aspect of game, to me, and pushes me to the brink of wanting to quit every time it happens. I take it very personally and am extremely hurt by it; I'm certain, though, that these feelings stem from an excessive need for approval that grew as a result of my having been bullied. Now, bear in mind, I have eliminated all approval-seeking behavior from my persona. I am the consummate alpha-dog wherever I am, whatever time of day. But I can't understand how all of you can be so immune to emotional letdowns from girls. I don't understand how you can prevent this from eating at you, even in the most extreme circumstances.

I have deep-rooted insecurities that never show but nevertheless exist and are an outgrowth of my having been bullied in my youth. Many men who idolize you people and read these posts and have "Roosh V" on their Favorites Bar are ex-omegas who deal with these same hangups. I and many other reasonable, intelligent people believe that the field of psychiatry is futile and useless, so don't patronize me with a phone number/email for a shrink. (I even took courses in psychiatric training in college to see what it was all about.) What are some of your suggestions, those of you who have been in the field a long time and have had meaningful relationships with women, for getting over intense emotional responses to the kind of rejection I'm talking about?

Roosh, if you read this: Yes, I'm that Persian guy from Twitter/email. Hopefully I'm not grossly overestimating your memory.

[Caligula]

Fear of rejection will really hold you back. Remember that your success rate will likely stay under 50% no matter how good you get. How much are you approaching? How much success are you having?

Three things helped me:

1) Getting rejected a lot. It gets easier. If you're not being rejected regularly you're not trying hard enough.

2) Having a lot of prospects going. One rejection means almost nothing when you have a lot of prospects.

3) Taking my ego out of the game. It looks like you're taking rejection as a hit to your ego. You're taking it too personally. In anything I do (not just game) I strive to remove ego and pride from the equation. Being realistic about your shortcomings is the only way to grow and develop in the long run.

If someone says something deeply offensive to me I wonder what made the person say that. What's their problem?

Realise that it's not YOU getting rejected. It's the impression you've given that person that's being rejected. It's a very incomplete image of you that's being rejected: an interaction of the impression you've given them with the girl's prejudices / perspective.

Maybe she's on her period, maybe she's pissed off at all men after her boyfriend cheated on her and gave her herpes. Who knows? It's not my problem.

This doesn't mean you should completely discount what they say to preserve your ego. Look at what you said and how you presented yourself.

Just remember that you can only control your half of the interaction. Her response will always be a wildcard and out of your control. So stop worrying so much about it.

[Sir]

I completely understand what you're saying, and those are all fine points. But for the particular type of rejection I'm referring to -- wherein you've taken out a girl a few times, banged, had a great deal of chemistry, and started to develop feelings, e.g. Roosh's "little egg", and have the girl suddenly go cold on you, for no apparent reason, and at an emotional cost -- I imagine that it must begin to wear on you. I think it would wear on even the most hardened, thoroughly misogynystic player. Those scenarios hit me much harder because of my past and because I happen to prefer entering steady relationships with women that result in at least the formation of a rotation, if not a single quality LTR -- I am not a fan of the same-day lay, an extremely empty and ungratifying exercise for me.

And to answer your question: I am frequently approached myself. In the past week or so -- since I've dropped asshole game -- of the women I meet and request their information (number, schedule this week), I have about a 95% success rate. I am flaked on about a quarter of the time after that. And I don't give a crap when numbers fall through... It's when I've developed feelings that I have a problem with the rejection. Alas, as I am a human being, I'm afraid I can't avoid developing such feelings in all or even most cases.

[Caligula]

Quote:

I happen to prefer entering steady relationships with women that result in at least the formation of a rotation, if not a single quality LTR -- I am not a fan of the same-day lay, an extremely empty and ungratifying exercise for me.

I'm not sure you're being honest with yourself. Why does rejection crush you? It's because you get very attached early on. You quickly start focusing on one girl, probably come across needy and it scares away the girls.

This is common when you first start having some success and has come up as a sticking point on the forum in the past.

95% success rate with success judged as what? First date bang?

[Sir]

(10-20-2011 07:57 AM)Caligula Wrote:  

Quote:

I happen to prefer entering steady relationships with women that result in at least the formation of a rotation, if not a single quality LTR -- I am not a fan of the same-day lay, an extremely empty and ungratifying exercise for me.

I'm not sure you're being honest with yourself. Why does rejection crush you? It's because you get very attached early on. You quickly start focusing on one girl, probably come across needy and it scares away the girls.

This is common when you first start having some success and has come up as a sticking point on the forum in the past.

95% success rate with success judged as what? First date bang?

That may be true, but I find that balancing 3-4 prospects at once generally prevents that. It's very difficult to avoid feeling attached whenever it strikes. I assume that the most important thing is being careful not to allow that attachment to leak through in your game.

But as Roosh always says: "Do not put her on a pedestal, bad game will leak through." His method of avoiding this is to simply become a misogynist. That's all good and fine, but not when you consider that the hard-ass bad boy attitude this entails has literally cost me more lays than I can count. Women simply cannot handle my appearance with the nonchalant assholery smeared on top. It scares the crap out of them. I was frequently told they were "intimidated" and always had to hear this nonsense: "Why are you with me?" Before meeting me -- just through observation -- they assume I am a player/asshole/jerk/douchebag, which I'm forced to spend the rest of the time disproving, if I have any interest in banging.

That high success rate refers to women showing clear interest after meeting me, readily sharing their phone number and availability, after GALNUC and a few of my apparently "dreamy smiles and nods" in the daytime. But obviously, no man is going to get a huge percentage of those oft-flaky oft-emotional women out on dates, and only a small percentage turn out to be a first-date bang. Banging ASAP is of course absolutely critical to solidifying your importance in an often man-juggling woman's life, and having any chance at a relationship. I couldn't give you numbers for night game as I never go out at night absent a group of attractive women and my boys; partially for the social proof, mostly to guarantee I get my dick wet. At night women in the US become entitled stuck-up bitches (beating a dead horse on this forum) and the same-night lay is king. Not my cup of tea.

Is there an alternative for attractive men that can't afford to be cavemen?

[Batata]

It's probably not just the fact that you were bullied that makes you so sensitive to rejection. I can guarantee that it has something to do with your Middle Eastern upbringing as well. Mideast culture is hypermasculine and prideful, for better for worse. Whether you realize it or not, attitudes of honor and high levels of personal esteem are embedded in you and, unfortunately for many kids like us, we must discover that the Mideast honor system is not compatible with American culture. It works for our parents because societies over there tend to be socially egalitarian (emphasis on "socially") and that's the only culture they know.

[OGNorCal707]

Interesting story, and situation, I think Caligula's advice is spot on, but it seems like there might be some other issues going on here.

To me it sounds like you might be "over compensating" and acting too "try hard" or "overly alpha", because you're coming from a place of insecurity deep down inside. It sounds like you've done a lot of work on yourself and overcome a lot of your issues, but it seems like these issues are deep-seated because of your past, and maybe lurking beneath the surface.

Some guys who were unconfident, insecure betas growing up, once they learn about game and realize that women are turned on by confident, aggressive men, that "lead", do a complete 180 and start acting like super macho dicks, and it just comes off as douchey, try-hard, and ultimately incongruent (I'm speaking from personal experience here).

Sounds like you just need to "calibrate" your game a little. If you're describing your vibe as being similar to the "situation" from jersey shore, I don't exactly think thats an attractive persona that most women will respond well too.

Also, another thing is it sounds like your accounts of yourself are somewhat incongruent, you say that you are "extremely" attractive and you have an extremely high close success rate, but yet it sounds like women are the ones holding power over you, rather than you over them. The guys that I know that are are considered "extremely attractive" always have a steady pipeline of cute women, and are more often the ones doing the dumping.

It does sound like you are possibly "pedestaling" these women, "over-investing", and scaring them off with "needy" vibes. It's unfortunate that you can't just be "real" in the modern dating world and be true with your intentions, but it has almost become universal that letting a woman know you are really into her, before she's really into you, translate into "needy" vibes that will turn her off from you.

Like you, I am also from Persian descent, I share a lot of your feelings and attitudes towards women as far, as wanting the deeper connection, feeling very hurt by rejection or flaking after having felt a strong "connection" with women, etc. Sometimes I wonder if it's something about our cultural heritage, maybe making us more "sensitive" and wanting to connect and bond with women... I have no clue.

Anways, good luck bro,sounds like you're on the right path, at least as far as game goes.

[Sir]

The pipeline of cute women will continue to be steady for me as long as I continue to get consistently approached, based on nothing but looks. If I wanted to just shut my mouth, smile, show up solo at the clubs, and run the "straight to the sack" game suggested by attractive-man blogs like "Real Made Men", I could get laid tonight, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday with different women -- with a little bit of effort and some luck of the draw/superb logistics -- relatively easily. "Stop talking, look at me, let's fuck." Of course I haven't actually said that, but I've done it before, and it works.

Since I'm more interested in forming a connection with the few high-quality women that will agree -- if I'm properly working the numbers and the odds and trying to get with as many as I meet -- to commit to a multiple-hour date and possible bang with me, I run into these problems. In the words of the all-seeing, all-knowing Herman Cain : "You have to make sure you're working on the right problem". I personally feel like my game is/was super-tight, even when I had the dial turned up on asshole. If I could give you an exact character representation of my persona with women, it would be George Clooney in "Up In The Air". Well-dressed, myseterious, witty, reserved, aloof. Except now I'm avoiding the "I'm too good/have too much status for you" act. It's hard to tell if the fact that the women I was meeting felt they were below me due to overgaming, or the fact that I have latent insecurities (though I go to great lengths not to show them), is the true cause of these emotional letdowns: Which one? Can it be both? I wonder if the incongruence between my once-in-a-blue-moon displays of weakness to women and my confidence/attractiveness is what makes women assume I'm simply wierd and that they need to leave. Ironically, it's those rare displays of weakness that ultimately convinces them I'm "real" and gets them to jump in the sack.