[The Catalyst]

Recently I was in a really sticky situation involving logistics and paperwork. It had been really stressful and I wasn't sure how I was going to get things done. Luckily, I had an American friend who knows her stuff and managed to list out all the steps/options I had available to me which I was able to systematically follow.

That got me thinking about the whole self-sacrifice and caring about others. I don't believe any Kiwi would do the same for me, that is, care enough about someone else to systematically walk through their problems or give a favor to someone/a friend that truly needs it. The only exceptions are my sisters, and only the oldest I believe would truly care if I wasn't family. And maybe parents' church friends, although I'm not sure if I would truly count those.

At the same time, I have 5-6 American friends who consistently care about me. A European friend also. I've met Americans on two separate occasions who invited me over to their place while in NZ and said I was welcome to visit them(I believe for free if necessary) and stay if I was to head over to the US for whatever reason. Truly warm hospitality. I've never experienced this in NZ aside from those instances. Kiwis are superficially friendly but ultimately cold and heartless.

Samseau made the argument a while back(I forgot which thread/post exactly), that America is a Christian nation with Christian values and that's why the "love thy neighbor" is so ingrained in the culture. Similarly, Europe is like that also but it's had more time for "secular rot".

I've always been agnostic and don't really have a reason to believe God exists but I've been thinking it's truly important for society to follow a Christian style morality/code of conduct. Maybe me also. I want to live a life with virtue and values. Instinctively I wanted to be selfish and only care about myself, but it seems "incorrect" to do so in a proper Christian society, so I'll strive to "love thy neighbor" more even when it hurts me at times.

Reading about r/K selection this "Christian values" also seems to be rooted in K selection. But that's also interesting, since not to race troll, but here in NZ the "minorities"(Maori/Pacific Islanders, which are generally more r selected) are more likely to be Christian than whites. The Christian minorities I'm guessing are more K than the secular minorities, but more r than the middle class secular whites. Just throwing something out there.

[LINUX]

All religions have these values. Not just Christianity. Many religions have been saying this long before Christ came along.

http://humanityhealing.org/who-we-are/the-golden-rule/

I don’t know what all the k select r select stuff means.

[RatInTheWoods]

Aren't these just human values?

[Leonard D Neubache]

Pitbulls are bred to latch on and not let go.
Bloodhounds are bred to be unsurpassed scent trackers.
Greyhounds are bred to chase moving objects without a second thought.
Kelpie pups round up lambs in a pen before they've ever seen a full grown sheep or met a trainer.

You can train any of these animals to reject its inherent nature with varying levels of success and even then they will typically have a limited capacity to serve outside of their biologically assigned roles. Left to their own devices they will do what nature and selective breeding compel them.

I have some experience with non-white "Christians" and I use quotes because when people talk about how "demographic X is Y% Christian so they are therefore desirable as fellow compatriots" they typically have not the slightest fucking clue about that kind of Christian culture, nor have they spent any reasonable time immersed in it.

3rd world and 1st world equivalent "Christian" culture is fundamentally no different from voodoo or any other generic superstitious bullshit. They do not wear rosary beads around their neck or invoke the protection of Jesus because they've read the Bible, accepted Christ into their hearts and internalised his teachings. They use these things the same way a primitive African shaman waves a chicken's foot around his doorway to ward off evil spirits or a witless Chinese peasant rubs a lucky coin before he rolls dice.

They cluelessly invoke anything they believe gives them an advantage in life, even if it means directly disadvantaging others. They will fuck their sister's husband and invoke God's forgiveness even though they have no repentance in their hearts whatsoever.

They will actually invoke Jesus to do harm to someone they have a grudge against.

They will lie, steal, cheat and in some cases murder, all the while claiming with ardent self-belief that they are a better Christian than the man next door because he doesn't have as many pictures of Jesus in his house, and he only attends church on particularly holy days.

Why does anyone think those "massively Christian" nations to the South of America are still such murderous shitholes after hundreds of years of Christ "being accepted" when increasingly atheistic Western nations are devolving, yes, but still far more peaceful and productive by comparison?

Black Americans identify twice as often as white Americans as being Christian. How is that working out for them?

There is a world of difference between Christians who have accepted Christ's teachings and "Christians" looking for the next chicken's foot to wave in front of their door or lucky coin to rub. It's little wonder they look to join the winning team, since Christ has obviously bestowed such largess on white people simply because they invoke his name and attend his magical clubhouse. If African Shamans had enjoyed several hundred years of world domination then most of South America would currently be ritually murdering albinos and eating their flesh.

[fenetre]

(04-05-2018 08:39 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

Aren't these just human values?

You flippantly pose these questions, complex questions which require enormous and deep answers. If you cared to know the answers you'd have taken the time to research what wise men have already said about this.

And when nobody takes the time to provide the in-depth response you don't deserve, you probably think that means there is no answer, or it's a sign of defeat from a theist.

[Repo]

(04-05-2018 10:44 PM)fenetre Wrote:  

(04-05-2018 08:39 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

Aren't these just human values?

You flippantly pose these questions, complex questions which require enormous and deep answers. If you cared to know the answers you'd have taken the time to research what wise men have already said about this.

And when nobody takes the time to provide the in-depth response you don't deserve, you probably think that means there is no answer, or it's a sign of defeat from a theist.

Google "rhetorical question"

[fenetre]

(04-06-2018 12:06 AM)Repo Wrote:  

(04-05-2018 10:44 PM)fenetre Wrote:  

(04-05-2018 08:39 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

Aren't these just human values?

You flippantly pose these questions, complex questions which require enormous and deep answers. If you cared to know the answers you'd have taken the time to research what wise men have already said about this.

And when nobody takes the time to provide the in-depth response you don't deserve, you probably think that means there is no answer, or it's a sign of defeat from a theist.

Google "rhetorical question"

I thought this was the Deep Forum.

RVF is a joke these days

[godfather dust]

"Christian Morality" is bankrupt without Christ. Try getting on your knees every day for a month and ask God for guidance, even if you don't have faith (trust me, try it.)

[RatInTheWoods]

(04-05-2018 10:44 PM)fenetre Wrote:  

(04-05-2018 08:39 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

Aren't these just human values?

You flippantly pose these questions, complex questions which require enormous and deep answers. If you cared to know the answers you'd have taken the time to research what wise men have already said about this.

I'm just challenging a 8 line OP

Of course I care about the answer, and spent my life researching it, living it and listening to wise and not so wise men about this.

The reason humans have been successful on the planet is because of brains, but also because we work as a team and multiply our chances of success.

We have evolved complex teamwork and empathy to enable us to succeed over mother nature. No other animal uses language, demarcation and teamwork on the scale humans do.

In order for us to work as a team, live together and succeed we needed to develop "social skills" and empathy. Sharing resources, helping the sick, respecting the old, not violating trust and others space and things is the only way we can coordinate and co-exist.

With the development of intelligence comes imagination, and with that comes the ability to empathise with others.

So values/caring for others is an evolved trait not related to religions in any way.

Anyway this is just my "flippant" summation of the well established research. If you want to "research the answers" yourself I have provided some handy links for you:


Humans evolved empathy

Evolutionary Empathy

http://www.theemotionmachine.com/empathy-and-evolution/

Darwininan Empathy

[debeguiled]

(04-05-2018 10:05 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

They will actually invoke Jesus to do harm to someone they have a grudge against.

They will lie, steal, cheat and in some cases murder, all the while claiming with ardent self-belief that they are a better Christian than the man next door because he doesn't have as many pictures of Jesus in his house, and he only attends church on particularly holy days.

Don't know if you are correct in general, but doing a search for "narco saints" is extremely interesting.

[dosequis]

(04-05-2018 10:05 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Pitbulls are bred to latch on and not let go.
Bloodhounds are bred to be unsurpassed scent trackers.
Greyhounds are bred to chase moving objects without a second thought.
Kelpie pups round up lambs in a pen before they've ever seen a full grown sheep or met a trainer.

You can train any of these animals to reject its inherent nature with varying levels of success and even then they will typically have a limited capacity to serve outside of their biologically assigned roles. Left to their own devices they will do what nature and selective breeding compel them.

I have some experience with non-white "Christians" and I use quotes because when people talk about how "demographic X is Y% Christian so they are therefore desirable as fellow compatriots" they typically have not the slightest fucking clue about that kind of Christian culture, nor have they spent any reasonable time immersed in it.

3rd world and 1st world equivalent "Christian" culture is fundamentally no different from voodoo or any other generic superstitious bullshit. They do not wear rosary beads around their neck or invoke the protection of Jesus because they've read the Bible, accepted Christ into their hearts and internalised his teachings. They use these things the same way a primitive African shaman waves a chicken's foot around his doorway to ward off evil spirits or a witless Chinese peasant rubs a lucky coin before he rolls dice.

They cluelessly invoke anything they believe gives them an advantage in life, even if it means directly disadvantaging others. They will fuck their sister's husband and invoke God's forgiveness even though they have no repentance in their hearts whatsoever.

They will actually invoke Jesus to do harm to someone they have a grudge against.

They will lie, steal, cheat and in some cases murder, all the while claiming with ardent self-belief that they are a better Christian than the man next door because he doesn't have as many pictures of Jesus in his house, and he only attends church on particularly holy days.

Why does anyone think those "massively Christian" nations to the South of America are still such murderous shitholes after hundreds of years of Christ "being accepted" when increasingly atheistic Western nations are devolving, yes, but still far more peaceful and productive by comparison?

Black Americans identify twice as often as white Americans as being Christian. How is that working out for them?

There is a world of difference between Christians who have accepted Christ's teachings and "Christians" looking for the next chicken's foot to wave in front of their door or lucky coin to rub. It's little wonder they look to join the winning team, since Christ has obviously bestowed such largess on white people simply because they invoke his name and attend his magical clubhouse. If African Shamans had enjoyed several hundred years of world domination then most of South America would currently be ritually murdering albinos and eating their flesh.

Genes matter most?

I suppose I agree. I also thought about the African colonization when reading this. Uganda and Zimbabwe were fairly wealthy countries during the colonization before it was handed over to the Africans themselves, which turned out to be a disaster. Same with South Africa which has just gone downhill since 1994.

These were Anglo-Saxon and Dutch colonies. But if you look at any old Portuguese or Spanish colony out there, they haven't been able to produce the same kind of productive and civilised societies in the world.

But I sounds strange that OP thinks the people of New Zealand don't contain many people of higher moral.

[Leonard D Neubache]

Everyone lives inside their own societal bubble.

They see "councillor takes bribe for building permit" and think they're neck deep in the swamp.

Meanwhile there are countries where a general gets a new car and an entire village is wiped off the face of the earth "because they were terrorists".

[Hannibal]

(04-06-2018 10:25 PM)dosequis Wrote:  

Genes matter most?

I suppose I agree. I also thought about the African colonization when reading this. Uganda and Zimbabwe were fairly wealthy countries during the colonization before it was handed over to the Africans themselves, which turned out to be a disaster. Same with South Africa which has just gone downhill since 1994.

These were Anglo-Saxon and Dutch colonies. But if you look at any old Portuguese or Spanish colony out there, they haven't been able to produce the same kind of productive and civilised societies in the world.

But I sounds strange that OP thinks the people of New Zealand don't contain many people of higher moral.

Haha, the Somalian corruption doesn't surprise me at all.

I worked at a fabrication plant for two years before going back to school. In many ways, I'm glad this happened because otherwise I would not have the perspective of other cultures, religions, and general trash people that I have today. I'm not just talking about Somalians either, some of the people I hung out with were methheads, alcoholics, violent sons of bitches and just regular pieces of shit.

The Quality Assurance guy was a Somalian who I was very cool with and he would regularly and frequently lie to the higher ups on my behalf. Nothing quality-wise about my work, mind you, I was very good at my job. Probably the best. It was mostly bullshit politics from upper management to middle management that would cycle every two months or so and then it would get back to me. Every shitty place to work at is the same in this respect.

The departments run by Somalians (manned and managed I should say) consistently churned out the least amount and the most fucked up product. I believe this is mostly due to the massive amounts of internal conflict they have with each other, they are constantly fighting over dumb shit. I saw a guy say "bless you" to a Somali who was sneezing, the dude was pissed about it for months afterwards.

I'm surprised those guys don't have bigger traps from all the shoulder shrugging that went on over there. My brother ran one such department after months of nonstop fuckups, he managed to turn it around but only after working twice as hard as the next man.

I still talk to a couple of the guys I worked with. Last I heard they laid off an entire shift in spite of the improving economy.

[MANic]

Ironically, Christianity in its modern guise is possibly the faith most devoid of human value. A most pervasive element of modern Christian belief appears to be the idea that the attainment of salvation is contigent upon an inner belief in Jesus rather than adherence to a way of life or the letter of divine law.

Rather than be good, all one must do is believe Jesus to be his saviour and he is salvaged (see the common interpretation of John 3:16 in this regard). Which is why the average latina or black lady indulges in vile degeneracy yey still considers herself free of consequence, guilt and punishment.

Contrast, this to Islam for instance where self-moderation is primary and action is the essence of belief and it becomes blatantly obvious how vacuous Christian belief is.

[godfather dust]

MANic you need to repent to be saved. Yes, there a lot of "churches" whose message is "thou shalt not judge, wife that hoe."

Do not think all churches are corrupt. Many are, many aren't.

[rudebwoy]

America has to be in the top 3 of corrupt nations. India and China are also up there as well.

It is laughable that countries like Somalia, Syria and South Sudan are listed as the top 3. What a coincidence that Western countries view them as enemies through their bullshit propaganda.

Christianity like any religion is a farce.

Morality has long gone from many societies.

Go onto Seeking Arrangement and you will see a ton of young attractive girls, ready to suck any guys dick for a Coach handbag.

[EndsExpect]

(04-14-2018 04:55 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

America has to be in the top 3 of corrupt nations. India and China are also up there as well.
It is laughable that countries like Somalia, Syria and South Sudan are listed as the top 3. What a coincidence that Western countries view them as enemies through their bullshit propaganda.
Christianity like any religion is a farce.
Morality has long gone from many societies.
Go onto Seeking Arrangement and you will see a ton of young attractive girls, ready to suck any guys dick for a Coach handbag.

I agree that data based on "perceptions" of corruption is likely not accurate. The US is corrupt as fuck and so is Europe if you understand things properly

In a place like Somalia lets say you work at the DMV or the police. You don't get paid enough to feed your family, however you have a position that puts you in power over other people. So you take bribes to do your job faster. You want a drivers license faster, just bribe the guy and you have it quickly.

Now in the US or Europe the same workers DMV or police. Now these fuckers have Unions that control local government that literally takes money from you at gunpoint. However, they are not happy with just that, so they leverage additional fees for their services. Get caught speeding? In Somalia you pay $5 and you are back on your way. In the US the cop hassles the shit out of you and writes a $300 ticket, which must be paid or again they show up and put you in jail. The DMV workers charge extra for their work as well and there is nothing on earth that can make them move beyond a snails pace.

So, to my thinking in the US the corruption is structured and governmental... whereas in other countries we call "corrupt" it is unstructured and personal.

Also... we have Democrats whose single aim as a party the country bankrupt while lining the pockets of their benefactors and sprinkling benefits on the indulgent wastrels who vote for them.

Regarding Christianity as a farce... I can't say yes or no to that. However I can say that in societies where Christian values are strong... Dubai Porta-potties are in short supply. Islam has a similar effect.

[rudebwoy]

I take it you have been to Somalia.

Corruption is everywhere and part of human nature.

ALL political parties in every country, line their own pockets and benefactors.

Drugs, Alcohol, Tobacco are poisons that are sold in big supply where I live. Strip clubs, massage parlours and prostitution are also in large supplies. Would a true Christian society allow all this poison.

Do you have a good example of a strong Christian society?

[Paracelsus]

(04-14-2018 04:30 PM)MANic Wrote:  

Ironically, Christianity in its modern guise is possibly the faith most devoid of human value. A most pervasive element of modern Christian belief appears to be the idea that the attainment of salvation is contigent upon an inner belief in Jesus rather than adherence to a way of life or the letter of divine law.

Rather than be good, all one must do is believe Jesus to be his saviour and he is salvaged (see the common interpretation of John 3:16 in this regard). Which is why the average latina or black lady indulges in vile degeneracy yey still considers herself free of consequence, guilt and punishment.

Contrast, this to Islam for instance where self-moderation is primary and action is the essence of belief and it becomes blatantly obvious how vacuous Christian belief is.

Christianity suffered from two things that brought it to this pass.

(1) The way in which the Bible was translated. The very word “faith” has its etymological roots in the Greek pistis, “trust; commitment; loyalty; engagement.” Jerome, when he translated the Bible from Hebrew and Greek into Latin, took the word pistis and rendered the Latin fides (“loyalty”) and credo (which derived from cor do, “I give my heart”). The translators of the first King James Bible translated credo into the English “belief,” which came from the Middle English bileven (“to prize; to value; to hold dear”). Faith in God, therefore, was a trust in and loyal commitment to God.

Belief in Christ was an engaged commitment to the call and ministry of Jesus; it was a commitment to do the gospel, to be a follower of Christ. In neither case were “belief” or “faith” a matter of intellectual assent, at least as originally translated.

(2) The Reformation. At the centre of Protestant thought was Martin Luther's view that no commentary or tradition based on the Bible was required, that the Bible itself was enough. Protestantism was determined to show its opposition to a number of Catholic concepts, most of which were tied to traditions of practice or canons of belief that the Catholic Church had required of its adherents for centuries (amongst which was the hideous late Medieval/Renaissance concept of selling indulgences - that practice was what originally set Martin Luther off).

More significantly, the essential heart of Luther's thought was that human beings were so sinful (by Original Sin and by misdeeds in life) and so imperfect that no amount of a man's good deeds in this life was enough to displace the weight of his sins, i.e. nobody was good enough to qualify for salvation on their own. Christ alone was perfect enough to pay the debt of Original Sin and therefore Protestant thinking was that belief alone in Christ, the declaration of faith in Christ, was enough to ensure salvation.

This is not to say Catholicism was perfect, but its promulgation of sacraments was a powerful metaphor for its message that belief alone was not enough, that you still had to live a Christian life. Most people who say belief alone (in the modern sense rather than as Jerome translated it) is enough are missing express instructions from Christ himself to keep the Commandments and then James' explicit exhortations in his letters that faith without works is dead.

Islam at best can say it has external practices. Its problems come from the fact it's working with at best a bunch of highly inconsistent foundational texts which contain distinctly non-human values in many areas. I struggle to find even in the Nag Hammadi Essene collections any instruction from Jesus to lop off Samaritans' heads or rape women captured in battle.

[Super_Fire]

^^ Exactly.

The stain of Protestantism has gone on for far too long.

Its work ethic came from Catholic monasteries and its belief in "faith alone" is painful to even contemplate.

[Kid Twist]

^ Paracelsus points above are accurate on many levels, and prove another thing, which I will state succinctly: these things can only come from the theology of western christianity, and included in that is the franco-roman catholic church, just to a lesser degree in that they have links to and some traditions maintained from the early church.

He is absolutely correct that "faith" is translated correctly but this only matters if your hermeneutic is wrong, ie that the bible is not and never was meant to be understood literally in all places at all times (errancy, sola scriptura, quranic text fell from the sky type idea which is silly on its face). So the incomplete translation should be noted, but the understanding can be undertaken or ingrained with the proper teaching of the text. I find the translation, if you want to be clear on what is really being taught in one word, is best stated "faithfulness". Western concepts of rationalism and mental assent, as he states, are far far off of the approach.

Apart from these teachings being so poor for so long, the combination of the nonsensical nature of some of them, and the fundamental lack of understanding even of these, let's just say, subpar teachings also led to a general falling away from whatever "church" you were in because the West became a place where money became the modus operandi. And that generally sways the masses from keeping God on their minds.

It is a good criticism from MANic and accurate when he states "Christianity in its modern guise" ... indeed that is the problem. It isn't Christianity anymore. Even the true church will continue to lose people, but it won't go away, we have to do our best to remind people of our teachings and fathers, regardless of what happens. When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?

Rhetorical question for effect, which can be roughly understood as both "Yes" and "barely"

[CynicalContrarian]

Although I got the underlying premise even as a young teenager way back in the early 90's.
Society had yet to lose it's way to the degree it has now.
So the message of 'hedonism being hellish & hollow' has only become apparent in these more modern politically correct times.

It could be argued the Brad Goodman episode was the most poignant & meaningful episode they ever made.

As a Christian I can more than intellectualize that morals are not the domain of religion.
Virtually every culture has had the moral principle of murder being a bad thing even if merely tribal in nature.

Yet the flaw today is morals without any clear or strong meaning.
Morals derived from a secular nature or a very individualistic nature.

Putting aside any notions of which ideology would make the for the best society.
It still stands that a homogeneous moral structure for said society is going to be far more favourable than a whole meandering mass of moral principles.
When everyone is largely on the same page; when everyone largely knows how to behave, you're far more likely to be able to set a societal foundation of stone as opposed to a foundation of sand.
When everyone has their own moral principles of no real grand standing, who's morals are more correct & more important than the other?

Feminists complain about 'patriarchy', yet they conveniently overlook Muslim patriarchy.
All the while, other folk are confused as to the simple premise of what bathroom they should use.

No one is right, no one is wrong - modern morals are malleable.
Largely due to hedonism being hellish & hollow.

Genuine Christian values would be of great benefit when wanting decency in society.

Or we just kill off all the r-select folk...
Paging Anonymous Conservative.