[teflon]

I'm experiencing something like option paralysis or the paradox of choice, where my life has changed so drastically in such a short time that I am struggling to chart a path for my future.

First let me say I do not believe I can live outside of the US as I have a pet. You may scoff at this but I'm responsible for a living thing and I do enjoy its company. Moving with a pet and potential quarantines are daunting. Additionally, though I still have a ton of traveling to do, I am not entirely convinced that the grass is that much greener outside of the US. I don't discount the convenience and safety of the US, nor do I discount socializing with people from my native culture instead of being forced to learn an entirely new one. I also like the outdoors and we have a pretty amazing variety of outdoor experiences in "flyover country." Finally, I doubt that the people who rage against the US would feel the same way if they had location/time independence and a bankroll. I do recognize the culture is messed up and we have a lot of problems, I'm a RVF member after all. The only non US travel I have done so far is Korea, Vietnam, Taiwan, Spain, and Greece. My goal is to expand this list greatly, but it is a slow process as other areas of my life need work as well and time away from home prevents that from progressing. Also I was not a big fan of Asia personally.

I am seeking a location where I can post up for a long time and enjoy a successful and fulfilling life, date a lot of women, and find a high quality one who values commitment eventually.

I grew up poor in nowheresville, Midwest. I extricated myself from that hellhole after 27long years and realized the importance of location and how much moving impacted my happiness. I have traveled extensively all over the US. I lived in Los Angeles for a few years. However, it was not ideal as I was broke trying to start my business and living in utter squalor. While I enjoyed aspects of it, I felt it was not the city for me. From there I moved to the Tampa/St Pete area of FL where I am now. At this time my business began taking off, I stopped living like a peasant, and all of a sudden I was having success with women again. I immediately made the mistake of getting into a LTR with a girl 10 years my junior (I'm early 30s) that imploded. I'm certain she was BPD, from a low class family with no real education and had a bad home environment in her youth. I find myself getting involved with these hot but low-quality women constantly and I think it is partially a function of location and projected socioeconomic status. What I mean by projected is that I was doing well but not projecting it, still dressing sloppy and driving a beater etc to save money and maintain my freedom.

The budget has relaxed quite a bit and I splurged on a brand new quality wardrobe, ditched the flip flops for stylish shoes, got a (used) luxury German car, stopped living with roommates and rented a nice house, and rededicated myself to fitness with good results. Now I find myself far more optimized for success with women and just quality people in general, but I'm in a suburban part of town that i moved to as a consequence of the LTR. In FL that means a lot of retirees, avg age 48! Lease is up soon and I can move. Recently on trips to NYC and W Europe, my jaw dropped at how there are just smoke shows passing by every two seconds on the sidewalk. If these girls existed in my area, I would never even see them due to the driving culture and low density. I felt alive and was getting good responses from the women. I am convinced walkability and density are key and worth paying any price, which I can now do.

As a near lifelong poor midwesterner, I've been playing intense catch-up for years now. I'm still behind the curve but my trajectory is good. I am doing my best to become more interesting, gain more knowledge, become proficient at more skills, travel more, learn languages and cultures. I feel that this is the path to meeting higher quality people and also dating higher quality women. For instance in NYC and the Euro capitals there are mid-20s gorgeous girls from solid families who have traveled, have college educations, and can support themselves. Really the total package. After dating all these hot but worthless skeezers it would be nice if the girl was more on my level. I find myself having to take care of everything, which eventually turns them off because I seem like a pleaser. But it is necessary since they are literally incapable of functioning as human beings. I am looking to move to a place where I can meet these people.

My first though is not to throw away the network and lifestyle I have built here, and to just move to the dense core of town. There are two areas that are walkable, dense, and teeming with beautiful women. Hyde Park / Soho in South Tampa is one and downtown St Pete is the other. I am thinking this would be good to try first, especially since I do like Florida (weather, outdoors, no taxes etc). However, I am apprehensive that things still might not be "happening" for me here, as the areas are still small and provincial. I hope I'm wrong. But my idea of a city is Barcelona, and I realize this is not achievable in the US. Chicago during the summer is excellent and pretty much my ideal, but the winters would be unbearable...even worse than the ones from my hometown that made me so miserable for so long. I enjoyed Denver / Boulder and need to do some more exploring there but again the winters put me off, though they don't seem nearly as bad as the Midwest since the sun shines and it's dry. The SWPL mindset there is another issue, though. I am not a lazy "chill" stoner and am on a self improvement warpath. I would like to end up as more of a Donald Trump or Dan Bilzerian than a Cheech & Chong. I tried Los Angeles once, although I was poor, but not really interested in doing it again now. One place I have never been is San Diego. I love Santa Barbara and have friends there but it may be a bit small, also SWPLS again. San Francisco has shit weather and is the SWPL capital. I would rather stay where I am than go to Miami, I think...would rather be a big fish in a medium pond than a guppy in a huge one, all else equal. Also I'm mainly into white girls, though I'd prefer foreign. Another I am very curious about is NYC...guys on here rave about it all the time so it is very appealing. I love the walkability. It feels like a "real" city. And I can now afford it. But again, winters. I haven't experienced a winter there, don't know how it compares to the Midwest, but I hear it's not good.

Thankfully money is really no object anymore (within reason, I'm not buying yachts and shit). I'm not sure how much a baller pad in downtown manhattan would be. I know that locally, apartments seem to max out at a low $1600/mo, I would actually prefer to pay much more for a swank luxury penthouse situation but it doesn't seem like that is available here, more of a big city thing I guess.

If you were limited to the US and money was truly not a problem, as an early 30s man, where would you go? I really feel like a guy with a bankroll and unlimited free time can still do well in the US, but now that I have unlimited options I am overwhelmed by all the choice and possibility. Good problem to have, but a problem nonetheless.

[djk100]

Why not split your time between NYC, Miami, and other places?

[teflon]

I am considering that. However, not sure how it would work in practice. One of my concerns is that it takes awhile for me to really get settled and build a network in a new city, get a social life, etc. I'm also involved in some activities that require commitment such as BJJ...not sure how promotion and lineage would work if I was splitting time between two cities...that is of course a secondary concern, I don't think I should limit myself due to that. I'm concerned that a significant amount of the work I did in building a life in one city would be wiped away when I move to the next, ad infinitum. Can anyone who has done this comment?

The other issue is housing. In Tampa, it seems most higher end places require 12 month leases. I've seen 6 months available at some of the cookie cutter type apartments. It doesn't mean it's out of the question. It also seems like a bit of a pain to apply for a new lease and hunt for accommodations every 6mos. Buying instead of renting two pads is not an option if NYC is in the mix, as I'm not at the level where I could afford a downtown manhattan pad and Tampa house bought cash (no financing). Maintaining two apartments at the same time might be feasible if it's say Tampa and Denver, not NYC. I would not be willing to maintain baller pads in NYC + another city. I can, but the cost makes me cringe. It just seems so wasteful, coming from my background. I am not writing this off, it's just something that would require a lot of coordination. And possibly also annoying moving expenses (I finally furnished my place after living a third of my life in spartan fashion.

Can anyone who has accomplished the dual-city lifestyle comment on how they did it?

Another factor is that at the end of the day, I would like a LTR. Gaming exhausts me and I am slightly more introverted than extroverted. I will likely have to date a lot to get there, due to the state of women in our culture...but that is the end goal. Rotating between cities would make that impossible, as a girl is stuck in one city for her daily grind. I could liberate her from that, but doubt it would end well.

[Jetset]

A few thoughts. We have a similar background.

- also grew up in the poorer corners of the midwest.
- left home at 20 for the northeast.
- started banging regularly, put myself through college.
- now early 30s, high income.
- have traveled fairly widely, but usually with American women, not solo.
- in an LTR, not sure if it has a future at this point.

(08-08-2017 09:11 AM)teflon Wrote:  

I am not entirely convinced that the grass is that much greener outside of the US. I don't discount the convenience and safety of the US, nor do I discount socializing with people from my native culture instead of being forced to learn an entirely new one. I also like the outdoors and we have a pretty amazing variety of outdoor experiences in "flyover country." Finally, I doubt that the people who rage against the US would feel the same way if they had location/time independence and a bankroll.

I have no "rage against the US" unlike some here, but the truth is that location/time independence and American bankroll are among the strongest possible indicators for leaving the United States.

We have amazing outdoor experiences, but so do many other places, and the same can be said for convenience/safety. The gap has closed in much of the world, and in some respects the United States is actually not that safe or convenient. The women are, on average, fat, loud, and entitled to the point that it's hard to eat in restaurants with them after I come back from extended trips just because their voices are terrible. Americans tend to be blind to this as it's part of our national mythology that everywhere else sucks.

With that said, I believe there are decent value options in the United States, as well, and respect where you're coming from. I just wanted to keep your mind open. If you want to move, you can work out the dog situation.

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I'm in a suburban part of town that i moved to as a consequence of the LTR.

Yep, time for a bachelor pad in the city.

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My first though is not to throw away the network and lifestyle I have built here, and to just move to the dense core of town. There are two areas that are walkable, dense, and teeming with beautiful women. Hyde Park / Soho in South Tampa is one and downtown St Pete is the other. I am thinking this would be good to try first, especially since I do like Florida (weather, outdoors, no taxes etc). However, I am apprehensive that things still might not be "happening" for me here, as the areas are still small and provincial.

Tampa is not a terrible city. However, it's not a showcase city, either. If you love it there, you should put your happiness first. However, you seem to have serious questions about it, and if you're free to try something else for a year or two and come back, why wouldn't you?

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Another I am very curious about is NYC...guys on here rave about it all the time so it is very appealing. I love the walkability. It feels like a "real" city. And I can now afford it. But again, winters. I haven't experienced a winter there, don't know how it compares to the Midwest, but I hear it's not good.

NYC is a fantastic city. The winters are not good, but relatively mild compared to Chicago. The downside is that housing costs are absurd and there's a residency-based income tax on top of the state income tax. (Illinois is jacking their flat income tax soon, as well.) Your standards for a "baller pad" are a controlling factor, but not many women in NYC expect you to have what would qualify as baller in Tampa. I would strongly recommend investigating the area around Washington Square/Union Square. Unless you're made of money, though, maybe it'd make more sense to choose a situation where you can visit NYC freely.

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If you were limited to the US and money was truly not a problem, as an early 30s man, where would you go? I really feel like a guy with a bankroll and unlimited free time can still do well in the US, but now that I have unlimited options I am overwhelmed by all the choice and possibility.

Have you considered the desert southwest at all? Phoenix, in particular, is the "big city" there and while it's not a beehive of walkability, it's full of smoking hot white girls who take care of themselves, affordable like Tampa with low taxes to boot, great airport, and you can find plenty of women with LTR qualities once you get outside of the Scottsdale/Tempe cock carousel. The outdoor options are arguably second-to-none in this country and people of means migrate into the mountains, down to the San Diego beaches, or otherwise take their vacations during the worst of the summer heat.

(Not that the Scottsdale/Tempe cock carousel isn't incredible. Scottsdale offers a miniature Las Vegas in the Old Town party scene, ASU is a major party school, and there's some tourist churn through the winter.)

[Svoboda]

OP would it really be that hard to move to Europe with your dog?
Let me guess, some shots, maybe a chip inplant and some paperwork that you can pay an agency to do for you.
I don't see how that could hold you back.

You've only been to Spain and Greece, and you're very positive about the women that walk on the streets. I suggest you go visit Poland soon. Other countries too, but Poland should give you an idea about what you're missing out on, plus you can easily move to Poland (there's a thread about it).

About being an American etc. I get that you think you'd miss interactions, but it's not like you can't meet other americans or locals that get along well with you being an American.

Let's say you try Europe for some time (6 months, a year?) and it doesn't work for you. You move back to the USA, lost some time, but now you're that guy that lived in Europe which makes you more interesting and well rounded (in the eyes of the type of women you're looking for).

If you insist on the USA, I'd stay out of NYC for reasons of high costs and high competition. Being location independent you should stay somewhere where you get good value for your dollar and where you are a one of the top catches on the market.

General advice, move to a city with lots of college/uni students nearby.

[Shimmy]

Living in Chicago from another part in the Midwest I can say you will become even more successful. You want to surround yourself with successful people as much as possible. Not sure how that will play out in Tampa. I like big cities so my only picks for USA are Chicago and NYC. SF is also a large city that has lots of successful people but living there you will surround yourself with beta liberals and feminists.

If you want to live in dual cities put your place up on airbnb long term and if it rents you can go somewhere else.

[Jetset]

Another consideration, by the way, is growth.

I would choose a growing city if I were you, a place where people are moving. This helps with networking and social circle game, since you'll be surrounded by other people who are from somewhere else, have an outgoing/optimistic perspective, and are trying to build lives, too. It's a very different situation from being surrounded by a bunch of people who went to high school together. The vibe from talking to locals in Phoenix is very different from Chicago, even though half the people in Phoenix are seemingly from Chicago, and I think that is why.

[Robert Plant]

Santa Barbara is great for outdoor activities and great for women until you are in your mid to upper 20s and can still hook up w college girls. The problem is there are not a lot of young, single, professional women around. To make things worse there is a tech boom underway so we are being flooded w enginerds in their 20s (mostly male). Its not impossible and the quality is good. But, it is a competaive place.

[teflon]

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A few thoughts. We have a similar background.

Congrats on your success, brother, and thanks for your reply.

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The women are, on average, fat, loud, and entitled to the point that it's hard to eat in restaurants with them after I come back from extended trips just because their voices are terrible.

I laughed out loud at this because it's so true. I absolutely agree with everything you said and I'm very much with this forum as far as views on the West, but I don't think it's impossible to forge a good existence here, especially if money is abundant. I do see how other countries have major advantages, but they also have cons as well. I just don't want to jump on the expatriation-will-solve-everything cart. However, I do have a lot of traveling to do and if I fall in love with some place, then I guess a move will be necessary.

I actually do like Tampa very much, it's just that I am out in the suburbs (this will be resolved within a month or two). I think moving to the heart of the action will change a lot for me, but not sure if anything can quite measure up to the experience of a true world class city. I fish with a buddy of mine who is probably the best fisherman in the area. The guy is rich and obsessed. We catch Tarpon and other monsters. I've considered buying a cheap ($20k) boat to mess around at the sandbars but it would be an albatross if I do end up moving. One step at a time.

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I would strongly recommend investigating the area around Washington Square/Union Square.

Thanks, this is absolute gold. I had it narrowed down to lower manhattan, but was at a loss beyond that. The area you're talking about does look very nice and I will walk it extensively on my upcoming NYC visit. A quick look at PadMapper seems like a decent 1bdrm runs 3-3.5k in this area, is that correct? Looks like the sky is the limit, with some of them soaring into the 5 figure monthly rents. A 3k pad here and a 2k pad in a warm place might not be out of the question, so this is interesting. Also a badass BJJ scene up there.

I was a bit ignorant before in that I wasn't specific enough when moving...I would plop myself into a metro area and figure I'm getting the same experience as everyone else. In reality, there are microscopic areas of each city that are optimized for a good lifestyle. There must be like 10 square miles of land in the US that would be suitable. Off the top of my head I have:

Hyde park / soho in Tampa
Downtown Manhattan NYC (coupled with a warm city)
Right in old town in Scottsdale
Maybe parts of San Diego?
Maybe Santa Barbara but kinda small?

And that seems to be about it for me.

I'm intrigued by your mention of Phoenix. Phoenix itself didn't inspire me but Scottsdale was absolutely loaded with my type of girls. I didn't spend much time there unfortunately but it impressed me and the forum seems to regard it very positively. I also have a ton of entrepreneur buddies that have chosen it as their home base despite being Location independent, which is a great sign. All the sun is a major positive. During which months is it unlivable? It seems like maybe just June July August, so that could be remedied by vacationing instead of a dual-city setup. 3 months is a lot easier than 6. Let me know if it's insanely hot for longer than that though. I also do like the proximity to some of my favorite outdoors spots. I realize it is the deser, but is there any body of water for boating nearby?

[teflon]

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OP would it really be that hard to move to Europe with your dog?

Depends on the country. Most of the places guys here rave about are not places I would feel very comfortable having a pet, and transportation might be risky. Something like the Eurozone is pretty simple, but I would have to be damn sure about the move because the cargo hold on a transatlantic flight is a risk. But that's the eurozone, which I don't see as better than America unless for vacationing. I will do some more traveling and if some place blows me away, I'll look more into it. For now I think my US lifestyle can be optimized much more.

I definitely owe Poland a visit. I know Roosh himself lived there. However, it doesn't really seem like my kind of place at all on the surface. I use the "% sunlight hours" metric and all of Europe is pretty much shit in this regard except for the Mediterranean. Poland especially. A cold, grey place does not appeal to me. I've heard the girls aren't incredible and while that's cool, I have to strike a balance. With my bankroll I should be able to get the hypergamy hamster going in a US city.

Regarding competition, it's also a balance. I could move to rural Kansas and kill it, but do I really want the girls there? I'm sure there are some quality ones, but there would be a ton of the same low class trash I'm used to to sort through first. Obesity, single motherhood etc. And then add the fact that these type of girls are looking for a certain type of guy because it's what they're familiar with...he's probably another loser. I'm not interested in beating my girl or whatever the hell they grew up with.

So there has to be enough competition that the type of girl I want is af least present in quantity. While it may not be wise to go full retard and move to NYC, the most expensive place on earth, there is really nothing stopping me from succeeding in a major city with my stats.

Another issue with NYC is LTR material. Not sure if that is common there? It would be fun to get laid more than ever before, but after watching a lot of Jordan Peterson, I am pretty sure that is not a viable long term strategy for s fulfilling life.

[Jetset]

(08-08-2017 06:43 PM)teflon Wrote:  

However, I do have a lot of traveling to do and if I fall in love with some place, then I guess a move will be necessary.

As a random off-the-wall thought, I was in Crete recently and learned that Greece has a residency-by-investment program that apparently comes with a Schengen visa. I don't know the details, but it starts at 250k, which can seemingly include buying vacation rentals to operate...and 250k goes far down there. If you like boats and white girls, I could think of worse lifestyle choices than pipelining them down for weekend getaways in Chania.

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Thanks, this is absolute gold. I had it narrowed down to lower manhattan, but was at a loss beyond that. The area you're talking about does look very nice and I will walk it extensively on my upcoming NYC visit. A quick look at PadMapper seems like a decent 1bdrm runs 3-3.5k in this area, is that correct?

Yeah, you can spend as much as you want, and $3k/mo is probably entry-level for a decent place. The neighborhood is crawling with NYU girls at night, and you could easily bar-hop that whole belt from St. Mark's Place over to MacDougal Street for many weekends before you run out of new establishments.

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I'm intrigued by your mention of Phoenix. Phoenix itself didn't inspire me but Scottsdale was absolutely loaded with my type of girls. I didn't spend much time there unfortunately but it impressed me and the forum seems to regard it very positively. I also have a ton of entrepreneur buddies that have chosen it as their home base despite being Location independent, which is a great sign. All the sun is a major positive. During which months is it unlivable? It seems like maybe just June July August, so that could be remedied by vacationing instead of a dual-city setup. 3 months is a lot easier than 6. Let me know if it's insanely hot for longer than that though. I also do like the proximity to some of my favorite outdoors spots. I realize it is the deser, but is there any body of water for boating nearby?

That was something I was going to ask you, since boating and fishing seems like a big attraction for Florida. There are some fine options. Look up Lake Pleasant (specifically, spring break) for female beauty, Saguaro Lake for natural beauty. People also like to go kayaking/canoeing on the Salt River, there's wild horses there.

On the heat, July/August are the worst, and then the monsoon storms come and start breaking it up. Outdoorsmen are advised to use caution from April to October. I've spent time there in August, and you just need to have the good sense to take advantage of the shade and air conditioning where you find it and not try to go hiking or mountain biking. (There's a news story every week during high summer where somebody fails that simple IQ test and then dies on the helicopter ride to the hospital.) Dry heat, it's nice to not be drenched in your own sweat when you go out on a summer night like you are in the midwest or southeast.

If you want some specifics on neighborhoods and accommodations in that area, let me know and I'll PM you. I've been all over it with a realtor and viewed a lot of apartments.

[mammal]

OP: TL;DR
Consider putting most of your stuff in storage and renting furnished temporarily, a month at a time in different places. Nothing like living there forawhile. Then settle down.

[Naughty By Nature]

Chicago
NYC

Everything else

[El Chinito loco]

The best U.S. city is to leave the U.S.

[teflon]

I have an update. I left the burbs and I'm now in the densest part of Tampa, where all the young professionals and college age people congregate. Life has improved exponentially. I feel phenomenal, I give zero fucks about my previous relationship, I'm working towards fitness and business goals, wasted time from commuting and other BS is drastically cut, there are more things to do, and I'm surrounded by a better demographic.

However I still have my doubts. Since buying my new wardrobe to project my elevated status, I've realized I can't really wear much of it here. This place is hot and humid as fuck. Don't get me wrong, I prefer it to a nasty winter, but for half of the year anything beyond shorts and a tshirt/tank is pretty much out of the question. Maybe long pants if it's night time, allowing me to rock boots. MAYBE. Jackets are out, layers are out. I never really noticed this before as I would just throw on whatever clothes were available without a thought.

Boat game seems to work well here but I'm hesitant to get one as it would be an annoying albatross if I do decide to move.

My true passion has always been the outdoors. Mostly hiking, mountains, that kind of thing. I get my fix here by kayaking the springs, fishing, going to the beach, but it isn't the same as hiking an epic multi-day trail or ascending a mountain peak. Multiple times per year I fly to several national parks to go on these adventures. California was pretty nice for this kind of thing (but bad in so many other ways) but Florida has absolutely none of this.

I fondly remember my time in Colorado (Denver, Boulder) where women were all over me. For some reason I felt like the type of guy the girls there look for. Kind of a rugged mountain man type but not an unkempt slob. They were constantly throwing themselves at me. I only visited, never lived there long term, but I was impressed. However, I am put off by the winters and the batty liberals, pot heads, and California exports. It seems worse in Boulder than Denver. This area had the notable advantage of being in a prime spot for incredible outdoors opportunities. People here call it Menver which perplexes me.

Maybe I'm crazy but another dark horse candidate here seems to be Saint George UT. I couldn't find any info on this city here. I love American dirty blonde white girls, and many Mormons fit this type. The city is almost entirely white so plenty of that type around. My money would buy me an insane crib out there. It isn't horribly far from Vegas, SLC, and Phoenix and is near a lot of incredible hiking as well. As has been discussed on here, Mormon girls age well and have great values. I just couldn't bring myself to accept their loony religion with a straight face. My concern is that if you're not LDS, you won't associate with these people. And if you happen to break through and find a girl who is willing, her parents may shut it down.

I'm looking for more of an LTR type obviously. I have a hot 19 year old throwing herself at me but she has the most red flags of anyone I've ever met. Can't do it (commitment wise). Getting dates here is not an issue, but the girls, while physically attractive, don't vibe well with me. They are more conservative and definitely non-PC which is refreshing, but the prime activity here seems to be drinking and partying. I don't do much of that anymore and can't really find the desire to. I've considered more "alpha" tier cities like NY, SF etc but I would be horrified if I surrounded myself with SJWs.

Have trips to Manhattan and Scottsdale booked for next month.

One thing I consistently see is that everyone here, like everywhere else I've seen in the states, is dominated by their female counterparts. They run the whole show. The guys chase a lot. I don't want to chase. I want to get a chick who likes ME and makes the effort to be with ME. I don't think there is any other way to do it that doesn't end in disaster. Does this exist still in the states? Outside of the states?

Is there really no great spot left in the US? Expatriating and potentially learning another language and culture, while interesting, also seems very daunting. I...want to....believe....