[nomadbrah]

I think the best position to be in is to be smart and work a trade.

There's a lot of dumbasses in trade, let's be honest, cause everyone in my generation were pushed into academic education.

I was thinking this the other day. If society collapses, what use is online marketing or coding? Not much.

Nope, I'd like to have learned a trade. Then market it using video, social media, websites, SEO.

It's maybe 1 in a 1000 tradies who get the very basics of marketing, branding, customer identification etc. You can really clean up if you know how to market as a tradie.

[roberto]

(08-12-2018 05:50 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

I think the best position to be in is to be smart and work a trade.

There's a lot of dumbasses in trade, let's be honest, cause everyone in my generation were pushed into academic education.

I was thinking this the other day. If society collapses, what use is online marketing or coding? Not much.

Nope, I'd like to have learned a trade. Then market it using video, social media, websites, SEO.

It's maybe 1 in a 1000 tradies who get the very basics of marketing, branding, customer identification etc. You can really clean up if you know how to market as a tradie.

Yes, but then you become a businessman, not a tradie. I spent far less time on the tools than I did when I started. Not neccesarily a bad thing, but something to be aware of.

I'm at a kind of 'sweet spot' now whereby I have a lot of tools, and can go out with a guy or two most days and make £300-500 after wages depending upon whether I have a second man and machine or team out. The question now is whether to scale or specialise. I'm leaning towards scale, but it comes with a whole other set of issues and a short to medium term drop in profits as you hire the right people.

[Shimmy]

Great post, for those of you who didn't read or comprehend it just work your ass off on something and put 110% into it instead of searching for that next magical idea that will make you rich without actually taking any action.

[Chase]

(08-09-2018 10:28 AM)asdfk Wrote:  

Turns out putting in all those hours with uncertainty of success does not bode well with my neurotic personality. I fear I’m wasting my time and my youthful vigor on a project that I do not like that much and is just a way to build an asset that churns out dollar bills.

Many thanks, everyone, for this outstanding thread. Isolation and doubt are also my biggest challenges since running my own business. They suck energy and can make you unahappy. Not being able to share successes and failures is another thing.

How are you all handling and counteracting this?

An office/coworking space to be in the company of people (even if you don't work with them) helps me.
Regular phone calls/exchange with other business owners, some of them good friends, are super useful.
And, of course, all the basics like gym, good eating and regular sleep at a reasonable time are crucial to keep yourself energized, productive and in a good mental state.

[2 Cool 4 U]

It's not just about making money, you need to learn how to save too. Just incase if you make little profit or you feel like you need to get away and take a break

[2 Cool 4 U]

(08-02-2018 12:25 PM)Disco_Volante Wrote:  

The years of isolation is the tough part that grinds you. Most people think persistence is like 6 months but when you're 3.5 years into a business with little to show for it, it's very difficult to keep trying. You need an extreme desire to be self employed to put up with the pain of that, watching yourself age 4 years chasing a dream.

If you have a traditional job, it takes a huge amount of effort and commitment to wake up every morning to go to work, put up with a boss, and deal with a toxic work environment. It takes a huge amount of desire to put up with that

[GT777733]

(09-12-2018 02:14 PM)2 Cool 4 U Wrote:  

It's not just about making money, you need to learn how to save too. Just incase if you make little profit or you feel like you need to get away and take a break

100% agree.

I've been putting most of my profits away in my savings account to invest down the road.

The one exception to this is if you know your business model really well (the risks and the upside) and you can make way more money re-investing back into the business than you can by taking it out.

I also admit I haven't experienced a recession yet in business. Will be an interesting experience when it comes.

[GT777733]

(09-12-2018 02:22 PM)2 Cool 4 U Wrote:  

(08-02-2018 12:25 PM)Disco_Volante Wrote:  

The years of isolation is the tough part that grinds you. Most people think persistence is like 6 months but when you're 3.5 years into a business with little to show for it, it's very difficult to keep trying. You need an extreme desire to be self employed to put up with the pain of that, watching yourself age 4 years chasing a dream.

If you have a traditional job, it takes a huge amount of effort and commitment to wake up every morning to go to work, put up with a boss, and deal with a toxic work environment. It takes a huge amount of desire to put up with that

Hmmm. I definitely understand where you are coming from.

I've experienced all 3 - success in business, struggle in business and working a traditional job.

As bad as a traditional job can be in terms of the monotony and feeling trapped and dealing with the politics - the one thing you know at the end of the day (unless you are in a performance based job and you aren't performing), is that you will definitely get paid for the work you put in.

Whatever happens - you can bank that cash and use it in the future. You can even go find another job.

It's not your business so you don't have to deal with all the behind the scenes stuff - you can take the money and run.

You also turn up to work everyday and there are people around and you have a boss and management that keep you on track.

It's close to impossible to explain what it feels like in business when you first start and you don't know what you're doing and things aren't working, or when you are a year or several years in and you haven't succeeded yet.

You aren't getting paid, you're isolated, you feel dumb and you start crucifying yourself, your mind starts wondering and thinking about what you could have done with your life instead of putting all this time into this pursuit that hasn't worked out.

The bills keep coming, you keep working harder, you keep getting more depressed and unhealthy (mentally and physically) - it's so easy to get on a downward spiral very fast if you don't have a plan, keep checking in with yourself and keep yourself moving forward.

In short - everything is on you. If you don't get paid or something goes wrong, whether it's your fault or not - you are the only one you can blame at the end of the day.

As an example, I had 20k that I was owed the other month which essentially got voided (for reasons I can't go into here) between my payer and my bank. It got super messy and I spent a week staying up stupidly late working it out (got no sleep and productivity nosedived). I'm told it's sorted out now - but it still hasn't hit my bank account - so I'm just working and essentially waiting for it to come through.

I've also heard horror stories of guys being denied up to 50-100k of earnings from some clients and affiliate programs that was never eventually given to them.

This stuff all eats into your social/personal life and your sanity.

The uncertainty sometimes can make you feel like you're just floating in life not knowing where you are going sometimes - which makes it hard to plan things or communicate things with people and potential dating partners (I've lost at least a couple of girls because they didn't want to take on how unconventional and unpredictable my life was at the time I met them, and I don't blame them).

I'd be lying if I didn't say I didn't have regular depression at certain stages, and even thoughts of why am I living this life anymore if this business stuff isn't working out/it's so hard and stressful, and I can't go back to employment because it makes me sick with anxiety.

That's the part people never talk about on Instagram and YouTube because you can't sell that, and most people want to distance themselves from all the ugly and depressive times and experiences - it's heavy energy to deal with that brings people down.

Having said all that, I'd still re-hash:
1) Business is certainly great once you stick at it and work it out - it's like anything - you can learn over time to improve massively and callous your brain to all the seemingly high pressure stuff
2) Everyone is going to find success at different things. A traditional job might be way better for some people. It depends on who you are and your circumstances - and also what you want out of life in the short and long term

[Luther]

Like Roberto said, You can bank on $500 a day as a skilled tradesman. Time is your limiting factor, not marketing. If you’re good then you’ll have all the business you have time for, through word of mouth.
And scaling requires massive overhead with employees salaries, fleets of vehicles, a shop, tools to outfit several crews...
If you scale hard you may get caught when construction dips with the national and local economy.
By all means, learn a skilled trade, but it has limitations. I would do things as I’ve done... I work alone. I can make high five figures a year working on my own terms, taking whatever days off I want, and when I take off my tool pouch the day and it’s worries are over.

[Rorogue]

@Op

Such a high value post. I'm 29 and starting on my journey to be financially successful. This helped a lot.

Thanks

[2 Cool 4 U]

(09-13-2018 02:25 AM)GT777733 Wrote:  

As bad as a traditional job can be in terms of the monotony and feeling trapped and dealing with the politics - the one thing you know at the end of the day (unless you are in a performance based job and you aren't performing), is that you will definitely get paid for the work you put in.

But then one person is in control of your source of income, and can cut you off at the drop of a dime. And you have no money coming in until you find another job or start a business.

[GT777733]

(09-18-2018 01:06 AM)2 Cool 4 U Wrote:  

(09-13-2018 02:25 AM)GT777733 Wrote:  

As bad as a traditional job can be in terms of the monotony and feeling trapped and dealing with the politics - the one thing you know at the end of the day (unless you are in a performance based job and you aren't performing), is that you will definitely get paid for the work you put in.

But then one person is in control of your source of income, and can cut you off at the drop of a dime. And you have no money coming in until you find another job or start a business.

Every man (and person in general) needs to get to a point where they understand and accept three things about employment and finances:

1. You should have a savings fund (I suggest 10 to 20k) for emergencies such as health and unemployment related events that will tide you over in case you need to live off savings for a while

2. You should start working on a second stream of income today. Whether that is active (a side hustle) or passive (bank interest, investing, assets etc.), or both. Having one income stream is not wise the older you get

3. If you are put out of your job that easily - you are either in the wrong industry or you aren't valuable or skilled enough to your company. My advice would be to find an industry that you thrive in, you have some strengths in/you feel competent in, and you want to become really good at. Immerse yourself in that industry, up skill yourself as much as possible and push for really good results. If you get results in your job, it is insanely easy to get another job if you put these results on your CV/resume. Once I started doing this - I was never out of a job - I had companies competing to employ me. I should note though that I went through several different industries before finding marketing and business - so there can be a lot of failure involved before you reach this point

My three notes on the above are:

1. You can't go out and become really good at what you do or build up significant second streams of income over night. Like everything worth it in life - it takes time. So, have a long term mind set and be patient to see results

2. Sometimes a company can outsource entire departments overseas to cheap labor, or you really do just get unlucky with becoming unemployed. This is why picking the right industry (with lots of employment opportunities that you can go to if one goes bad), and becoming good at what you do is so important

3. Do you have to do what I said? Of course not. If you want to spend your time just counting down the clock at work and just getting by for average effort, and playing video games, watching movies/Netflix, travelling, chasing girls or doing other things with your time - that is a choice every man has the freedom to make himself. BUT, if you don't want to sacrifice and spending time doing things you don't want to do, you don't have right to complain when things don't go the way you want them to, or you never feel like life is turning out how you want it to.
Pick a balance that works for you, and live with the results.
It's not always one or the other too. Once you build up finances and experience and momentum with your career and money - you have minimised your risk going forward and you can spend more time doing things you really want to do as well

[Easy_C]

(09-14-2018 04:12 AM)Luther Wrote:  

Like Roberto said, You can bank on $500 a day as a skilled tradesman. Time is your limiting factor, not marketing. If you’re good then you’ll have all the business you have time for, through word of mouth.
And scaling requires massive overhead with employees salaries, fleets of vehicles, a shop, tools to outfit several crews...
If you scale hard you may get caught when construction dips with the national and local economy.
By all means, learn a skilled trade, but it has limitations. I would do things as I’ve done... I work alone. I can make high five figures a year working on my own terms, taking whatever days off I want, and when I take off my tool pouch the day and it’s worries are over.

This is curiousity rather than criticism, but I'm interested to know where you get the $500 figure. Is that something you're seeing in your local market or is it a data derived number?

[skptc]

I think this thread could demotivate a lot of people.

I do online business I don't even have to get out of bed and make 12-15k in monthly personal income. It took me a few years to get to this stage but I didn't have to grind alone for 12+ hours a day. I basically worked a standard work day often times in the company of friends on the same journey.

This income is likely to last at least a few more years (business is still growing) and I will probably sell at some stage which should earn me around a 500k payday.

If you have to grind hard for several years to get to 10k a month it simply means you have chosen a difficult/low profit business model. The guys that I know grinding away and working much harder than me aren't doing it to make 10k a month... they are making 100-300k a month or building an asset that can be sold for 8+ figures.

Content based businesses are always difficult. I recommend selling information products, productized services, print on demand, branded eCommerce, high ticket dropshipping, software, affiliate marketing, lead gen (depending on where your proclivities lie).

[sterlingarcher]

Slightly off topic, but right thread...

Anyone got any experience offering email marketing?

[Stickman]

What @skptc said. Are you still grinding as much as you did even a year ago? I didn't have to go through that myself when I first started but everyone is different and we all take a different path. Some get lucky and chose a more profitable niche etc...

You mentioned you don't have employees. Maybe now is a good time to outsource. I have a programmer friend. He makes 15k/month as an employee and he didn't have to sacrificed his dating life or slumping it out. My point is, its fine to grind it out when you first started but after a couple years if you're not scaling and be more hands off and enjoy your life. What's the point?

[nomadbrah]

(09-19-2018 01:13 AM)skptc Wrote:  

Content based businesses are always difficult. I recommend selling information products, productized services, print on demand, branded eCommerce, high ticket dropshipping, software, affiliate marketing, lead gen (depending on where your proclivities lie).

The major difference here is that those business models usually require a substantial amount of capital.

The guerilla model of content+traffic=income is something everyone can do with no expenses except hosting.

I'm not sure how many make it into full time income in the fields you mentioned, I'd think the success rate is even less than content based business, however there's probably more people who make 5 figures within 1-2 years.

[TheScientist]

interesting thread

[skptc]

Capital helps no doubt. But most online businesses can be started optimally with 20-50k which can be saved up in a few years. I saved up this amount working in the military for 4 years living super frugally.

I am not saying more can't help and speed up the growth curve but it is not absolutely necessary.

All of the business models I stated require very little capital in fact (except for software if you are non-technical). Even ~10k is enough as long as you have some available credit for scaling your ads. If you don't then you can easily find someone to finance your ads after you have some traction.

I started my software business with $0. I convinced a developer friend to work for equity and getting paid the first $XX,XXX in revenue.

There is always a way.

(09-19-2018 02:47 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

(09-19-2018 01:13 AM)skptc Wrote:  

Content based businesses are always difficult. I recommend selling information products, productized services, print on demand, branded eCommerce, high ticket dropshipping, software, affiliate marketing, lead gen (depending on where your proclivities lie).

The major difference here is that those business models usually require a substantial amount of capital.

The guerilla model of content+traffic=income is something everyone can do with no expenses except hosting.

I'm not sure how many make it into full time income in the fields you mentioned, I'd think the success rate is even less than content based business, however there's probably more people who make 5 figures within 1-2 years.

[Luther]

(09-18-2018 08:36 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

(09-14-2018 04:12 AM)Luther Wrote:  

Like Roberto said, You can bank on $500 a day as a skilled tradesman. Time is your limiting factor, not marketing. If you’re good then you’ll have all the business you have time for, through word of mouth.
And scaling requires massive overhead with employees salaries, fleets of vehicles, a shop, tools to outfit several crews...
If you scale hard you may get caught when construction dips with the national and local economy.
By all means, learn a skilled trade, but it has limitations. I would do things as I’ve done... I work alone. I can make high five figures a year working on my own terms, taking whatever days off I want, and when I take off my tool pouch the day and it’s worries are over.

This is curiousity rather than criticism, but I'm interested to know where you get the $500 figure. Is that something you're seeing in your local market or is it a data derived number?

Its experience. It seems to always be what I end up making on a good day and what I've come to estimate when I'm estimating a price for a job. I'd could also say $40 per hour. If you want a data derived number... generally when estimating the cost to do a carpentry job, where I'm from, its standard to double the cost of materials plus ten percent. I used that formula long enough that I learned I was always making $500 a day, give or take.

[Luther]

(09-18-2018 08:36 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

(09-14-2018 04:12 AM)Luther Wrote:  

Like Roberto said, You can bank on $500 a day as a skilled tradesman. Time is your limiting factor, not marketing. If you’re good then you’ll have all the business you have time for, through word of mouth.
And scaling requires massive overhead with employees salaries, fleets of vehicles, a shop, tools to outfit several crews...
If you scale hard you may get caught when construction dips with the national and local economy.
By all means, learn a skilled trade, but it has limitations. I would do things as I’ve done... I work alone. I can make high five figures a year working on my own terms, taking whatever days off I want, and when I take off my tool pouch the day and it’s worries are over.

This is curiousity rather than criticism, but I'm interested to know where you get the $500 figure. Is that something you're seeing in your local market or is it a data derived number?

Its experience. It seems to always be what I end up making on a good day and what I've come to estimate when I'm estimating a price for a job. I'd could also say $40 per hour. If you want a data derived number... generally when estimating the cost to do a carpentry job, where I'm from, its standard to double the cost of materials plus ten percent. I used that formula long enough that I learned I was always making $500 a day, give or take.

[GT777733]

(09-19-2018 01:13 AM)skptc Wrote:  

I think this thread could demotivate a lot of people.

I do online business I don't even have to get out of bed and make 12-15k in monthly personal income. It took me a few years to get to this stage but I didn't have to grind alone for 12+ hours a day. I basically worked a standard work day often times in the company of friends on the same journey.

This income is likely to last at least a few more years (business is still growing) and I will probably sell at some stage which should earn me around a 500k payday.

If you have to grind hard for several years to get to 10k a month it simply means you have chosen a difficult/low profit business model. The guys that I know grinding away and working much harder than me aren't doing it to make 10k a month... they are making 100-300k a month or building an asset that can be sold for 8+ figures.

Content based businesses are always difficult. I recommend selling information products, productized services, print on demand, branded eCommerce, high ticket dropshipping, software, affiliate marketing, lead gen (depending on where your proclivities lie).

I did say in my original post that this is just my experience with my own strengths and limitations.

It's impossible to compare two journeys - no two people, situations, the decisions they make, some of the luck they get along the way etc. are the same.

I did see in another reply you said it took you 4 years to save your capital working your military job. I'm not sure you used all of it - but I'd consider that part of your journey to add to your implementation stage.

I've done what I've done with no capital (only time) in 3 years. That was my choice.

That doesn't make me better.

It's just one example of probably 100's of variables that if you compare our journeys side by side, they would look extremely different.

I do think if you took an average guy off the street, who knows absolutely nothing about marketing or business, and knows no one. And, let's say he works an average job. He probably also has a lot of limiting beliefs/mindsets, a few shitty habits, and probably also is renting or living with his parents - and you said to him "tomorrow I want you to try to make 15k a month within the next 3 years" - the VAST majority are either not going to get past the first few months, let alone the first year, because there's so many changes (and some sacrifices) to make which can grind you down.

Even if it doesn't emotionally affect you (you don't go through depression etc.) - I know plenty of people that have come into online business, pumped 10, 20, 30 k into buying websites and/or content, links, courses, you name it, and haven't broken even - because they gave up or they just expected things to happen or they just followed the wrong people (or a number of other reasons).

I also know guys making in the millions and every single one of them at some stage has gone through bouts of feeling shitty or losing motivation. The most successful guy I know, making in the multiple of millions, is currently seeing a psychologist to deal with mental stuff that has resurfaced from BEFORE he started online business. He's an A type personality, super positive guy - I never would have known unless he told me.

Once again - I have no idea of your situation, who you met along the way (and when), what knowledge you got access to, what events you went to or what courses you took or what groups you joined, what your natural personality and problem solving level is etc.

But, you're definitely the exception if you got through it all completely without any major problems or challenges (even the ones you can't account for like personal health or problems with friends and family, and even breakups).

Good on you for making it work.

It's equally as important for people to read stories like yours as well as stories like mine - whether they fall somewhere in between, or more towards yours or my experience.

[GT777733]

(09-19-2018 02:15 PM)Stickman Wrote:  

What @skptc said. Are you still grinding as much as you did even a year ago? I didn't have to go through that myself when I first started but everyone is different and we all take a different path. Some get lucky and chose a more profitable niche etc...

You mentioned you don't have employees. Maybe now is a good time to outsource. I have a programmer friend. He makes 15k/month as an employee and he didn't have to sacrificed his dating life or slumping it out. My point is, its fine to grind it out when you first started but after a couple years if you're not scaling and be more hands off and enjoy your life. What's the point?

If there is one thing I know I need to implement in the future now I know what my income stream and personal bank account looks like, it's outsourcing/bringing on employees.

I was hesitant to do it before now because I wanted to guarantee my personal financial situation first (my maximising profit in the first few years), among a few other reasons.

That's a personal choice that has definitely worn me out more than say for example someone that outsources everything sooner.

One note on outsourcing though - I do think you need to want to spend the time to get the right people in, and keep them.

Plenty of people I know have had problems with getting employees or outsourcers in that do quality work and are reliable.

That's a whole other topic though.

[the-dream]

Can anyone recommend a good forum about making money online? BlackHatWorld a few years back was really good and the best one I know now is the Entrepreneur subreddit which is ok but people are generally quite vague and cliche and "politically correct", not really talking about the real issues and methods.

[nomadbrah]

(09-21-2018 12:45 PM)the-dream Wrote:  

Can anyone recommend a good forum about making money online? BlackHatWorld a few years back was really good and the best one I know now is the Entrepreneur subreddit which is ok but people are generally quite vague and cliche and "politically correct", not really talking about the real issues and methods.

Making money online is too broad a term.