[Argot]

Hey guys, quick question. I’ve noticed some conflicting advice regarding on what to do when she cancels a date without good reason. 1) Avoid beta butthurt behavior and be unreactive because you should have a life and other plates (i.e. don’t make a big deal about it, invite her again some other time). 2) Be a man with boundaries and not tolerate bad behavior from anybody, even if the offender happens to have nice tits (i.e. call her out on her shit and/or next her).

Both make sense but… If you’re unreactive you’re not setting boundaries. And if you’re setting boundaries you’re being reactive. So which one is best? What’s your flake tolerance policy like? Thanks.

[tr1cky]

Unreactive is a difficult concept. Better to think of it as unaffected. Meaning you will set boundaries but not be affected if you have to cut someone out who doesn't follow them. You aren't affected by her bullshit.

Getting flaked on by a girl you haven't banged is different than other boundary issues that may come up later. Your value isn't super high to her yet so anything you say to her won't have much impact. In fact, it'll probably drive your value lower.

Girls flake a lot now a days, even on their "besties". It's probably not her testing you but rather how she lives her life. If it is a (unconscious) test it's probably more of a test on your social status than your boundaries as a man.

If you let it affect you it likely means you don't have much going on in your life.

[Batman_]

Being unreactive and having boundaries are not contradictory at all.

If a girl flakes on you and doesn't immediately try to reschedule and apologize, then the only course of action is to never talk to her again. That is having boundaries. This can be while being unreactive, which is to say that you are truly indifferent. I can tell you right now that I don't really care if a girl flakes (sometimes I like it because it means I'll have a better night's sleep and be more productive), but I also do not tolerate it.

[ksbms]

(02-25-2018 05:22 PM)Argot Wrote:  

Hey guys, quick question. I’ve noticed some conflicting advice regarding on what to do when she cancels a date without good reason.

No girl is under obligation to go on a date with you because you two made plans. She said 'yes' at that time but after that things might have changed. As a man you may think people will honour an obligation that they entered but dating ain't such thing. It's not a contract. There is no good or bad reason for a girl to cancel. If she feels you, she'll come (eventually), if not, she won't. Text game gives you some leeway to move a weak prospect into a stronger one (or botch it completely) if you manoeuvre your pieces into a good position. Still, opponent's moves aren't fully predictable.

The only thing that matters is how much time in advance she let you know she would not be coming. If it's an evening date, in my book, until midday it's a polite cancellation, no foul, no harm. After that, the closer to the agreed date time, the stronger the evidence should there be for a cancellation (and depending on what she replies you should decide what to do - roll off for 24 hours, a week, delete a number, etc.). Less than two hours and it really needs to be a strong, genuine reason, e.g., "I just broke my finger whilst strumming my guitar learning a song I wanted to play for you". If it's 1 hour or less, she's a disrespectful cunt (and even if you get her out on a date you'll have to deal with lots of cuntish behaviour - you can correct her in a long term but the juice will be unlikely worth squeezing out). In such case, commit her phone number to the flames.

In the odd case she replies to you after the set date time, your gut feeling should tell you if her reason is justifiable, e.g., "My lovely puppy had my Samsung for dessert, I had to get a new phone" or not. It is very unlikely, though, to happen unless you gather dozens of numbers weekly.

To put it shortly - I'd recommend to focus more on the time interval than the reason a girl gives you.

[rottenapple]

Don't forget to flake back whenever you feel like it and you have the time for it. Not to random girls off course but to girls who flaked on you in bad way. Let them get all doled up, go to some location and then tell em something inconvenient happened without any specification and then just don't reply for a while.

Some people are like dogs and you just need to give positive and negative stimuli all the time.

A girl flaked on me once 2 times in a row for no reason and without giving me the heads up. I moved to another city, but she didn't know, so I let her take a bus for close to an hour to come meet me and then let her wait for over half an hour in a random park. Stupid woman. I was just doing this by text during my work hours so it was well worth the small effort.

[General Stalin]

(02-25-2018 05:22 PM)Argot Wrote:  

Hey guys, quick question. I’ve noticed some conflicting advice regarding on what to do when she cancels a date without good reason. 1) Avoid beta butthurt behavior and be unreactive because you should have a life and other plates (i.e. don’t make a big deal about it, invite her again some other time). 2) Be a man with boundaries and not tolerate bad behavior from anybody, even if the offender happens to have nice tits (i.e. call her out on her shit and/or next her).

Both make sense but… If you’re unreactive you’re not setting boundaries. And if you’re setting boundaries you’re being reactive. So which one is best? What’s your flake tolerance policy like? Thanks.

This is a case by case basis and really depends on what you want.

For example:

Scenario 1 - You and this girl have a date lined up for Friday night. Thursday during the day she texts you that her manager coaxed her into working overtime tomrrow and she won't be able to make the date. No big deal. Be cool and reschedule.

Scenario 2 - You and this girl have a date lined up for Friday night. Friday night rolls around and you agree to meet at X venue at 8:00pm. She no calls no shows. You text her, no answer. Disrespectful. Delete her number.

You need to understand what is a reasonable and what is disrespect. There is a difference between plans being canceled and being blown off.

[The Alpha Virgin]

(02-26-2018 06:01 AM)rottenapple Wrote:  

Don't forget to flake back whenever you feel like it and you have the time for it. Not to random girls off course but to girls who flaked on you in bad way. Let them get all doled up, go to some location and then tell em something inconvenient happened without any specification and then just don't reply for a while.

Fuck that.

Why the hell would I start playing games too just to prove a point to a bitch and having to prove myself to her and that I'm evolutionary fit or some bullshit for her? No one is still 14 here, right?
No, instead just drop the bitch and believe in abundance.
At some point you'll just become too old to waste time on games or women like that.

OP:

I think the problem is that most of us get all up in our emotions when we try to set boundaries. If you start shouting or show any emotions or passive aggressiveness, that is when you usually lose it.

But if you state what kind of boundaries/expectations you have for her in a calm but firm voice, you won't lose any power or what not because of that. If she doesn't respect you after that, she's not one you should take it any further with. I don't know how it is for you but a sane woman would be careful to show me disrespect in any kind of way and if she isn't she's obviously an entitled bitch who doesn't deserve me, that's the mindset you need.

[rottenapple]

"Fuck that.

Why the hell would I start playing games too just to prove a point to a bitch and having to prove myself to her and that I'm evolutionary fit or some bullshit for her? No one is still 14 here, right?
No, instead just drop the bitch and believe in abundance.
At some point you'll just become too old to waste time on games or women like that."

You talk like a guy that has read some game books, but is missing some practical experience. First off, you're not doing it for you. you're doing it for the next guy. Its because people only think about themselves these days and men don't stick together no more that we now have a society where women can afford everything without consequences. Calling out girls on bad behaviour is part of the abundance mentality. Why? Because you know you might lose a hot girl when you call her out and yet you still do it. You can do that, because you have plenty others in line.

And you know what happens surprisingly? Many times those girls will be right back with full focus after seeing your display of ego and your higher authority than her. And not playing games haha, you talk like a kid man, dating women is all about playing games, cause that's exactly what women want, they want to be in an emotional rollercoaster all the time. Try providing that for them by being a logical strict normal rational male. You think like a logical man and that's great for behavior between men, but it wont get you far with women, unless you already have exceptional high status, which I doubt.

I get where you are coming from, because I thought the same as you did, but what you are forgetting is that women think like 14 year old's most of the time, especially the hot ones. So you gotta engage them on their level. If you 'feel to good for that' or something, that's fine, but you will lose a lot more hot women than the next guy that is willing to play and that knows how to play.

[Hypno]

Depending on the context, I tell her she's getting some spankings for cancelling the date. But salvaging these situations is an art and should be thought of as a hail mary, low percentage. Try to maintain some frame but definitely don't put too much effort into it.

[The Alpha Virgin]

(02-27-2018 05:56 AM)rottenapple Wrote:  

You talk like a guy that has read some game books, but is missing some practical experience. First off, you're not doing it for you. you're doing it for the next guy. Its because people only think about themselves these days and men don't stick together no more that we now have a society where women can afford everything without consequences.

I don't disagree with calling a woman out. I disagreed with the part about flaking back on her in the same way and playing those games. If you are the best possible man that you could be, you wouldn't waste any energy whatsoever in playing games like that back with her. Be the better person and be above all that, for your own sake.

You like to think you get the upper hand by doing so but in reality you won't.
You'll teach a woman next to nothing by playing her own games; ignoring calls/texts, flaking and acting like a woman yourself.

I rather move on with my life than spend more time on a bitch like that. If the girl then decides to contact you again, I see no wrong in just calm and firm explain to her (or "call her out") on what standards and expectations you have in terms of her behaviour, and that you've decided to move on. If it feels better for you.

If you're extremly lucky it might have an affect on her and she might think to herself "wow, this guy actually showed integrity and dissed me even though I'm beautiful and have big boobs because he did not like my behaviour. I really need to take a hard look at myself and change the way I treat others".

But lets be honest, most probably it's not going to matter anyway what we try and do to a woman's behaviour for the better in the future, because she's a woman and by nature she won't care and be able to understand either way.

A woman doesn't give two fucks if she wasted your Friday night by flaking the last minute and had you stand outside in the cold for 5 hours. Hell, most women don't even care if you've supported her for 10 years and raised her kids perfectly because if a woman has lost a bit of her attraction for you or met a man better than you, she will begin to treat you worse than homeless men she encounters on the street. She will ultimately not give a fuck whatsoever about what you say or do anyway.

So you might aswell just focus your energy on moving forward in life. That's what I meant.

For the record. An older guy, very familiar here on the forum, named Mike Cernovich, talks exactly about this in this podcast episode: https://soundcloud.com/dangerandplay/beyond-the-game

On how he used to play games like you in his youth but then realised that he could have abundance and rather drop a bitch he had to play games with instead of playing along with that bullshit. I think that's a more powerful way to look at it and way to live life.

[rottenapple]

Well, I think we agree on many premises to be honest. The local context is also important, when it comes to flaking, I speak of experience with latinas mostly. I've had good responses with actively putting very hot women in their place. No one ever seems to do that and so they are surprised by it and sometimes turned on even.

I do think there is some conditioning which can work, even with the worst women. The problem I think in society these days is that they get everything they want all the time and for nothing. You ignoring them will not change that in any way, since the next guy is there. You making sure she receives a negative stimulus does do something, because she will waste her time, probably get a small ego hit, etc. Most of them won't actively think about it too much I agree. Because it will happen only once in a decade for them. That's where I refer to the difference between what a man can do for himself and what men should do as a team. On the individual level sure you can just let it be and move on. You came out bad in the equation and she came out the same. If you react in some way, you make it equal a bit, she fucked you over, you return the favor, everyone loses. But if on the societal level, a large group of attractive and high status men would decide not to just let it pass and actively try to put her in her place, then in the end you will lose some time with a flake, but she will lose access to that which provides a lot for her, a group of men that she desires and mostly depends on. She will either suffer a larger loss or have to adapt. I am willing to spend some energy towards that goal. Not necessarily a lot, the scenario I described took me a couple of text messages and generally got me a good laugh.

For me the better man is not necessarily the one that just moves in his own direction and does well as such. That's a very individualistic concept common to our time. Very rarely I see also a man, who not only does well for himself, but is also aggressive and proactive in influencing others. A guy that takes no shit, a guy that when he sees another guy acting beta tells him to man up (either directly shaming him or offering support) and a guy that puts a girl in her place the minute she steps out of line in whatever way he feels fit. Going against the grain I see as a good quality in men these days.

I'm personally developing myself in such a way that I go from being liked by everyone (and never actively speaking out to someone) and having good success all around to being a guy that will be less liked maybe overall, but that stands for something. And you can take that quite broad, in philosophy, in politics, in relations with women, in friendship, etc.

We all decide which path to take, but I think there are all always different approaches that can work. I for instance realize that what I wrote now is not completely in line with "playing games", yet I do also feel that that is part of interactions with women. Just create drama from time to time etc. It's what works within their biological frame, not in mine, but it does as a result have what works in my biological frame (lots of sex with hot women).

[mensch]

How is this a paradox in any way? If you are setting boundaries for what is acceptable behaviour, and you encounter unacceptable behaviour you move on (ie are 'unreactive').

In any case, I don't think that is good advice at all - you should nonchalantly leave the door open for her to reschedule and leave it at that. Simply going radio silent isn't doing much. And if the flake is reasonable, you can offer the reschedule yourself.

[redbeard]

(02-26-2018 07:20 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  

(02-25-2018 05:22 PM)Argot Wrote:  

Hey guys, quick question. I’ve noticed some conflicting advice regarding on what to do when she cancels a date without good reason. 1) Avoid beta butthurt behavior and be unreactive because you should have a life and other plates (i.e. don’t make a big deal about it, invite her again some other time). 2) Be a man with boundaries and not tolerate bad behavior from anybody, even if the offender happens to have nice tits (i.e. call her out on her shit and/or next her).

Both make sense but… If you’re unreactive you’re not setting boundaries. And if you’re setting boundaries you’re being reactive. So which one is best? What’s your flake tolerance policy like? Thanks.

This is a case by case basis and really depends on what you want.

For example:

Scenario 1 - You and this girl have a date lined up for Friday night. Thursday during the day she texts you that her manager coaxed her into working overtime tomrrow and she won't be able to make the date. No big deal. Be cool and reschedule.

Scenario 2 - You and this girl have a date lined up for Friday night. Friday night rolls around and you agree to meet at X venue at 8:00pm. She no calls no shows. You text her, no answer. Disrespectful. Delete her number.

You need to understand what is a reasonable and what is disrespect. There is a difference between plans being canceled and being blown off.

Also depends on how much rapport you have with her and how CONFIRMED the date was.

Big difference between

"hey let's get drinks tomorrow"
"k"

and

"hey, tomorrow at 9 PM meet me at xyz bar"
"okay I'm so excited I'm going to wear this and that and we're gonna yada yada yada yada"

[Steelex]

There is no paradox. If she flakes, she's not into you. It's literally that simple. Game over, move on.

I didn't stack triple digit notches without getting flaked on A LOT.

[birthday cat]

(02-26-2018 07:20 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  

This is a case by case basis and really depends on what you want.

This.

It's a case by case basis that involves many other factors just like most aspects of game although guys on the internet want to create all these hard-and-fast rules that don't work in the real world. The answer to 99% of game questions is "it depends".

One example..... If a girl flakes on you in a bad way or ghosts on you then you shouldn't give her any more of your time or attention.

Another example..... If a young girl apologizes and flakes on you a day before your date with her. In most cases you should just chill and reschedule. Girls are terrible at managing their schedules so this is going to happen.

I never believe guys with their policies of absolutely no tolerance for flakes ever. How many 18 to 21 year olds are those guys banging? Will they next a 19 year old 8 when she cancels the day before because she has a test at university? I canceled plans all the time for the same reason when I was in university. I've had girls flake like that many times and I was banging them in the next few days.

[zoom]

(02-26-2018 06:01 AM)rottenapple Wrote:  

A girl flaked on me once 2 times in a row for no reason and without giving me the heads up. I moved to another city, but she didn't know, so I let her take a bus for close to an hour to come meet me and then let her wait for over half an hour in a random park. Stupid woman. I was just doing this by text during my work hours so it was well worth the small effort.

That's messed up.

[Argot]

Very helpful as usual. I appreciate the input, guys.

[birthday cat]

You're welcome.

I'll also add that when you verbally discuss boundaries with a woman, do it in a calm manner.

This is something I used to have a problem with and I think many other guys do also. They get pissed off and try to lay down the law in an authoritative manner. That usually doesn't work and signals an underlying insecurity..... although there are sometimes that it is necessary because the woman's behavior is so bad.

Think of "alpha" as being high testosterone and low cortisol - low stress. Be calm. You don't want the woman to think that she is affecting you or making you emotional. Anger is an emotion and sometimes the tests these girls give you is just to see if they can affect you and get you angry.

[Spartacus]

She has her reasons like you do, reschedule.