[Luther]

I'm planning to travel to the cheaper parts of Europe this fall and stay as long as I can. I have twenty grand Canadian set aside for the trip. I'd visit the baltics, Balkans and former Soviet Union, for the sake of keeping costs low. Can some of you with first hand knowledge give me insight on cost of living/how long I can expect my money to last. I won't be going to clubs and partying, just want to explore. So I'll be spending on basic cost of living plus travel costs.

[Ringo]

Take a look at Expatistan's ranking, this should help you start your research.

Bottom of the list:

Quote:

94thSarajevo (Bosnia and Herzegovina)80
95thCluj-Napoca (Romania)76
96thSkopje (Macedonia)75
97thTimisoara (Romania)73
98thChişinău (Moldova)73
99thKiev (Ukraine)68
100thMinsk (Belarus)67
101stNovosibirsk (Russia)63
102ndLviv (Ukraine)60
103rdKharkiv (Ukraine)58

[LINUX]

Hard to say. I spend as little as 1,500 a month, and as much as 3,000 depending on what I do, where I go, and how often I go out.

Staying in one place for 3 months or so is the way to go. If you don't want that, that's fine, but understand that you will spend more money traveling to another location, flights, bags, repaying airbnb booking and cleaning fees, ubers to and from the airport and having to rebuy condiments that you do not travel with- oil, sauces, ketchup, mustard, toilet paper, shampoo, soap etc.

If I really had to save money I could live off $1,000 by using hostels and eating shitty food like ham sandwiches and chicken breast but my life would be miserable, so for me to have a lifestyle I enjoy of good food / gyms / ubers / etc, I budget 2500 USD a month.

[droughtmeat]

own room in shared apartment: 350 to 550 euros a month via airbnb
balanced diet cooked by yourself: 10 to 15 euros a day / 300 to 350 a month (somehow more expensive in poorer countries)
most 2 way flights in Europe booked one week in advance: 120 to 300 euros (cheaper during the week, more expensive on weekends)
Monthly public transport ticket valid within your city 35 to 80 Euros (more expensive in richer countries)

The costs really pile up once you want your own apartment in the city center, want to eat at restaurants as often as possible, fly first class, take ubers and taxis instead of using public transport, want expensive gyms with saunas and a personal trainer etc.

[DaveR]

What do you wish to explore? Do you mean nature or cities? There's nothing of interest nature-wise in or around Moscow, St. Petersburg, Kiev, Minsk or the Baltics - they're all built on flat, featureless plains. For mountains and coastline, you'll need to go South.

Cities of note in the Ukraine are Kiev and Lvov (which is identical to any other Polish city, so if you've been to Poland, don't bother).

In Russia: Moscow, St. Petersburg and the Golden Ring of historic towns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Ring

If you want to see a lot of cities:
- start in Moscow
- train to St. Petersburg: https://www.tutu.travel/poezda/
- bus to Tallinn: https://luxexpress.eu/
- bus to Riga: https://luxexpress.eu/
- bus to Vilnius: https://luxexpress.eu/
- fly to Kiev on Ryanair or Wizz Air
- fly to Bucharest or Sofia on Windrose

For taxis in Russia, use taxi.yandex.ru. In the Ukraine you can use Uber or Yandex. In the Baltics - Uber.

There's nothing in of interest* in Belarus other than blonde slavic-germanic pussy. The terrain is featureless and the entire country was destroyed in WWII.
* unless you're particularly interested in Soviet concrete architecture

Russia isn't really cheap. The Ukraine can be if you stay long-term.

[Luther]

Thanks for the great info so far guys. I know there are lots of variables, I simply like to travel to new places to see how the people live. I'm not looking for anything specific. The most important things to me are inexpensive living, and the ability to get by with English.
Thanks for turning me onto expatistans site Ringo, awesome resource, especially since I'm not even set on Europe.

[DaveR]

(08-13-2018 04:00 PM)Luther Wrote:  

the ability to get by with English

English proficiency is high in the Baltics, low in Russia and the Ukraine, and medium in the Bakans.

For cost and quality of living, you're better off sticking to the Balkans, especially in Winter when all of the food in the North is imported or grown in greenhouses.

Culture-wise, there's really nothing to see in the Baltics - they're fully westernised.

You'll be hard-pressed to see into Russian life without Russian.

[gework]

I lived in Serbia for three months for around $600 for the whole three months. It's cheaper in the south. Places like Zaječar, Pirot and Niš.

The reason I was able to do it so cheap is I knew someone who knew someone who had a house that was empty that I got for 60 euros per month and 10 euros for electricity. So that left about $5 per day. And you can do quite a lot with that in Serbia. Going to the farmers' market you can come back with four heaving bags full of organsko fruit, vegetables, homemade cheese for about $10 in high summer. For big more you can get a big bag of nuts, a bottle of mead and a jar of homemade honey.

You can get a kilo of strawberries for 1 euro.

But you can get plenty of cheap apartments or houses to rent here. There are lots in the $100-$200 range:

https://srbija-nekretnine.org/serbia-pro...arch/quick

You may have to pay a bit more to get it for a three month period.

Taxis are about $0.50 per KM if they are honest.

[Luther]

This is awesome you guys. Great info from all of you. Thanks.

[Akwesi]

In third-tier Ukraine (city of, say, 100,000 people) you could live a very decent lifestyle for 1k a month and stay for a year or more on what you've saved up. Whether it's a good idea is of course a different matter.

[MongolianAbroad]

(08-13-2018 06:17 PM)gework Wrote:  

I lived in Serbia for three months for around $600 for the whole three months. It's cheaper in the south. Places like Zaječar, Pirot and Niš.

The reason I was able to do it so cheap is I knew someone who knew someone who had a house that was empty that I got for 60 euros per month and 10 euros for electricity. So that left about $5 per day. And you can do quite a lot with that in Serbia. Going to the farmers' market you can come back with four heaving bags full of organsko fruit, vegetables, homemade cheese for about $10 in high summer. For big more you can get a big bag of nuts, a bottle of mead and a jar of homemade honey.

You can get a kilo of strawberries for 1 euro.

But you can get plenty of cheap apartments or houses to rent here. There are lots in the $100-$200 range:

https://srbija-nekretnine.org/serbia-pro...arch/quick

You may have to pay a bit more to get it for a three month period.

Taxis are about $0.50 per KM if they are honest.

Damn.

How fast was your wifi? Or were you basically "camping," except in a house?

[MongolianAbroad]

(08-13-2018 06:34 PM)Akwesi Wrote:  

In third-tier Ukraine (city of, say, 100,000 people) you could live a very decent lifestyle for 1k a month and stay for a year or more on what you've saved up. Whether it's a good idea is of course a different matter.

You'd have to make visa runs though, and those costs would add up, if not in cash, in time at least.

[DaveR]

(08-13-2018 06:41 PM)Spaniard88 Wrote:  

(08-13-2018 06:34 PM)Akwesi Wrote:  

In third-tier Ukraine (city of, say, 100,000 people) you could live a very decent lifestyle for 1k a month and stay for a year or more on what you've saved up. Whether it's a good idea is of course a different matter.

You'd have to make visa runs though, and those costs would add up, if not in cash, in time at least.

Assuming you could pass as a local (otherwise you'll get document checked by the Police a lot), just ignore it: http://everlegal.ua/what-to-expect-if-yo...in-ukraine

A $30 fine isn't going to kill anyone.

Absolute worst case, you get banned for three years.

[Johnnyvee]

(08-13-2018 06:17 PM)gework Wrote:  

I lived in Serbia for three months for around $600 for the whole three months. It's cheaper in the south. Places like Zaječar, Pirot and Niš.

The reason I was able to do it so cheap is I knew someone who knew someone who had a house that was empty that I got for 60 euros per month and 10 euros for electricity. So that left about $5 per day. And you can do quite a lot with that in Serbia. Going to the farmers' market you can come back with four heaving bags full of organsko fruit, vegetables, homemade cheese for about $10 in high summer. For big more you can get a big bag of nuts, a bottle of mead and a jar of homemade honey.

You can get a kilo of strawberries for 1 euro.

But you can get plenty of cheap apartments or houses to rent here. There are lots in the $100-$200 range:

https://srbija-nekretnine.org/serbia-pro...arch/quick

You may have to pay a bit more to get it for a three month period.

Taxis are about $0.50 per KM if they are honest.

Great info, thx.
How easy (or hard) was it to get by just with English though? I assume that you don`t speak Serbian. Also, did you feel that locals where friendly/open minded towards foreigners. (Girls in particular.)

[rudebwoy]

Instead of wondering which places have high English proficiency, why not learn another language.

If I were young and had $20K, I would learn Russian in Ukraine or Belarus. A former forum member attended a university in Belarus for a few months to learn the language.

French would be my preference, but that would be expensive.

[Luther]

I read that thread. I've read a lot of the threads. If I was going to put effort into learning a language it would be Spanish. I would prob take to French quickly. Given that I learned the basics in middle school and it's written on everything in Canada.

[MongolianAbroad]

(08-13-2018 06:52 PM)DaveR Wrote:  

(08-13-2018 06:41 PM)Spaniard88 Wrote:  

(08-13-2018 06:34 PM)Akwesi Wrote:  

In third-tier Ukraine (city of, say, 100,000 people) you could live a very decent lifestyle for 1k a month and stay for a year or more on what you've saved up. Whether it's a good idea is of course a different matter.

You'd have to make visa runs though, and those costs would add up, if not in cash, in time at least.

Assuming you could pass as a local (otherwise you'll get document checked by the Police a lot), just ignore it: http://everlegal.ua/what-to-expect-if-yo...in-ukraine

A $30 fine isn't going to kill anyone.

Absolute worst case, you get banned for three years.

Great info!

[DaveR]

(08-13-2018 08:43 PM)Spaniard88 Wrote:  

(08-13-2018 06:52 PM)DaveR Wrote:  

(08-13-2018 06:41 PM)Spaniard88 Wrote:  

(08-13-2018 06:34 PM)Akwesi Wrote:  

In third-tier Ukraine (city of, say, 100,000 people) you could live a very decent lifestyle for 1k a month and stay for a year or more on what you've saved up. Whether it's a good idea is of course a different matter.

You'd have to make visa runs though, and those costs would add up, if not in cash, in time at least.

Assuming you could pass as a local (otherwise you'll get document checked by the Police a lot), just ignore it: http://everlegal.ua/what-to-expect-if-yo...in-ukraine

A $30 fine isn't going to kill anyone.

Absolute worst case, you get banned for three years.

Great info!

Just double checked... they changed the fines in July. The last change was in 2012. If anyone wants to check in the future, the relevant article in the administrative codex is here: https://urist-ua.net/%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B4%...D1%8F_203/

It's now 100 to 300 tax-free income units. The tax-free income unit is currently 17 UAH, so that makes the fine 1700-5100 UAH, or at today's rate: $64-$187.

Still, if you're planning to stay for a year, that isn't a big cost compared to screwing around with flights.

If you take the train out, they might offer a cheaper option.

[DarkTriad]

(08-13-2018 03:44 PM)DaveR Wrote:  

What do you wish to explore? Do you mean nature or cities? There's nothing of interest nature-wise in or around Moscow, St. Petersburg, Kiev, Minsk or the Baltics - they're all built on flat, featureless plains. For mountains and coastline, you'll need to go South.

Cities of note in the Ukraine are Kiev and Lvov (which is identical to any other Polish city, so if you've been to Poland, don't bother).

In Russia: Moscow, St. Petersburg and the Golden Ring of historic towns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Ring

If you want to see a lot of cities:
- start in Moscow
- train to St. Petersburg: https://www.tutu.travel/poezda/
- bus to Tallinn: https://luxexpress.eu/
- bus to Riga: https://luxexpress.eu/
- bus to Vilnius: https://luxexpress.eu/
- fly to Kiev on Ryanair or Wizz Air
- fly to Bucharest or Sofia on Windrose

For taxis in Russia, use taxi.yandex.ru. In the Ukraine you can use Uber or Yandex. In the Baltics - Uber.

There's nothing in of interest* in Belarus other than blonde slavic-germanic pussy. The terrain is featureless and the entire country was destroyed in WWII.
* unless you're particularly interested in Soviet concrete architecture

Russia isn't really cheap. The Ukraine can be if you stay long-term.

I'm getting a forced retirement in a few weeks, and I was going to give a go at seeing if I can survive on a small American pension. instead of starting over in the rat race in the West. I had been assuming Thailand but (on paper at least) the Ukraine seems just as doable. Is this actually possible, or just a quirk of the Expatistan software?

[Westcoast99]

What are the best value Mediterranean cities in the winter season that also are not completely dead? (Previously went to Andalusia in January, curious how Italy, The Balkans, and Greece would compare). I can only travel mid Decemeber to mid February due to my job.

[DaveR]

(08-13-2018 10:01 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  

I'm getting a forced retirement in a few weeks, and I was going to give a go at seeing if I can survive on a small American pension. instead of starting over in the rat race in the West. I had been assuming Thailand but (on paper at least) the Ukraine seems just as doable. Is this actually possible, or just a quirk of the Expatistan software?

Good question. It depends a lot on what kind of lifestyle you're looking for. Do you need to be near the water? What kind of climate do you prefer? Do you prefer city life, or getting out into the countryside? Big or small city?

One major issue is language: I've spent over a decade in the region and can't say I've ever met anyone who I would say lived comfortably without knowing Russian.
I know one Irish businessman in Moscow who lives reasonably, but he has a personal driver who does a lot for him, his wife speaks English fluently, and he spends a lot of time on the Russian expat forums asking questions. He's really not integrated at all.
Most of the universities offer courses for beginners, and the material and methodology is really first-rate. Education is one thing the Soviets got right.

Food isn't great, especially in restaurants. Local produce gets better and the recipes lower in carbohydrates the further South you go. You could pay an old babushka to cook and clean - just dictate no carbs and no Soviet processed concoctions (or you'll be eating meat in jelly or boiled condensed milk).

If it isn't too personal, what kind of monthly budget are you looking at? Would you buy a place or rent? What kind of living space do you find comfortable - urban or suburban? apartment or house? and how much room?

If you're planning on living somewhere long-term, I think you would want to do it legally, otherwise you can't really own anything - the risk of being banned and not being able to access your stuff is too high.
I don't know anything about long-term visas in the Ukraine. The best option would be to contact the following company, thell them you're a retiree and ask what your options are: http://www.bbcu.com.ua/
Russia is much easier for Americans to stay in long-term. You can easily get a 3-year visa, which allows stays of up to six months. At the six month mark, you only need to cross the border and come straight back, even on the same day.

Living in smaller cities (without a subway) isn't really comfortable without a car. They can be registered by non-residents in Georgia (the country) without too much effort and without any ongoing registration taxes - only their moderate import taxes have to be paid, and only once. Otherwise you could ship a car from the US and keep paying your state registration to keep the registration valid.

[DarkTriad]

My onely lifestyle requirement is that I be near a quality martial arts school.


I got around fine in Thailand with Google translate, and I assume I would pick up the language quickly using it every day.

[DaveR]

(08-13-2018 11:36 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  

My onely lifestyle requirement is that I be near a quality martial arts school.

Fighting (both pro and drunken varieties) is popular in Russia. You shouldn't have any trouble finding a place.

(08-13-2018 11:36 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  

I got around fine in Thailand with Google translate, and I assume I would pick up the language quickly using it every day.

Google Translate works, but to learn the language you would definitely need to hit the books or go on a course. The language is very heavy in grammar... you'll make absolutely no sense without it. Getting the basics of the grammar takes about six months of intensive study as long as you concentrate on learning rather than banging the teacher as I did.


As an example, a 2000 sq.ft house lets for $600/month in a good part of Stavropol (third-tier city in the south, close to mountains, lakes and good weather by Russian standards):
https://www.avito.ru/stavropol/doma_dach...1486227914

Fuel is about the same price as in the US. Clothes are expensive in Russia. Medical is cheap, although the quality might be limited in such a small city; if you need good medical, you'd be better off in a large 2nd-tier city.

[DaveR]

If you can sort out a long-term visa, you could rent a ~1500sq.ft apartment in the center of Odessa for about $600/month also. It's a nice city, probably quite busy in Summer because it's a popular tourist destination.

[BlackFriar]

Luther,

Good luck on your trip. Check out Tallinn, Estonia. The best time to go is very end of June-mid August. Go airbnb route.