[[email protected]]

I'm looking for ways to cash out in the near future from crypto. There is no telling whether the market will be in a few years. My plan is to gradually cash out but it may be necessary to get out faster.

-localbitcoins?
-giving crypto to family?
-cashing out in tax havens?

any real ideas?

[SamuelBRoberts]

I'm not gonna tell you how to launder your cryptos to bypass the IRS on a public forum, man. You know they do read this stuff, right?

Just pay the 35% and call it a day. It's not like it's that different than what you pay for income tax.

[[email protected]]

Not a US citizen.

looking for legal ways. The rich have shell companies in Panama and Caymen's. Why can't we do the same?

[SamuelBRoberts]

If you're not a US citizen then don't ask for tax advice from a primarily US board, you'll get junk answers that don't apply to you.

[semibaron]

Many jurisdictions have ruled, that you enjoy no taxes or reduced taxes as long as you hold your crypto currency for at least 1 year.

[[email protected]]

(11-12-2017 02:55 AM)semibaron Wrote:  

Many jurisdictions have ruled, that you enjoy no taxes or reduced taxes as long as you hold your crypto currency for at least 1 year.

I thought about it but it's just suicidal to hold onto any crypto for one year to cash out. Even BTC. It's even worse if you are holding a token that you have to trade into a cryptocurrency that can be cashed out. Let's say you hold IOTA for one year, you have to convert to ETH or BTC and wait for another year to cash out. Not practical and too unpredictable. It's not a viable at all.

It might work a lot better if you used crypto to buy stocks. From what I hear there is no taxes on doing this just not sure who accepts crypto for stocks. What you would do in theory is but New Zealand stocks with BTC, then wait a year and cash out your stocks for no tax.

[semibaron]

(11-12-2017 03:51 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  

(11-12-2017 02:55 AM)semibaron Wrote:  

Many jurisdictions have ruled, that you enjoy no taxes or reduced taxes as long as you hold your crypto currency for at least 1 year.

I thought about it but it's just suicidal to hold onto any crypto for one year to cash out. Even BTC. It's even worse if you are holding a token that you have to trade into a cryptocurrency that can be cashed out. Let's say you hold IOTA for one year, you have to convert to ETH or BTC and wait for another year to cash out. Not practical and too unpredictable. It's not a viable at all.

It might work a lot better if you used crypto to buy stocks. From what I hear there is no taxes on doing this just not sure who accepts crypto for stocks. What you would do in theory is but New Zealand stocks with BTC, then wait a year and cash out your stocks for no tax.

You always only pay taxes on capital gains.

Let's go through your example: IOTA -> BTC -> Fiat

I hold IOTA for at least 1 year and then convert it to BTC. Because IOTA were hold for more than 1 year, I wouldn't have to pay taxes on the capital gain for this transaction. Next, I want to convert my freshly acquired BTC to a fiat currency. Obviously, I didn't hold BTC for 1 year or longer. That is why I would have to pay any possible taxes on capital gain of my BTC holdings. Please note, that any possible capital gain on IOTA was already processed in the first transaction.

In conclusion, you would only be required to pay taxes on capital gains for the 1h or so that you hold BTC.

[semibaron]

If I would be a professional day trader, I would set-up a limited in a crypto-friendly country and do my trading in the name of the company.

[[email protected]]

(11-12-2017 04:21 AM)semibaron Wrote:  

(11-12-2017 03:51 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  

(11-12-2017 02:55 AM)semibaron Wrote:  

Many jurisdictions have ruled, that you enjoy no taxes or reduced taxes as long as you hold your crypto currency for at least 1 year.

I thought about it but it's just suicidal to hold onto any crypto for one year to cash out. Even BTC. It's even worse if you are holding a token that you have to trade into a cryptocurrency that can be cashed out. Let's say you hold IOTA for one year, you have to convert to ETH or BTC and wait for another year to cash out. Not practical and too unpredictable. It's not a viable at all.

It might work a lot better if you used crypto to buy stocks. From what I hear there is no taxes on doing this just not sure who accepts crypto for stocks. What you would do in theory is but New Zealand stocks with BTC, then wait a year and cash out your stocks for no tax.

You always only pay taxes on capital gains.

Let's go through your example: IOTA -> BTC -> Fiat

I hold IOTA for at least 1 year and then convert it to BTC. Because IOTA were hold for more than 1 year, I wouldn't have to pay taxes on the capital gain for this transaction. Next, I want to convert my freshly acquired BTC to a fiat currency. Obviously, I didn't hold BTC for 1 year or longer. That is why I would have to pay any possible taxes on capital gain of my BTC holdings. Please note, that any possible capital gain on IOTA was already processed in the first transaction.

In conclusion, you would only be required to pay taxes on capital gains for the 1h or so that you hold BTC.

Ah I see. That makes sense. So if BTC stayed the same or dipped slightly when you sold into fiat you would pay nothing in CGT for that..

I'm thinking of a shell company in a tax haven country overseas but right now I'm in talks with an accountant from NZ. Billionaire faggot Peter Thiel has permanent residence there for a good reason.

[jamaicabound]

In many countries there are no capital gains taxes and/or no taxes on cryptos period.

Not making any moral judgements as everyone is responsible for their own actions, but just to be clear skirting taxes is not tax planning or minimizing taxes your dodging taxes, say it for what it is. If you want to use your Bitcoins to buy things, cash out for cash, etc that's your business but that's illegally avoiding taxes which is completely different from smart tax planning or minimizing taxes

[[email protected]]

(11-13-2017 05:19 PM)jamaicabound Wrote:  

In many countries there are no capital gains taxes and/or no taxes on cryptos period.

Not making any moral judgements as everyone is responsible for their own actions, but just to be clear skirting taxes is not tax planning or minimizing taxes your dodging taxes, say it for what it is. If you want to use your Bitcoins to buy things, cash out for cash, etc that's your business but that's illegally avoiding taxes which is completely different from smart tax planning or minimizing taxes

Becoming a tax resident in a tax haven country overseas is illegal now? Last I checked all the rich people were doing it Panama.

Registering your business or putting your money in an account in another country with lower taxes is completely legal. There is over $21 trillion is being hidden in offshore tax havens.
David Bowie, U2 and the Rolling Stones have all benefited from tax havens at one time or another.
Popular cash hideout: The Cayman Islands, home to >85,000 companies -- making it home to more registered organizations than people.

You are calling this tax dodging but it is completely legal. If I'm wrong you can back up your claim by providing a source. Let me make it clear if I wasn't, I'm looking for legal ways to pays as little tax as possible.

Or were you trying to make the argument that minimising your tax contribution was somehow immoral

[Kona]

Heres a list:

https://bitcoin.tax/cpa

I have to wonder how much experience these guys can really have?

Aloha!

[[email protected]]

I'm sure they know their stuff but it seems like most won't be using their services:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-13...-or-losses

If Americans are illegally dodging their tax you can only imagine what the rest of the world is doing within the confines of their laws. There's a reason Roger Ver renounced his US citizenship.

[Razor Beast]

(11-14-2017 01:03 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  

I'm sure they know their stuff but it seems like most won't be using their services:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-13...-or-losses

If Americans are illegally dodging their tax you can only imagine what the rest of the world is doing within the confines of their laws. There's a reason Roger Ver renounced his US citizenship.

Some people are probably going to have some serious legal issues coming if they had six figure gains in those years and spent all the money already. The IRS is the one entity that you don't want coming after you. Even if you renounce your citizenship, odds are you will never be able to legally enter the country again even if you became a citizen of another country.

It's probably a good idea for anyone in the US who had big capital gains on cryptocurrencies in previous years to pay them now that they are pursuing this. If the IRS is the one to notify you first, expect a very hefty interest charge to be assessed on taxes that were owed 3-4 years ago. The interest on 100k in taxes past due could run 15-20k. They might let you off the hook on the interest if you are up front with them about it.

If you have a lot of money at stake hire a professional. There are probably lots of pitfalls and traps to setting up these things by yourself that you want to avoid.

[jamaicabound]

(11-13-2017 10:37 PM)[email protected] Wrote:  

(11-13-2017 05:19 PM)jamaicabound Wrote:  

In many countries there are no capital gains taxes and/or no taxes on cryptos period.

Not making any moral judgements as everyone is responsible for their own actions, but just to be clear skirting taxes is not tax planning or minimizing taxes your dodging taxes, say it for what it is. If you want to use your Bitcoins to buy things, cash out for cash, etc that's your business but that's illegally avoiding taxes which is completely different from smart tax planning or minimizing taxes

Becoming a tax resident in a tax haven country overseas is illegal now? Last I checked all the rich people were doing it Panama.

Registering your business or putting your money in an account in another country with lower taxes is completely legal. There is over $21 trillion is being hidden in offshore tax havens.
David Bowie, U2 and the Rolling Stones have all benefited from tax havens at one time or another.
Popular cash hideout: The Cayman Islands, home to >85,000 companies -- making it home to more registered organizations than people.

You are calling this tax dodging but it is completely legal. If I'm wrong you can back up your claim by providing a source. Let me make it clear if I wasn't, I'm looking for legal ways to pays as little tax as possible.

Or were you trying to make the argument that minimising your tax contribution was somehow immoral

That would be legal and minimizing taxes. I see Reddit posts all day long of idiots wanting to sell a pencil and then give free Bitcoin away with the pencil as if that somehow avoids taxes or as a totally seperate issue doesn't make you a money services business.

I see people comming up with all these crazy plans or selling buying and selling off exchanges paying huge premiums to avoid taxes. Many times people are spending more money to avoid taxes than they would just paying them.

I'm no tax expert but that Bitcoin Jesus dude renounced his citizenship, now can't get into the USA for Bitcoin confrences, and is still having to pay taxes so my point is if you have significant money in this talk to an accountant and if you can legally avoid or minimize taxes go for it but I see lots of people wasting lots of time and energy on really stupiid things that either aren't going to cost them more or get them in trouble.

[jamaicabound]

One other thing I'd like to add just for people to think about. So the whole IRS comming after Coinbase records. I think it's back in the news I've seen some articles about it though honestly I havn't looked into it that much. I would bet all my Bitcoins that within the next 5 years all exchanges dealing with fiat for sure, will have some threshhold at which they are required to report. Maybe its 20k and 200 transactions, maybe its 100k, it's gonna happen, and past records will most likely be turned over as well so as some other posters have said at least make sure your saving something for when that day comes because it is comming.

For those outside of the USA this may or may not be an issue.

[Kona]

I talked to a tax lawyer about this crap today. I don't know enough to have a straight up conversation with him about it and have to send him my paperwork.

I'm in an interesting situation because coinbase doesn't serve Hawaii, and our financial regulations are more wacky than other states.

The only thing he was really clear about that I understood was that remember on top of what you pay in taxes, figure another 5 to 20 perfect for accountant/lawyer fees. People have only really filed returns that include crypto one year, and 2017 is gonna be a huge difference than 2016.

Aloha!

[TheFinalEpic]

(11-12-2017 03:51 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  

(11-12-2017 02:55 AM)semibaron Wrote:  

Many jurisdictions have ruled, that you enjoy no taxes or reduced taxes as long as you hold your crypto currency for at least 1 year.

I thought about it but it's just suicidal to hold onto any crypto for one year to cash out. Even BTC. It's even worse if you are holding a token that you have to trade into a cryptocurrency that can be cashed out. Let's say you hold IOTA for one year, you have to convert to ETH or BTC and wait for another year to cash out. Not practical and too unpredictable. It's not a viable at all.

It might work a lot better if you used crypto to buy stocks. From what I hear there is no taxes on doing this just not sure who accepts crypto for stocks. What you would do in theory is but New Zealand stocks with BTC, then wait a year and cash out your stocks for no tax.

This is why I have personally strayed from crypto markets until:
A) A mutually agreed upon futures/options exchange is instituted that has high enough liquidity for viable hedging of currencies
B) ETFs pop up with standardized options markets.

From what I've heard, this is right around the corner.

As for the taxation, foreign corporate ownership is something to look into. Specifically countries that offer low taxation on out of country operation.

Taxation in these markets is going to be playing catch up for some time.

[zoom]

I've thought about this and basically, I don't plan on selling until I can sell for a 15% capital gain. I'm willing to wait. There's no way I'm going to pay 35%.

Also, I can use the coins more as a currency. When the market is at an all-time high, I can buy stuff on overstock.com or wherever.

[jamaicabound]

(11-15-2017 10:16 AM)zoom Wrote:  

I've thought about this and basically, I don't plan on selling until I can sell for a 15% capital gain. I'm willing to wait. There's no way I'm going to pay 35%.

Also, I can use the coins more as a currency. When the market is at an all-time high, I can buy stuff on overstock.com or wherever.

I agree with you paying 35% hurts, however just to play devils advocate what if Bitcoin runs up to $10,000, you don't sell and then it spends the next year at $5500, even paying 35% woudl have been better to cash out at the high. I'm bullish and a holder so I'm with you but just like looking at all sides.

In terms of buying stuff off overstock, would be nice is the government actually implements that rule about purchasing stuff with gains being not taxed if the item is under $600. As things currently stand technically speaking you should be tracking and reporting those gains. Will you get in trouble for it? Most likely not but just wanted to be clear that is the law.

[zoom]

(11-15-2017 12:09 PM)jamaicabound Wrote:  

In terms of buying stuff off overstock, would be nice is the government actually implements that rule about purchasing stuff with gains being not taxed if the item is under $600. As things currently stand technically speaking you should be tracking and reporting those gains. Will you get in trouble for it? Most likely not but just wanted to be clear that is the law.

I didn't know that. Thanks.

[Leads]

I met a fellow american dude in Albania who was a bitcoin genius. Unfortunately, he was coked to the gills and I couldn't understand what in the living fuck he was saying. Anyway, sorry to have clogged up this thread with a vague memory