[Suits]

(07-10-2017 08:32 AM)glugger Wrote:  

Do people really care about healthy food in asia?

I can't say for certain, but if had a small place and your target audience was professional expats and educated locals who worked a lot and valued an affordable neighbourhood eatery that they could eat at regularly while pursuing their gym goals, the strategy (combined with a little consumer education) could make sense.

That's neither here nor there, however, since I have zero intention of pursing investment into the F&B industry before I'm at least 60 and want a hobby that also functions as a giant money pit.

[PainPositive]

(07-09-2017 08:49 PM)Spaniard88 Wrote:  

(07-09-2017 07:41 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  

I've worked for bars that had heavy cartel presence in Mexico. Before I was GM I was head of security and we made arrangements that pleased everyone. Everyone did their thing and there were no problems. The Serbian mob works the same way.

Every shady organization I've come into contact with just wants to get paid. "Breaking someone" is bad for business.

Unless you have some insight or personal experience with how this works in Kiev I'd say you're assuming a lot about how these things work. Maybe too many gangster movies.

Please correct me if I'm wrong because I'd be interested to hear how the other expat owned bars operate there.

I'll gladly correct you, it might save some naive guy from bodily harm. The assumptions you're making are wrong. Everyone does not just "do their thing and there are no problems," everything is enforced with violence. "Breaking someone is bad for business" is a thought that's the product of a logical mind, which not all criminals have.

Some of your assumptions are the ones that lead naive young men to enter organized crime themselves to begin with.

Here's one assumption made by naive young guys that join these criminal groups:

"I'm one of the bad guys now, I'm a member of the group, no one will mess with me now, and I'm going to get paid."

Here's the reality:

"There are many factions of evil. You've now joined one. By no longer being a civilian, and expressly joining one faction, you've now made yourself an explicit enemy of every other faction, as well as the state itself and the factions of the state that are bought off by other criminal factions. Your lifespan, and most likely that of your family as well, will be shorter as a result."

If there's one organization controlling things, it can pan out as you described, for as long as that lasts (that's the key), but as soon as there's a leadership crisis, it's every man for himself, and when that happens, people get killed all over the place. If the organization is in a state of instability for too long, to where it splinters irrevocably into various factions, then that's where you get racketeering gone wild, with people bled so much (sometimes not just metaphorically) that entire sections of a city, including the bars therein, become shuttered up and abandoned.

By opening a business in an environment where the rule of law is not very strong, what you're doing, in addition to taking the usual business risks, is betting that organized crime will remain stable, and benign, for the entire life of your business. This is not a bet I would make, because I don't want to attach my fortunes to the fortunes of organized crime, I want to simply run numbers and marketing campaigns and make people's lives better by offering a quality product or service, not wonder if someone high up in organized crime having a heart attack is going to lead to visits to my place of business or my home by violent thugs intent on extortion.

That's how that works. Again, if you think every member of organized crime is emotionally and mentally stable enough to not kill the goose that laid the golden egg, you are wrong. While some may be intelligent enough parasites to not kill the host, many are not.

Your bar experience was under some tranquility, that's great, but that's not guaranteed to last forever, so don't think that's always the state of affairs. In sum, in addition to having to make profit to keep the business intact, you also have to make enough profit to satisfy your new boss, the psychopath at the head of your local organized crime syndicate. By doing this, you basically take the chance of becoming someone's bitch, instead of your own man, and also, of losing your limbs or of having your family hurt or killed.

Most people reading this are not "Billy Badass," despite what they might think, and even if they are, there's nothing badass about getting your testicles or other appendages cut off.

F*** that. If you're going to start a business like a bar while living in Ukraine or a place like it, unless you speak the native language and have lifelong local connections there with considerable weight, there's definitely an added, completely unnecessary, level of mental, physical, and financial risk.

I didn't ask for your scary nightmares I asked for your personal experience. While some of what you're saying may be logical it's certainly not the rule nor is it what has happened in my experience. Everyone who does business in New York has to eventually deal with the mob. Most of the time it's just business. Thanks for your input. Really interesting seeing how someone from the outside imagines it.

[jcardial]

(07-09-2017 07:41 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  

I've worked for bars that had heavy cartel presence in Mexico. Before I was GM I was head of security and we made arrangements that pleased everyone. Everyone did their thing and there were no problems. The Serbian mob works the same way.

Every shady organization I've come into contact with just wants to get paid. "Breaking someone" is bad for business.

Unless you have some insight or personal experience with how this works in Kiev I'd say you're assuming a lot about how these things work. Maybe too many gangster movies.

Please correct me if I'm wrong because I'd be interested to hear how the other expat owned bars operate there.

I would argue that Mexico is a strong counterexample. In Playa del Carmen, post-Blue Parrot shooting, over half of the most successful bars and clubs that were almost certainly paying protection were nevertheless strong armed into closing shop and basically had to hand over the keys to the group that is in cahoots with the most powerful cartel. Blue Parrot, Santanera, Mescalina, Dolores all closed shop within a couple weeks and the list goes on. No reasonable protection fee sufficed for these places.

The shit hit the fan when Blue Parrot tried to stand strong by not paying up during the BPM festival and it resulted in 5 deaths, mostly event employees. There was also just recently a cartel related shooting at the club Vaquitas on 12th. This is one of Mexico's biggest expat havens and tourism draws and the situation has pretty much over night escalated to gangster movie proportions.

Ukraine might not be quite as lawless or trigger happy as Mexico, but in such a corrupt place you do have to price in the risk of getting man handled, especially as a foreigner. I have a friend who successfully opened two expat bars in Buenos Aires but he has to pay everyone from the local police to the garbage collectors. He has managed to make it work, but the headaches he's experienced over the years have been epic. Everything from inside job robberies to local politicians deciding they didn't like the noise and pulling strings to have them closed for weeks.

[PainPositive]

(07-09-2017 09:20 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

(07-09-2017 07:41 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  

I've worked for bars that had heavy cartel presence in Mexico. Before I was GM I was head of security and we made arrangements that pleased everyone. Everyone did their thing and there were no problems. The Serbian mob works the same way.

Every shady organization I've come into contact with just wants to get paid. "Breaking someone" is bad for business.

Unless you have some insight or personal experience with how this works in Kiev I'd say you're assuming a lot about how these things work. Maybe too many gangster movies.

Please correct me if I'm wrong because I'd be interested to hear how the other expat owned bars operate there.

How was your relationship with them?

I knew some folks who owned a strip club in Guanajuato. They had a bunch of big titted girls from Colombia, Venezuela, some from Ukraine, Russia, Czech Rep, and other places. When the Maruchan Army (Zetas) moved in, they just wanted their weekly payment (Cuota). With time they started congregating there more, then demanding free drinks.....then wanting to fuck the sluts, move their drugs around, etc. At the end, they took over the place, turned it into a strip club/whorehouse, forced the owners to sign over it legally, and shot one of the owners as a warning to not tell the authorities. The girls were moved around to other strip clubs. Biz went downhill from there and not many people went there since the prices were high and sometimes the guys would do stupid shit while drugged/drunk.

But then again, after the OG Zetas died (#1-31) the Maruchans became undisciplined and known for not giving a fuck about many things.

Edit: Not trying to create and argument. Just want to see how was your experience, you managed it, and it turned out. Biz management in risky places is one of my fave things to learn about.

No worries CR I'm also interested to hear other people's experience or their friends exp. I actually delt with a crew you mentioned. They are dangerous no doubt. They have even started causing some real problemas for people with bars in Mex and further south. No doubt there is risk and you have to be careful. One example is Acapulco. It used to be a celebrity hang out in the 50s now it's a 3rd world hell- hole.

For us things were already established since we took the same deal as everyone else-

Now that I'm thinking about it I don't want to give too many specifics since I think I posted about where I was before. I'll write you in PM if you want details of who and where I was working with them.

Basically though all bars had the same deal and it didn't cost us any money and was pretty fair. They did their thing and we told security they didn't have to pay cover or be searched/checked. We got to know them and they just became another regular. This was the norm in the area. I will say that for "mega clubs" the game was a little more high stake when the rival gangs fought over territory but for a small to medium sized place it wasn't an issue.

[MongolianAbroad]

(07-10-2017 11:16 AM)PainPositive Wrote:  

(07-09-2017 08:49 PM)Spaniard88 Wrote:  

(07-09-2017 07:41 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  

I've worked for bars that had heavy cartel presence in Mexico. Before I was GM I was head of security and we made arrangements that pleased everyone. Everyone did their thing and there were no problems. The Serbian mob works the same way.

Every shady organization I've come into contact with just wants to get paid. "Breaking someone" is bad for business.

Unless you have some insight or personal experience with how this works in Kiev I'd say you're assuming a lot about how these things work. Maybe too many gangster movies.

Please correct me if I'm wrong because I'd be interested to hear how the other expat owned bars operate there.

I'll gladly correct you, it might save some naive guy from bodily harm. The assumptions you're making are wrong. Everyone does not just "do their thing and there are no problems," everything is enforced with violence. "Breaking someone is bad for business" is a thought that's the product of a logical mind, which not all criminals have.

Some of your assumptions are the ones that lead naive young men to enter organized crime themselves to begin with.

Here's one assumption made by naive young guys that join these criminal groups:

"I'm one of the bad guys now, I'm a member of the group, no one will mess with me now, and I'm going to get paid."

Here's the reality:

"There are many factions of evil. You've now joined one. By no longer being a civilian, and expressly joining one faction, you've now made yourself an explicit enemy of every other faction, as well as the state itself and the factions of the state that are bought off by other criminal factions. Your lifespan, and most likely that of your family as well, will be shorter as a result."

If there's one organization controlling things, it can pan out as you described, for as long as that lasts (that's the key), but as soon as there's a leadership crisis, it's every man for himself, and when that happens, people get killed all over the place. If the organization is in a state of instability for too long, to where it splinters irrevocably into various factions, then that's where you get racketeering gone wild, with people bled so much (sometimes not just metaphorically) that entire sections of a city, including the bars therein, become shuttered up and abandoned.

By opening a business in an environment where the rule of law is not very strong, what you're doing, in addition to taking the usual business risks, is betting that organized crime will remain stable, and benign, for the entire life of your business. This is not a bet I would make, because I don't want to attach my fortunes to the fortunes of organized crime, I want to simply run numbers and marketing campaigns and make people's lives better by offering a quality product or service, not wonder if someone high up in organized crime having a heart attack is going to lead to visits to my place of business or my home by violent thugs intent on extortion.

That's how that works. Again, if you think every member of organized crime is emotionally and mentally stable enough to not kill the goose that laid the golden egg, you are wrong. While some may be intelligent enough parasites to not kill the host, many are not.

Your bar experience was under some tranquility, that's great, but that's not guaranteed to last forever, so don't think that's always the state of affairs. In sum, in addition to having to make profit to keep the business intact, you also have to make enough profit to satisfy your new boss, the psychopath at the head of your local organized crime syndicate. By doing this, you basically take the chance of becoming someone's bitch, instead of your own man, and also, of losing your limbs or of having your family hurt or killed.

Most people reading this are not "Billy Badass," despite what they might think, and even if they are, there's nothing badass about getting your testicles or other appendages cut off.

F*** that. If you're going to start a business like a bar while living in Ukraine or a place like it, unless you speak the native language and have lifelong local connections there with considerable weight, there's definitely an added, completely unnecessary, level of mental, physical, and financial risk.

I didn't ask for your scary nightmares I asked for your personal experience. While some of what you're saying may be logical it's certainly not the rule nor is it what has happened in my experience. Everyone who does business in New York has to eventually deal with the mob. Most of the time it's just business. Thanks for your input. Really interesting seeing how someone from the outside imagines it.

This is my personal experience, albeit in Mexico, not in Ukraine, but both are experiencing low-grade civil wars, have strong mafias, and a weak state. The similarities are enough to be cautious. I could give lots of accounts like Cattle Rustler's, but I figure one is enough for most folks to get the gist of it.

Basing one's assumptions about what happens in places like Ukraine or Mexico based on an experience as an employee of a bar in Mexico and on what happens in New York City, a first class city, is the kind of thing that can end badly.

I'm not going to take the bait and insult you back, you're a person I've never met on the internet and I've really got nothing against you. Moving on.

[MongolianAbroad]

Also, guys, let's touch upon the elephant in the room.

Brick and Mortar? Really? With so many opportunities to build online businesses that both scale and have low start up costs, why keep hammering away at Brick and Mortar?

My best friend's family owns many restaurants/bars, and one thing they are focusing on now, after a lifetime of creating wealth in that business, is to transition their capital from restaurants to real estate, both consumer and commercial. The restaurant business "es muy matado." Translation, "It's very grueling." And that's if you're successful. If you go the franchise model (creating your own brand and franchising it out), that's another story, but that's only a tiny percentage of folks that open bars/restaurants.

I do get the social benefits, though, like OP mentioned, but to me it just seems trivial compared to the paperwork involved, the capital required, the laws that have to be abided by, the inspections you have to prepare for, the employees you have to deal with, etc., it's just quite a hassle.

I'll agree with Suits that it could be a chill thing to do when you're older, in a place with some law and order, and not really to make money, but more to have something to do. Under those circumstances, it could be cool, like a very small scale place.

If you want to do brick and mortar, think about real estate, you make the initial investment, then you collect one check a month (and send people to make repairs every so often), that's one transaction per month, instead of 10,000 transactions or whatnot. It's just a much less harried business, you'll have less grey hairs in the end.

That said, if you're really good at what you do, like the OP says he is, and you love what you do, like it seems like the OP does, then yeah, I see the motivation behind continuing down that route.

[FFL]

(07-10-2017 04:40 PM)Spaniard88 Wrote:  

Also, guys, let's touch upon the elephant in the room.

Brick and Mortar? Really? With so many opportunities to build online businesses that both scale and have low start up costs, why keep hammering away at Brick and Mortar?

My best friend's family owns many restaurants/bars, and one thing they are focusing on now, after a lifetime of creating wealth in that business, is to transition their capital from restaurants to real estate, both consumer and commercial. The restaurant business "es muy matado." Translation, "It's very grueling." And that's if you're successful. If you go the franchise model (creating your own brand and franchising it out), that's another story, but that's only a tiny percentage of folks that open bars/restaurants.

I do get the social benefits, though, like OP mentioned, but to me it just seems trivial compared to the paperwork involved, the capital required, the laws that have to be abided by, the inspections you have to prepare for, the employees you have to deal with, etc., it's just quite a hassle.

I'll agree with Suits that it could be a chill thing to do when you're older, in a place with some law and order, and not really to make money, but more to have something to do. Under those circumstances, it could be cool, like a very small scale place.

If you want to do brick and mortar, think about real estate, you make the initial investment, then you collect one check a month, that's one transaction per month, instead of 10,000 transactions or whatnot. It's just a much less harried business, you'll have less grey hairs in the end.

That said, if you're really good at what you do, like the OP says he is, and you love what you do, like it seems like the OP does, then yeah, I see the motivation behind continuing down that route.

Good post, I'll agree the food and beverage business is for the birds unless you like to think in fractions vs whole numbers. I will say the barrier to entry is much lower than people can imagine and even in a online business you have overhead.

Also it's actually not as hard of a business as people make it out to be, with any business you have laws, regulations, and if you're doing well employees, contractors, cpa's, lawyers ect... that is not exclusive to brick and mortar businesses.

I'm going to be pretty straight up and say I did not start this thread to request info on business models, what being in a certain business is like or requires ect...

I'm going to go ahead and give up as I was just looking to see if anyone had any info on expats doing the American themed idea in Ukraine and how it looked to them from the outside looking in.

That was all I was looking for: appreciate the insight

[DigitalNomad]

(07-08-2017 05:32 PM)FFL Wrote:  

Hey, all I was wondering if anyone had any experience with Americans that have started venues in Ukraine. I speak Russian fluently and just signed up for a 50 week course in Ukrainian starting October in Kiev.

I've owned two bars in South FL both of which I recently sold to a investment group.

I'm 32 y/o and now looking to do something adventurous. I've been googling a lot but seem to just find unseasoned business people talking about the stresses of starting in Ukraine as they were not previous business owners in the West, I could not imagine starting a business in a foreign country without at least some past experience in another where their language skills don't fit.

I also am tired of the heat and have no interest in living in the states anymore. I personally have never been a fan of Poland although I know it's a better spot economically.

To be very honest I'm really just looking to start something that will just supplement my living expenses there and also create socialization channels which is pretty much why I started my bars in South FL to begin with. I just got lucky down the line.

More fun to socialize in a place you own and have food and drinks at cost, at least in my opinion.

All the best if you decide to go forward, but a few things... the American themed bar market in Kiev already contains Coyote Ugly, which is about as American as it gets and has a staff size and venue size most likely exceeding anything a single entrepreneur could ever achieve.

Also, Russian is all you really need in Kiev, everyone there speaks Russian, not Ukrainian.

Without a local contacts, getting permits is going to be going through the Ukrainian business strings, i.e. corruption. Most likely you'll be paying people off every step of the way.

All that said, the business sense in Kiev is terrible. The marketing, signage, business sense, etc is absolutely pathetic compared to American standards. A business consultant there could make a killing if it wasn't such an economical poor country. I think the right concept, with the right connections would have the chance to succeed, but is it really the best investment of funds with all the opportunities online or in less corrupt countries, probably. not.

[This Is Trouble]

(07-10-2017 03:09 AM)FFL Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 01:10 AM)This Is Trouble Wrote:  

"Prices were always bottom of the barrel..."

Exactly, and as some other people pointed out, that bottom-of-the-barrel point in Ukraine is...well, really really bottom. That seems like a tough game to play, trying to skate a razor thin profit margin on vodka shots if you get what I mean.

Frankly, there is no decent Mexican in Kiev. One restaurant but from what my girl told me it shut down. There might be a great market for basic quesadillas, tacos and nachos that you could tack on with guac/burgers/fries and could set you apart from the other joints. I've got a post on some of my favorite restaurants in Kiev (https://ukraineliving.com/12-best-restau...in-kiev/), might be helpful to poke around their TripAdvisor page and see what's working. All those places were always all jammed full.

From what I saw there my prices in Miami are close to bottom of the barrel in Ukraine and I was in super high rent area's, also cheap prices does not mean bad quality, if done right it's just keeping things simplistic versus complicated and making it easy for people to choose. On another note maybe the fact I'm American could help as I'm doing American food, kinda like how it works in America, authentic usually sells better everywhere. Also I don't see that having been able to do $1.50 shots and $3 dollar cocktails $2 domestic $3 import and two items, hotdog and fries or burger and fries $3.50 for either combo served until close and turn a profit in a high rent area like Miami where my cost, rent, labor, federal taxes is much higher than Ukraine how I'd fail to turn a profit offering what are seemingly normal prices in Ukraine. I might be completely wrong though. Also those prices I was offering in Miami South Beach/Downtown I was getting 35% - 25% margins on food alone and 50% - 40% margins on drinks on average.

I don't know a thing about Taco's if I could convince one of my Mexican friends to join in a venture in Ukraine I'd do Tacos in a heartbeat. Kinda like fish Taco's in Miami, people use to tell me why am I not doing that as they sell so well? They actually don't because good places lose mountains of money on their loss in fish due to being unable to accurately forecast daily sales. I would say there are 50 places in a one mile radius you can go get a Fish Taco same with Burgers. I know how to make good burgers and hotdogs, that's about it. Also Beef keeps longer than Chicken which is the reason I never offered a chicken sandwich which is another item you need for Tacos. In which I'll play my own devils advocate and say land is cheap outside of Kiev maybe I could raise my own chickens, I would have done a chicken sandwich if I had that option in Miami close to my businesses.

If you want a good chain representation of the business model I use see In and Out Burger or White Castle but with alcohol sales. Small menu, cheap, hell I was cheaper than McDonalds and still rolling in a decent profit.

Your point is taken but I'd be wary of creating a menu of more than a couple of items, Tacos require lots of ingredients (veggies and fresh herbs) and many variations i.e. more perishable items like in fact tons of items that have a shelf life of only a couple days to still taste fresh which means more loss requiring you to have to not only deal in volume but take on a lot of losses if you fail to meet the volume.

My original post was not really asking to help me build out a menu although I appreciate your insight. I'm more looking for better info on starting a business in Ukraine and if there are people on the forum that know of other expats doing it there and doing well.

Totally understood, admittedly I am doing a bit of thinking out loud here because I've thought since last year, "Opening a taco shop in Kiev would be a great idea!"

I'll never do it but it's been fun to think about it. I'll keep following the thread. Good luck!

[ProGambler]

Don't do it. Mafia.

[Suits]

(07-10-2017 04:40 PM)Spaniard88 Wrote:  

Also, guys, let's touch upon the elephant in the room.

Brick and Mortar? Really? With so many opportunities to build online businesses that both scale and have low start up costs, why keep hammering away at Brick and Mortar?

Yes, why compete with a 20km radius when you can go up against the entire world online.

[Australia Sucks]

FFL I have seen many times before on Rooshv when people start a thread asking very specific questions or asking people for specific/niche advice you get very few actual answers to the specific questions you asked and the thread inevitably gets derailed into irrelevancy. Rooshv is a good forum for general information/discussion, travel datasheets, weightlifting datasheets, etc but like most internet forums its not a great place to get meaningful answers to very specialized questions or get personalized/tailored advice.

[This Is Trouble]

(07-11-2017 09:24 AM)Australia Sucks Wrote:  

FFL I have seen many times before on Rooshv when people start a thread asking very specific questions or asking people for specific/niche advice you get very few actual answers to the specific questions you asked and the thread inevitably gets derailed into irrelevancy. Rooshv is a good forum for general information/discussion, travel datasheets, weightlifting datasheets, etc but like most internet forums its not a great place to get meaningful answers to very specialized questions or get personalized/tailored advice.

So...exactly what you just did here.

[Australia Sucks]

Thisistrouble yes I agree that my comment is somewhat hypocritical but importantly I made the point well after the O.P. already gave up on the thread, he said "I'm going to go ahead and give up". On purpose I refrained from posting this comment before he said that. I was just commiserating with him in frustration.

And I have never been to Ukraine, so as much as I would like to, I do not currently have the ability to add value to the discussion, if I could have done it believe me I would have.

By the way I enjoyed reading your Ukraine living blog, keep up the good work!

p.s. I know you are in Czech Republic right now but I am sure you will be back in Ukraine one day, as all the forum guys that go there seem to make a habit of returning!