[WannaBang]

So i am no expert at game though I have improved drastically over the last year. Most of my lays have been on average 6s and from online dating with just a small handful from day game which I am focusing on now. That’s my background so here is the situation.

I approached a girl I would consider an 8.5 in Kiev back in March at the mall and got her number. She speaks no English and so we had to communicate with my very basic Russian (working on that too). We went for 2 dates both of which were walking through the park dates. I didn’t actually do anything other than walk and talk with no actual ‘gaming.’ She was super quiet and shy. I then had to leave the country for work. We kept in touch with viber every other week or so. I didn’t come back till a few weeks ago.

When I came back she met me immediately for a walk in the park date. This time she was far more open, talkative and friendly despite the language barrier and we made out in the park. At this point I had just 1 week left to try and seal the deal before I had to go again. I invited her straight to my apartment for a ‘movie night.’

She came over and we ended up making out on the bed for ages. However she would not let me escalate at all - stopping me whenever I touched her breasts. I could tell she was getting turned on from her breathing and when I was on top of her in the missionary position she thrusted her hips into me when I dry humped her. But nothing beyond kissing. She had to go home as she lived with her parents.

She didn’t see me for the whole next week and we met only on the evening before I had to leave. Obviously my expectations were very low but I had to try to go all the way if i wanted to maximise the chances she would be available when I returned again. She had been working every day apparently and barely messaged me at all and even tried to flake asking if we could postpone the meet till the next day. I had to remind her I was leaving that day.

So she came, and we were going to watch a movie but my laptop fell off the bed and the screen smashed (still dealing with that issue now but anyway). So we wrestling on the bed, making out. But the exact same problem - nothing beyond making out. Pushing my hand away when my hand went near her breasts. I didn’t get frustrated or angry - instead I chilled out and used google translate to ask if she was a virgin. Not surprisingly she said she was. I felt like trying to gently talk about feelings and build more comfort was the way to go but before much progress could be made she had to go again.

I really like this girl. Not to the point of oneitis - if she stops messaging me I am sure I will get over her as I have many girls before her. And I know it is mostly because she is an 8.5 and if I did bang her she would be the most attractive girl ever on my notch belt. And I feel a connection with her so it would be more than just sex - she is a very sweet, feminine girl and I see potential for something more depending on how it goes, especially when my Russian gets solid.

But i think I need advice on what to do when you are trying to bed an 19 year old virgin who even after 5 dates won’t let you even touch her breasts. Some of my friends say just let her go, she is the ultra conservative type (as many Ukrainian girls are) and if I go out and day game more i will find a girl just as pretty as her but who will not make me wait so much or even let me progress a little bit on each date.

I don’t really fancy going on 10 dates to close the deal (or not- I’ve had that experience before in fact). What is your experience in these types of situations and what are your reflections on how it works for you? What would you do in my shoes?

[Dasm]

Take time to get to know her, built trust and desire.

[realologist]

If you like her and enjoy spending time with her what's wrong with waiting 5-10 dates to bang. Bang other girls outside of that if you need to bust a nut but there is nothing wrong with spending time with a chick you like spending time with.

[Captain Gh]

I'm sorry... But I stopped reading at walk in the park date! Before we help you out... you have to know how to properly set up your meets... to make them exciting. There's a thread for Thutmosis about First Date Guide to Sex. Read it with pen & paper my friend!

** Edit: Well I took a moment to collect myself... and kept on reading til the end this time. You're lucky she's not that experience yet... and you still have a shot... and quite frankly I'm surprised by it.

Now if you want to Bang and not play tag with her... You have to be Bold and sexualize your next meet with her from the start. Depending on your logistics,do the best you can do... ideally a setting involving a set of Bar where you can bounce her.

If you still can't Bang... DON'T NEXT HER. Approach other girls... and try to fit her in when you have nothing else. Use her as the stepping stone to sexualize your next meet right from the start! And one more thing... stop being in awe of beautiful women.

The same way you treat a 5... you treat her the same. The better you're frame and lifestyle... the better girls you can get. That's the only difference my friend. Keep grinding you're doing Good!

[RawGod]

Captain GH have you been to Ukraine? Plenty of experienced men say a walk in the park date is standard there.

[bgbusiness]

I don't see a HUGE down side of waiting even 10 dates for this girl.
Ideally I would just wait, build more comfort and be vulnerable. Show that you are human too.

How long were your dates? If they are like 30min, 1 hour each, then I would say go on more dates.
How many hours did you spend with her face to face? if less than 10 hours, I would say you can probably spend more time with her.

I am not an expert either, but have taken couple virginities and other girls who had lay count of 2, 3, 4.
I would say just take your time. I think you are doing great. Maybe just don't even escalate much on date 6 and 7 and then she will try to escalate on you. The classic "freeze out"

[Repo]

Some people have suggested when she keeps pushing you away when you touch her under her clothes, try grabbing her hand and having her touch you. Maybe you can start with a blowjob while she keeps her clothes on, and then escalate from there.

[RatInTheWoods]

WOuldn't the effort best be spent on a broken in woman if you are not looking to get married to her?

[Leonard D Neubache]

Shame you're not looking for a wife. I advise against p&d-ing a virgin. It's bad juju.

[WannaBang]

@Captaingh. Yeah good point, unfortunately I lost both of my plates during my March trip and because I was only in Ukraine this time for 2 weeks I failed to get any more girls (during my first big 4 week trip in October I only managed to get 2 bangs and both during the last 2 days I was there). But yes I take your point and that it what I was and will continue to try to do.

@RawGod. Yeah in Ukraine I don’t do cafe or bar dates anymore because I did that last year for literally dozens of dates and it rubbed be the wrong way how it is in the cultural blueprint for girls to not even thank you for paying for their coffee or drink. I don’t drink either of these this year anyway so I don’t even go to cafes or bars anymore. This girl for sure does not drink anyway. I’ve actually seen local guys make out with girls on park benches (as has Roosh which you can read about in his Ukraine book) so I now use this protocol (2-3 park dates + then movie at mine) for the first 2 dates with Ukrainian girls.

@bgbusiness.
The dates were 1-1.5 hours each (last 2 were 2-3 hours). Definitely less than 10 hours total face time. I have the same instinct about waiting because ultimately being a super high quality girl makes her worth the effort. Back in June I actually deflowered a girl who turned out (she revealed later to me) she was a virgin in Poland. She started acting super strangely afterward not letting me bang her again the next 3 times I saw her so I had to bin her which was a shame but still. I was disappointed as fuck because she was doing EVERYTHING else right! Sweet, feminine, besotted with me. Then her attitude completely changed. To be fair being away working offshore for 6 weeks might not have helped. Anyway, I am digressing. The point is I am familiar with these freeze-out techniques though I never tried the ‘freeze out date’ where the next date is another park date where you act all aloof (or vulnerable whichever)

@Repo
Fair play! I didn’t try this putting her hand on my cock or having her give me a bj. She probably wouldn’t have done it but I didn’t try that so fair point

@Ratinthewoods and Leonard
To be honest I am actually beyond the notch counting phase for the most part (though not entirely - I feel like I need more reference experiences with getting 8s - only gotten 2 so far). I’m not looking for a wife for sure but I don’t see how I can properly assess a woman for relationship potential if I haven’t slept with her. And living in Kiev and having recently started University I reckon she will be getting ploughed there eventually anyway. Some local guy will eventually bang her so it may as well be me right? If it was some small Ukrainian town where everyone knows everyone it makes sense but anyway I am ranting, apologies. Funnily enough I found the 3 girls I banged in Kiev so far since last year were all broken in yet they all took 4-5 dates to close. That may say a lot about my limited game skills but no other country I have been to have required so many dates to pull the trigger. None. I am not hating on this obviously otherwise I wouldn’t be there still.

[RatInTheWoods]

(09-12-2017 03:42 AM)WannaBang Wrote:  

@Ratinthewoods and Leonard
Funnily enough I found the 3 girls I banged in Kiev so far since last year were all broken in yet they all took 4-5 dates to close. That may say a lot about my limited game skills but no other country I have been to have required so many dates to pull the trigger. None. I am not hating on this obviously otherwise I wouldn’t be there still.

It probably says more about the quality of women that are not sluts in that area!

Sounds good.

[Leonard D Neubache]

P+Ding a virgin is not about what it does to her. It's about what it does to you.

If you saw a drunk man lying unconscious in the street would you take his wallet? Someone else will take it if you don't, surely.

This is a PUA forum so I'm not going to preach endlessly about who to not fuck, but personally I regret some of the things I've done in my past, even if I know for certain that if I didn't do them then someone else surely would have in my place. The point is that I did those things. It's part of who I am now.

I wouldn't judge you whatever your choice, strange man from distant lands. This is just personal advice from one guy to another.

Give it some thought.

[puckerman]

A lot of women out there are just as disillusioned with the system as men are. Why disillusion a virgin? Leave her better off than when you found her. If you pump and dump, she won't be. We have a girl who probably doesn't want to be a slut. Why encourage her to become one?

[WannaBang]

I get where you guys are coming from, seriously. I am actually very interested in pumping girls but not the 2nd part. In fact out of the 30+ bangs I’ve had so far the vast majority of the girls have ‘dumped me’ usually by ghosting. The ones I dumped were mostly 4s and 5s who constituted most of the initial few bangs when I started gaming.

A girl like this I would have no interest in dumping at all. But I don’t want to commit to being her boyfriend just in exchange for sex, especially after so many dates. A couple of months ago a VERY sweet 20 year old girl from Poland gave her virginity to me (which she only told me later). I got the bang on date 4 and I never got one-itis/love so quickly. Once I banged her I had to work on the rigs on rotation. We kept in touch everyday, she sent me nudes and emotional support. I was seriously considering becoming exclusive with her - I hadn’t felt this way about any girl since my first girl (who was my girlfriend for a year and a half). Then, when I came back to Poland she refused to sleep with me three times in a row without telling me why (1st time was period which I understood). It was devastating for me. Had to let her go. She didn't seem concerned or emotional even in the slightest. I thought either she has autism or she has found a local guy while I was away. So you could say I dumped her but I didn’t pump and dump her. Hopefully that is evident

For me leaving this girl better than I found her would be the best possible outcome whether I sleep with her or not

[Lunostrelki]

The longer it takes for a girl to put out, assuming she otherwise shows consistently strong romantic interest in you, the less likely she is to be an undercover whore. This should be common sense.

And to be honest a girl who takes pictures of themselves naked is not LTR material, no matter how "sweet." Red flags. It doesn't really matter how the girl acts when she's in seduction mode, she can make anyone who's not paying careful attention think she's a goddess. The details in what she does—what kind of clothes she wears, the manner in which she provides "emotional support," how ready she is to prepare food for you and how she prepares the food, every small thing—these are the things that do not lie.

Speaking as a married man, finding a girl with no flaws in her appearance or character is impossible. But if you can identify her strengths and weaknesses before you commit, and roughly know your own attributes first, then you can find a woman that fits as your companion.

[WannaBang]

Thanks for the reply Lunostrelki!

A final update about that girl who in retrospect I developed SERIOUS oneitis with. I went to work at sea again and of course we kept in touch as we always did.

I came back to Kiev, arranged to meet her.

And she flaked. 20 minutes before we were due to meet. Said she couldn't make it. She never did this before so I gave her the benefit of the doubt.

Next day, we arrange a meet again. And she does it again. 20-30 minutes before we were meant to meet at Gulliver to go for a walk (notice I didn't invite her directly to my apartment). This time she says 'she is sick.'

I wish her well and a speedy recovery and don't message her for 2 weeks. I knew if she wanted to see me again she would message me when she was better. Maybe that was a poor judgement call or bad game on my part but I just wanted to know if it really was her being sick. She had hit me up after a break many times before but not now.

When my final few days in Kiev appear in the cross hairs I ping her one final time.

She says 'I have boyfriend.'

I wish I could say I just manned up, deleted her number and shook it off like I have done dozens of times before but when I invest months of time in a girl (which I only EVER do if I feel some kind of connection to her) as well as multiple dates and blue balls I gave her a piece of my mind. She just responded with a sad face and a 'thumbs up.'

She didn't give a flying fuck about me and probably had been seeing this guy since sometime when I was working at sea. I try not to imagine if she had lost her virginity to some skinny 19 year old local Ukrainian guy. I thought about that too much and had a mini-breakdown actually. I did get lucky at the end of my trip and bang a Russian milf from day game but what was alarming was it only slightly numbed the pain.

It could be she didn't want to date a 'risky' guy like me who is working at sea and only in Kiev every so often (though I can't stay in the country more than 180 days without a visa anyway) and so went for the safe option. But this experience jaded me a lot and I notice that my biggest lows in this girls journey have come at the hands of Eastern European women when they ghost me after date 3/4/5 right before I almost bang them. I don't mind getting rejected whilst doing day game - it barely phases me. Girls ghosting me after I got their number? Annoying but fine. Ghosting after 1,2 dates? Very annoying but it is what it is. But 3+ dates + emotional connection built up and I feel like I want to die at that moment (and many weeks after), really. I kind of worry I am eventually going to become so desensitized that forming emotional connections will be impossible

[torridon747]

I don't know anything about EE girls but sounds like you're taking it too hard buddy. That's what dating is for, to figure out if you're a good fit all the while hopefully having fun along the way. You were gone, she filled the void with someone else I don't know what else you could possibly expect from a girl you've spent a relatively short amount of time with and never even banged.

I know it's tough, I know you liked her but you said it yourself you need to man up. Think about the stuff you liked about her, think about the stuff you didn't like about her. Be the high value man that you're striving to be. If you want a cute 18-19 year old virginal EE girl with some similar qualities you'll find one again. Regardless of what's trendy nowadays nobody is a unique special snowflake, there's usually thousands if not more just like them around the corner. Maybe you'll find something completely different and you'll figure out you like that too.

I went through a tough breakup recently with a virginal girl (when I met her) I really loved and it sucked. The best thing I could do was admit and deal with my emotions, even though it doesn't feel manly to have them we still have them and I think it's healthier to experience them for what they are instead of brush them aside. Obviously don't gush emotional bullshit at every acquaintance that gives you the time of day but it helps to have some people to talk to.

I know it seems cliched and trite but no matter how you're feeling right now with jealousy, regret, or mourning. It will pass brother. In the mean time grind it out and sharpen your game so next time something like this happens you'll have a better shot at twisting the odds in your favor. Congrats on the day game bang

[torridon747]

Delete/dupe

[WannaBang]

Thanks man, I appreciate that

[Skank_Hunt]

O sing the songs of Game

Home court advantage - it's no joke. Ultimately she would prefer some poor skinny Ukrainian guy in her social circle than you, first, because you're foreign, unfamiliar and communication is difficult. Silly stuff like meaningless small talk, understanding of little cultural nuances, and inside jokes, would be known by your average Ukrainian guy. In relative terms you can barely communicate and a lot of stuff is slightly forced. "Google Translate Dates" can either heighten sexual tension and increase chances of bang, or they can be a chore and destroy it. Also you are not in the country all the time so not regarded as a stable option no matter how hard you try.

She could have been out on dates with you purposely to just get some drinks or meals, and had a BF all this time, but if the dating was genuine and she met some guy while you were away, I think she would have made him wait as well but by now he's probably banging her, missionary position with no extras probably. As plain as a piece of bread. I would say vanilla but vanilla ice cream is delicious.

I really don't like rejections from day game, I'm not going to pretend. But if there is one thing worse than that, it's getting what you think is a high quality, good girl, out on multiple dates, trying to seal the deal, wasting hours of time and emotional energy, and losing it. Then the icing on the cake, the thoughts of what "technically inferior" local guy is now dating and banging her previously untainted vagina. It's fucking painful.

All these little "tricks" for LMR like just getting your dick out so she can feel it, and trying to turn her on as much as possible in bed, and overcoming LMR being so important is so prominent in Game discussion, is so that you will be the one she has sex with and far more likely to stick by you over some other guy, this is why they were developed. It seems crude but if you get sex from a genuine virgin she is far more likely to resist the advances of local men even if you're not around all the time.

Her response with the thumbs up shows that she did not deeply care about you. Part of that is because she thinks you're a non-Ukrainian and have it very easy by comparison so it's almost like she is satisfied having caused so much pain in you. It's almost magical, but once dick goes in vagina and you fuck her good and hard, then she is far less casual about the way you feel and she will help you out with stuff you can't do because of the language barrier, take care of you when you are sick, reinitiate contact etc. It's almost like girls "know" that, even when they are virgins and haven't had sex before, so they are careful to whom they give themselves.

For me, it's annoying because the girl thinks I want primarily sex. They think that's the reason I'm trying to bang. In these virgin or very low notch count "good girls", the crude act of sticking your dick in her wet hole leads to some of the best qualities females have. They are nurturing, helpful, kind, encouraging, positive, sweet etc., and they actually give a shit about getting to know you as a unique individual versus simply judging you as a potential suitor by whatever criteria she has, and not giving a shit about whether you get run over by a bus tomorrow.

I have a weakness for the higher quality sweet EE good girls, but they are fucked and annoying in their own way. They can inflict damage in their own way.

So-called "sluts" and mean girls inflict damage in their own way too, whether by terrible attitude or their own arsenal of manipulation tools. But one positive I've found of some sluts is that they are relatively honest and have no bullshit attitudes. Obviously all girls lie, but the sluts I like are laid back enough to not take 5-10 dates to fuck, and don't question their entire life's future when they have sex with a new man.

[WannaBang]

Wow man. What you wrote perfectly articulates a lot of what is going on in my head and how I am feeling. Some very familiar insights. Money man.

Somehow I always knew that it all came down to whether or not I could close the deal and that I would finally enjoy all of those beautiful feminine qualities I crave so much. It wasn’t long in this whole pick-up journey before I got bored and desensitised to empty, notches which served to build my self-esteem which had been rock bottom for many a year. Being a former 25 year old virgin with a very dark past will do that to you.

Back in 2016 when I made my grand adventure ultimately approaching 1000 girls throughout the year in multiple countries, I spent a month in Kiev towards the end of the year. It seemed like some kind of paradise. Unlike Warsaw, numbers were converting to dates such that I had a date almost every single day (more like every 1-2 weeks in Warsaw). I was of course prepared very well for the conservative nature the Ukrainian princesses are legendary for.

However, I remember this girl I met from couchsurfing earlier on in the year who was as close to a 9 I had ever dated (to this very day. We had kept in contact all year and I ended up going on 3 dates with her. We seemed to get on so well. She was the open, English-fluent curious type who liked to travel a lot. Then when we sat on my bed and finished up watching Black Mirror I remember my heart racing like never before when I made my move. She rejected me. Not just a ‘no but try again later no’ but a real one. She just got up, put on her coat and left never to be seen again. No text, no message asking if I was ok. I had a pretty epic nervous breakdown some time later smashing my computer and drinking an entire bottle of vodka before basically staying in my room for 3 days, not even going on the several dates I had arranged before.

I know that sounds dramatic as fuck but that is where I was emotionally in those days. I have since ‘manned up’ at least relatively. I had my very last alcoholic drink on the 31st December 2016 and have been 100% sober ever since. That very same trip with the breakdown I got my first 2 Ukrainian bangs, even 1 from day game when I picked myself up 3 days later and hit the streets hard again marking a massive triumph. Unfortunately I was unable to retain either girl when I came back to Kiev last year during another long trip (when I met this virgin). I can also say the breakdown I had with this virgin while pretty devastating was no where near as horrendous as the one I had in 2016 with that ‘9.’ Not drinking, not fapping and having a hot solid fuck buddy in Poland definitely helped a lot. So I guess I am building a resistance to this. Just gotta learn from my mistakes…

What is quite interesting is I did a Jordan Peterson personality test and not to my surprise it turns out I am in the absolute top percentile when it comes to ‘neuroticism.’ I got a friend to do the quiz on my behalf too (a very close friend who has known me since I was 10) and although there were differences in most of the other traits, he also rated me high on neuroticism. So while I can do my utmost best to be a positive, high value man I do ultimately have a personality that is NOT ideal or amenable to game and dealing with women. But I do my best and will continue to improve.

I do my best not to think about that girl because it ruins my mood and makes me feel horrible but I feel apprehensive about going back to Kiev and trying again. I feel like I am not man enough for Eastern European girls, like I am too sensitive. But at the same time I am probably not likely to find what I am looking for in Poland or just about any other country I’ve visited so far so the time may come where I will indeed need to man up and put in place controls, enhanced game and plans to ensure the chances of this experience don’t repeat.

My Russian will be b1 level before I go to Ukraine, this much I know. I am thinking of going to Dnipro and bypassing Kiev period.

As a (pointless) side note, every girl I dated in Warsaw who was Ukranian or Belarusian (maybe 5 or 6 in total and without much surprise the most beautiful girls I dated in Poland) all ghosted on me after 3rd date. I did everything I could - every trick to try and break the LMR but like clockwork, some time later it was always the same: either no response at all or 'i have boyfriend.'

Another note (maybe not so pointless) is that last year prior to this whole ordeal and as I mentioned earlier I did fuck a Polish 19/20 year old virgin. 4 long, difficult dates where victory was on but the edge of a knife. I thought I was indeed going to enjoy the full benefits of what you (Skank Hunt) listed only to be sorely disappointed when I returned. But I guess she isn't Eastern European so who knows.