[nomadbrah]

Let's say a highly intelligent sociopath had manipulated a family member of yours for personal financial gain, while (perhaps) not doing anything directly illegal.

I'm talking legit sociopath here, clinical psychopath, probably not physically dangerous, but very dangerous otherwise (lying, manipulating, etc).

The challenge obviously is that any kind of appeals to fairness, sympathy or morality are meaningless.

What kind of options do you have? Have you had experience dealing with such people?

[Longshanks]

Nothing you can do if you're not willing to use violence.

[nomadbrah]

(11-06-2018 09:19 PM)Longshanks Wrote:  

Nothing you can do if you're not willing to use violence.

Expand?

[mcw78912]

One option would be to work with your family member who has been taken advantage of by the sociopath, and help the family member understand the deceit and manipulation that's going on. Sociopaths usually lack remorse and do not see the error of their ways, so it might be more difficult to get your message through to the sociopath.

[the.king]

(11-06-2018 09:13 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

Let's say a highly intelligent sociopath had manipulated a family member of yours for personal financial gain, while (perhaps) not doing anything directly illegal.

I'm talking legit sociopath here, clinical psychopath, probably not physically dangerous, but very dangerous otherwise (lying, manipulating, etc).

The challenge obviously is that any kind of appeals to fairness, sympathy or morality are meaningless.

What kind of options do you have? Have you had experience dealing with such people?

My rule of thumb response is to AMOG everyone I dislike - sociopath or not.

Make fun of them. Touch them. Grab them. Lower their status.

[HustleNomad]

(11-06-2018 09:13 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

Let's say a highly intelligent sociopath had manipulated a family member of yours for personal financial gain, while (perhaps) not doing anything directly illegal.

I'm talking legit sociopath here, clinical psychopath, probably not physically dangerous, but very dangerous otherwise (lying, manipulating, etc).

The challenge obviously is that any kind of appeals to fairness, sympathy or morality are meaningless.

What kind of options do you have? Have you had experience dealing with such people?

If you're biggish or have some training because the key to this is to mean it - Call up some of the boys too for good measure:

"Run into them" or pull them aside and explain that sometimes bad things happen to people who fuck with your family, and that they should probably stay away from x and walk away from this conversation right now.

I've had to deal with a few now, they seem to often operate in the realm of plausible deniability, kinda like a girl, and when you confront them they will sometimes try to play dumb or get "emotional" (all fake but can be quite convincing). You have to make it very clear you aren't buying their bullshit and they need to fuck right off - key is unshakeable frame and complete conviction in what you are saying. Assume they can read you like a book so you really need to be prepared to follow through.

You really can't reason with a sociopath so as Longshanks said, violence or the threat of is one of the only choices. If the sociopath continues to be involved (no matter how much you warn/educate the family member), it's just a matter of time before another incident because a sociopath is an expert manipulator.

Fuck anyone who fucks with your family, that bond is sacred. They need to fear for their life.

[nomadbrah]

(11-07-2018 08:08 AM)HustleNomad Wrote:  

I've had to deal with a few now, they seem to often operate in the realm of plausible deniability, kinda like a girl, and when you confront them they will sometimes try to play dumb or get "emotional" (all fake but can be quite convincing). You have to make it very clear you aren't buying their bullshit and they need to fuck right off - key is unshakeable frame and complete conviction in what you are saying. Assume they can read you like a book so you really need to be prepared to follow through.

Yes, this is exactly what has happened.

[ChicagoFire]

I've worked with people like this and this unfortunately is probably the best advice I would theoretically give. To clarify some people only respond to violence and don't respond to getting lectured or even to police showing up to their door. Relearn from your experience as some people are born fucked up or get a high from watching others suffer. Sorry OP.

(11-06-2018 09:19 PM)Longshanks Wrote:  

Nothing you can do if you're not willing to use violence.

[debeguiled]

(11-07-2018 08:49 AM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

(11-07-2018 08:08 AM)HustleNomad Wrote:  

I've had to deal with a few now, they seem to often operate in the realm of plausible deniability, kinda like a girl, and when you confront them they will sometimes try to play dumb or get "emotional" (all fake but can be quite convincing). You have to make it very clear you aren't buying their bullshit and they need to fuck right off - key is unshakeable frame and complete conviction in what you are saying. Assume they can read you like a book so you really need to be prepared to follow through.

Yes, this is exactly what has happened.

Tough call.

So many things can go wrong with this plan. Remember, they have manipulated your family member onto their side. If they tell the family member you have threatened them, it will now be the sociopath and your family member against you.

You could lose the sociopath and the family member, and is it worth that?

It's a real dilemma.

The only way to beat them may be to become like them, and do you want to do that?

They are probably better at it than you.

That's the problem with sociopaths, they can make other people do crazy things.

I have known a couple of these, women both of them, keeping their entire extended family in check by crybullying: Boss everyone around until someone stands up to them, and then they pretend to get cancer or threaten suicide.

In two cases, I have seen good, upright, solid family men get pushed to the point where they took the sociopath aside and offered to help her do the suicide right.

It didn't change anything except that these two dudes went against their own values, so the sociopath still won.

I don't know if your advice is carry out violence or to bluff convincingly, but this sounds like taking a fight with a great white shark from land to deep water.

I guess it depends on how much the sociopath is taking from the relative. I had a family member being manipulated by a sociopath female tenant, and all she did was pay less rent than she should have and take up space (storage) that she shouldn't have.

I tried to talk with the relative, but he was totally besotted with the much younger tenant and I realized it was hopeless and left it alone till the property was sold a few years later and she had to leave.

This is not an easy question. If it were me, and my relative were really being messed up, I would find a professional psychologist with experience with socipaths to guide me.

From what I remember, most experts say the only solution is to get as far away as possible.

I used to listen to a podcast about dealing with sociopaths by a criminal and forensic psychologist named Robert Schug, and he is easily found online, still teaching. Maybe you could contact him.

Here is his podcast:

https://www.podbean.com/site/EpisodeDown...8F3FDITEWF

Here is the website of the organization he is associated with:

http://aftermath-surviving-psychopathy.org/

Neither of these are being updated anymore, but you could probably find some answers there if you are willing to dig around a bit. You could almost certainly find someone to contact about your situation.

I would at least consult with someone like Schug before doing anything.

[gework]

That I can think of off the top of my head I've been embroiled with a full-blown psycho and a sociopath in a three way orgy of lies and crime.

Without any info, I would lean towards cutting them out of your and your family member's life.

From what I've seen people who engage in petty crime and manipulation within a social context are usually able to get away with it, keeping the material gains, but loosing their reputation. Which is why sociopaths and psychopaths have difficulty forming long relationships.

The psychopath I was embroiled with had moved through about five or six cities, leaving a trail of destruction, two broken marriages and semi-estranged kids. In the end the victims just want to get away from them and have nothing more to deal with it. It's pretty damaging to most people to have someone come into their life, become great friends or fall for them, only to find out they were running a con from the beginning. And the crimes they commit are generally too vague and undocumented to be worth dealing with on top of dealing with the betrayal. Do you want to take someone to a minor court who probably has no money when you might loose? It's a lot of hassle.

I was approached by some other guys this guy conned to join in their legal cause. He'd stolen big figures in cash and rewrote people's lives with his lies. I told them what's the point? The guy ran the same millionaire game on me before I found out his most expensive belonging was a £200 car. Within about a month he filled his 3rd wife's house with gas and was caught strangling her by a neighbour. He wanted to blow the house up and collect life and home insurance, probably $1-2M. He got carted off to the booby hatch where he hung himself. This was someone who repeatedly threatened to kill me. I didn't want to be anywhere near him. I cut my losses. Get these people out of your life as soon as possible.

However, I did manage to get my money back from the sociopath. I've detailed it in point 1) here, on some ideas with dealing with people when all you really have as tour words as leverage.

Sociopaths have quite an acute sense of their own morality. They commit a lot of bad acts and struggle to deal with the person they are. They hide that from themselves. If you can start to show them who they really are you might be able to get some restitution, but I wouldn't count on it.

[nomadbrah]

Thanks guys, particularly Gework and Debeguiled, you really both describe the situation perfectly.

I can't share too much, but the problem here is that "getting far away", is not really the question. The "crime" in question has to do with inheritance, particularly inheritance of things with great sentimental value, that this person treats as solely theirs, while it was never meant for them. They will also threaten to sell it off to strangers outside the family, which is pissing on the grave of my relatives.

The problem is that this psychopath is very intelligent and stays mostly within the law, while doing things that are morally abhorrent, yet not always illegal. We're talking plans hatched over a decade or more, working and manipulating, day by day, word by word, slowly and deliberate. I can only see the full scope of the evil now. I'm looking into some details regarding the inheritance as I think there might be a chance there. It depends on how far along in conning my relative it went before death.

What's crazy is that this psychopath seems completely content to live completely alone now and have no real contact with anyone. As the years went by, it became harder to keep up the mask in public, was beginning to get called out in public.

Still keeping up "appearances" with church and the like which is strictly to be able to present a plausible normal front. Why this extreme material greed, when there's no one to show it off to? No real need for it, when you're already secure economically?

I'm going to read both your suggestions carefully. I already concluded that I can't do this alone, I need help from people used to dealing with such people. I found a couple of counselors who specialize in this kind of stuff.

[Leonard D Neubache]

The violence option is very binary in its results. You have to go full Soprano (and obviously be capable of it) or the scumbag will sense your lack of conviction and plan accordingly.

The weakness of many sociopaths is their assumption that everyone is so much dumber than them.

Pose as a stranger through social media and flatter them. Coax them into bragging about their new mark or at least catch them in full braggadocio mode. If you can't manage that then don't talk about violence on the forum. I'm not saying don't talk about it. Just not on the forum.

[godfather dust]

If you plan to use intimation do it well (as others have said.) I do not advocate violence, period, but if you speak to them firmly you should roll deep so they know beef/retaliation is not wise.

Generally the way these things go is you would respond, then they respond, back and forth until someone is scared to death and backs down. So all in all, if you can get this individual out of your life WITHOUT any conflict, you should do so. "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind."

[BBinger]

(11-07-2018 05:15 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

Thanks guys, particularly Gework and Debeguiled, you really both describe the situation perfectly.

I can't share too much, but the problem here is that "getting far away", is not really the question. The "crime" in question has to do with inheritance, particularly inheritance of things with great sentimental value, that this person treats as solely theirs, while it was never meant for them. They will also threaten to sell it off to strangers outside the family, which is pissing on the grave of my relatives.

The problem is that this psychopath is very intelligent and stays mostly within the law, while doing things that are morally abhorrent, yet not always illegal. We're talking plans hatched over a decade or more, working and manipulating, day by day, word by word, slowly and deliberate. I can only see the full scope of the evil now. I'm looking into some details regarding the inheritance as I think there might be a chance there. It depends on how far along in conning my relative it went before death.

What's crazy is that this psychopath seems completely content to live completely alone now and have no real contact with anyone. As the years went by, it became harder to keep up the mask in public, was beginning to get called out in public.

Still keeping up "appearances" with church and the like which is strictly to be able to present a plausible normal front. Why this extreme material greed, when there's no one to show it off to? No real need for it, when you're already secure economically?

I'm going to read both your suggestions carefully. I already concluded that I can't do this alone, I need help from people used to dealing with such people. I found a couple of counselors who specialize in this kind of stuff.

Your best bet is probably going to be a combination of a lawyer and a private investigator if the value lost is worth the cost of pursuing. If it isn't worth pursuing this way your most solid course of action is hitting his reputation at every opportunity. Consult a copywriter or experienced internet troll with the details for a maximally damaging way to frame his offense.

The violent solution sounds a lot like fedposting when people egg it on, but if you do go that route 9 inch linesman pliers can do a lot of hurt. It's a very high risk low reward pursuit. If you had the prerequisites to carry out violent solution, you wouldn't have to ask a forum for advice.

By contrast if the thing of value is a moveable item and a private investigator offers you a location... possession is 9/10ths of the law. The item gets plucked and you or your relative recovered stolen property.