[OSL]

I know various guys who have bought condos in the following cities:

-Tokyo
-Seoul
-Shanghai
-Beijing
-Tallinn (Estonia)
-Helsinki
-Phuket (house, not condo)
-Bangkok
-Chiang Mai (in negotiations)

Is anyone out there planning on buying real estate overseas as an investment, as a residency, or both?

[Vacancier Permanent]

I am very seriously considering buying my own crib in South East Asia, maybe in BKK or somewhere on the beach in Thailand. This will be one of the main themes of my next journey in Asia as I plan on making SEA my permanent base and having my own place. I'll be touring the area to see where would be the best deals and the best overal quality. But so far, it looks like BKK is the place. I do admit that having my own crib in Tokyo would be the sickest of all, but for that, a shitload of money would be required as in Tokyo, the biggest luxury is space. Last I was in BKK, I saw condos on sale in downtown BKK from about 1.3M bahts to about 2MB ($40K-60K$). So I'm sure for 50-60K$, a very nice condo can be had, maybe even fully furnished. When I was in Jomtien and in Krabi, saw a lot of ads for new and current projects selling condos starting from 1M bahts (30K$). Needless to say prices are very tempting, specially for someone living the location independent lifestyle.

For investment, Brasil is the top place for all the obvious reasons that have been mentioned here by myself and others ad nauseum. Despite prices climbing consistently, there are still some good deals to be had. A few years ago, a friend of mine bought a penthouse apartment in the heart of downtown Curitiba for about $35k. In the North East of Brasil, around Fortaleza and Jaoa Pessoa, it's booming and it's a great place to invest. The best deals IMO are and will be for a long time in the 2nd tier cities like Belo Horizonte, Goiania, Cuaiaba. If you venture further inside the interiors of say Minas or SP state, you'd get even better deals. These are generally relatively safe, developped cities, specially BH, Goaiania, Cuaiaba. Between 2001 and 2005, after the collapse of the Argentine Pesoa and their economy, Argentina and specially Buenos Aires was a goldmine for dirt cheap apartments. I'm still kicking myself for being a chicken at the time and not buying anything at the time. You could buy a beautiful apart in Recoleta or Palermo for about 20-30K. Now, you'd be lucky to get the same for under 300-500k.

YMG,
Where are you thinking of buying your crib?

[Saladin]

Thanks for the info VP.
50K-60K does not sound like such a decent apartment in Bangkok.
Even if prices rise over the next few years 100K will be a steal for an apartment.
Btw, are you referring to a Bachelors apartment or something of decent size(like a 1 or 2 BR).

Buying cribs overseas seems to be a good move because if you play it right some places will develop rapidly and you'll get a huge return on your investment. However, I'd probably only do it money in the bank and not borrow at all because I'm a cautious person in general.

A much better investment imo than a crib in North America. We all know how many people got screwed by the housing bubble in the US. Cities in the third world often have rapid growth rates that justify rapidly increasing land and property prices.

[worldwidetraveler]

I would be pretty hesitant about buying in a place I didn't have residency. What if you purchase in Thailand and they start getting strict on boarder runs? I believe a lot of British ran into this same thing in Goa, India. It looks like a huge cluster fuck over there and a lot of British were planning on selling their properties at a possible loss.

Investment wise, the US is a great place right now when it comes to real estate.

[Vacancier Permanent]

Tkid,
You'd be surprised that with a little research and time spent on the grounds, the type of deals you'd come accross, specially in BKK. I'm thinking of selling my crib in Toronto in a few years and instead, take the money and buy 2-3 condos in SEA and in Brasil or even in the Philippines in a nice area for next to nothing (relatively speaking). A 1 bdrm would be enough for me and to entertain from time to time a guest (like a family/relative visiting). NA is overrated and over-priced big time in every aspect. Asia and South America is where the adventurous, ambitious, freedom loving guy should be looking at to invest their time and resources.

[Carne]

Vacancier Would you buy in Rio or SP right now?

[Vacancier Permanent]

Yes, indeed a very fair concern. Overseas investing in RE always carries some degree of risk. There are student visas (valid for a year) that one can obtain indefinitely in Thailand provided you're "registered" in a Thai language school. While in BKK, I saw tons of ads/signs for law firms/firms getting you that student visa for about 10k Baths (+ or - 300$). I wish I had the time last time I was there to contact one of those firms and get the run down on how that works but that's a definite option. Perhaps those currently in BKK could find out more on that by actually meeting with one such firm (they offer free consulatation). YMG, if you're still on the ground, would be very informative if you did that.

However, one thing that never seizes to puzzle me is why is the Thai government not making things easier for people wanting to establish semi or permanent residency in Thailand. They are sitting on an absolute goldmine if they were to make their visa laws more lax as in say the Philippines. A lot of people would make Thailand their semi to permanent residence/base were it not for the restrictive visa laws with the boring visa runs.

(08-29-2011 06:43 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

I would be pretty hesitant about buying in a place I didn't have residency. What if you purchase in Thailand and they start getting strict on boarder runs? I believe a lot of British ran into this same thing in Goa, India. It looks like a huge cluster fuck over there and a lot of British were planning on selling their properties at a possible loss.

Investment wise, the US is a great place right now when it comes to real estate.

[Vacancier Permanent]

None of these two. I'd be looking at Belo Horizonte, Fortaleza, Joao Pessoa. If I had a million Euros (not $ but Euros) then I'd look at Rio and SP. Anything less, I wouldn't bother in Rio/Sp as you wouldn't be able to find anything decent in a nice area. Guys, Rio/SP prices are on par with NYC and London. Rio and Brasil are unfortunately not the cheap tropical paradise it was back 5-10 years ago. Those that bought in Rio around 2000-2004, made a killing. I wish I had the money back then to buy property in Brasil.

(08-29-2011 06:47 PM)Carne Wrote:  

Vacancier Would you buy in Rio or SP right now?

[Hooligan Harry]

(08-29-2011 08:05 AM)youngmobileglobal Wrote:  

I know various guys who have bought condos in the following cities:

-Tokyo
-Seoul
-Shanghai
-Beijing
-Tallinn (Estonia)
-Helsinki
-Phuket (house, not condo)
-Bangkok
-Chiang Mai (in negotiations)

Is anyone out there planning on buying real estate overseas as an investment, as a residency, or both?

Yeah I am actually. Australian property is very overpriced, but I love it as an asset overall. I own my place, so I can raise security off the back of that now. The strong Aussie dollar looks like it may stay for a while, so I am looking into buying once a few things drop for me. I have put off buying with all the crap since 2008, but I reckon by next year Ill be ready to pull the trigger if Europe does not implode.

I have two types of property I am looking at, that being holiday homes, rentals. Commercial property is something I am very keen on, that just has to wait a while. None of this includes residence

Brazil - Holiday


There is a massive shortage of housing in the main cities, although the strong Real is hurting. Inflation is kicking in there too, but the economy is strong and growing. The biggest issue at the moment are the laws regarding foreign ownership of land, but also limited local bank finance. At the moment, local Brazilian banks cannot provide local mortgages to foreigners and the mortage market as a whole is very immature. A lot of legislative changes coming in 2013 though which are game changers though and thats pretty much what I am waiting for.

I am looking at Buzios and the immediate surrounding areas in particular, and will offer it as a holiday rental. I fell in love with the place and have been there enough to know its where I would like to own now. Its going to be very seasonal, but if I can cover 50% of the loan in holiday rentals the tax write off at their interest rates actually make it quite cheap to own, so I have done the sums

Its a legal nightmare and collecting rent from a tenant would be a major issue, hence why I have avoided Rio and SP, which would be better investments if I could manage them better. I think though that working through travel agencies would be a different story.

Germany - Frankfurt and Hamburg - Rentals.


Germany is going to be the most stable economy in the EU and there are few limitations with ownership. Its also a rental culture where ownership is very low and many people prefer to rent. Capital appreciation is not extreme, it normally tracks a tick over inflation. But the big thing here is ability to buy cash flow positive property against asset finance with your long rental leases covering the cost of the property over 15-20 years in most cases.

Croatia - Hvar - Holiday

Purely as a holiday destination. Croatia is on the up, but I think its one of the best beach destinations in the world. Weather is good, food is good, bitches are hot and the property is dirt cheap. You can buy 2 bedroom condos for as little as 40k Euro now.

The USA - Florida - Rentals


I have not even been to the USA yet, but have intentions of heading out in June 2012. Property is a steal right now, and you can buy cash flow positive properties for next to nothing. A lot of people who lost homes in foreclosures need a place to stay, so rental returns are very good and in many cases double digit. I think capital values are fucked for the next 10 years, but the US is going to come right eventually and so will the property market. The big thing here is low interest rates and bank finance. With large deposits and security against assets that dont include the property itself, they will throw money at you.

Places I have looked at in depth and wont consider for a while

Argentina - San Carlos de Bariloche in particular as a holiday destination. Argentina though is such a loose cannon and this is a LONG trip for me.

Bulgaria - Will be part of the EU soon enough and when that happens I think they will do well. They are a tax haven too, which has its attractions

Estonia - Tallinn in particular. Prices are simply too high to justify and the returns are very average. This is a problem right across Eastern Europe, with Russia being the worst now.

Ireland - Much the same situation as the USA, although I am less confident about their economy over the next 10 years

[OSL]

Nice rundown, Hooligan Harry. Are you from the UK?

You've piqued my interest in Croatia now.

[Hooligan Harry]

No, from Australia.

Croatia for me is a bit of a sleeping gem. Property, and land in particular is very cheap. Its also a destination that is growing in popularity with tourists from Eastern Europe, but also western countries too. Its a cheapish holiday with good weather, nice beaches, lots to see and do, and most importantly, plenty to stick my dick in.

[Pepini]

(08-30-2011 03:55 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

No, from Australia.

Croatia for me is a bit of a sleeping gem. Property, and land in particular is very cheap. Its also a destination that is growing in popularity with tourists from Eastern Europe, but also western countries too. Its a cheapish holiday with good weather, nice beaches, lots to see and do, and most importantly, plenty to stick my dick in.

Brazil is on my priority list for expanding my law office. January I will register myself in São Paulo bar association. Hopefully I will move to Brazil in 5-10 years.

I have some contacts related to Real estate in Croatia. If you need some info let me know. Croatia will soon enter EU. The prices will skyrocket.

[K-man]

(08-30-2011 07:46 AM)Pepini Wrote:  

Croatia will soon enter EU. The prices will skyrocket.

That's what they told British people about Bulgaria in 2005-2006, and a lot of them bought apartments.
And indeed, Bulgaria entered the EU in 2007... but prices are still the same as back in 2006 (after a brief peak).

I strongly advise against purchases in a strictly vacation destinations. I have a beach house myself, and I can hardly use it enough to justify the cost. Imagine what it's like if you live in a different country. Even if you are able to visit at times, calculate what a hotel would cost you vs. maintaining a property. Much cheaper, so only worth it if you actually live in the place.

So if you do buy, buy in a place which is year-round, so you can rent it out long-term. If it's just a holiday destination, you can't count on high occupancy. Your property manager will screw you and let people in and keep the money and tell you it was vacant the whole time.

[Hooligan Harry]

(08-30-2011 08:18 AM)K-man Wrote:  

(08-30-2011 07:46 AM)Pepini Wrote:  

Croatia will soon enter EU. The prices will skyrocket.

That's what they told British people about Bulgaria in 2005-2006, and a lot of them bought apartments.
And indeed, Bulgaria entered the EU in 2007... but prices are still the same as back in 2006 (after a brief peak).

I strongly advise against purchases in a strictly vacation destinations. I have a beach house myself, and I can hardly use it enough to justify the cost. Imagine what it's like if you live in a different country. Even if you are able to visit at times, calculate what a hotel would cost you vs. maintaining a property. Much cheaper, so only worth it if you actually live in the place.

So if you do buy, buy in a place which is year-round, so you can rent it out long-term. If it's just a holiday destination, you can't count on high occupancy. Your property manager will screw you and let people in and keep the money and tell you it was vacant the whole time.

Granted they are the same, but property prices have gone backwards all over the world. Europes economy is in the stinker at the moment. Eventually, growth will return and when local economies improve so will real estate prices.

Agreed the returns on a residential property are more stable than a holiday home, but an international holiday home serves a lot of purposes over and above personal use. Its mostly for tax.

Its hard to justify foreign expenses and foreign bank accounts when you have no assets in that country. Your entire holiday becomes a tax write off though when you own assets in that country.

My criteria for a holiday home are as follows

- Im after the land, not the building. Im buying into the town/area. The areas I am interested in I believe have the potential to become the upmarket, overpriced "Aspens" of their respective countries.
- Its a place I like to go on holiday and I can write a substantial portion of those "costs" off
- They are assets held abroad through family trusts. Limited access for ex wives, banks, etc. That includes the bank accounts used to cover the costs of holding those assets.
- Im building up collateral in a country where I am confident the economy will grow long term. It makes securing finance in those countries far easier when I have local assets to secure it against

@Pepini

Would def be interested in Croatia, but also English speaking legal advice in Brazil. Drop me a PM when you have a chance and let me know what you are up to. With Brazil the biggest concern for me is that its a legal nightmare and scams seem to be quite common.

[johnw28]

Harry with investing in the US you may find it is better to hold a mortgage on the property rather than renting. That is if you can buy the property outright. I feel it is better as it reduces monthly expenses for upkeep and or finding a property management company. I will be doing this in Maine in the coming 2 years. I looked at renting out properties but it is easier to hold a mortgage IMO. For example I can buy a foreclosure for 25000 and fix it up and sell it for 70,000. A 30 year note at 6.5% is $442.45 a month or 5.5% for 20 is 480 a month. You get a higher interest rates than a bank because often times the banks won't finance an individual. Theses numbers are just an example.

[Pilgrim37]

(08-30-2011 03:55 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

No, from Australia.

Croatia for me is a bit of a sleeping gem. Property, and land in particular is very cheap. Its also a destination that is growing in popularity with tourists from Eastern Europe, but also western countries too. Its a cheapish holiday with good weather, nice beaches, lots to see and do, and most importantly, plenty to stick my dick in.

"plenty to stick my dick in."

Quite!
Nice to know someone's got their priorities right when it comes to investment opportunities!

[worldwidetraveler]

(09-02-2011 03:31 PM)johnw28 Wrote:  

Harry with investing in the US you may find it is better to hold a mortgage on the property rather than renting. That is if you can buy the property outright. I feel it is better as it reduces monthly expenses for upkeep and or finding a property management company. I will be doing this in Maine in the coming 2 years. I looked at renting out properties but it is easier to hold a mortgage IMO. For example I can buy a foreclosure for 25000 and fix it up and sell it for 70,000. A 30 year note at 6.5% is $442.45 a month or 5.5% for 20 is 480 a month. You get a higher interest rates than a bank because often times the banks won't finance an individual. Theses numbers are just an example.

You don't need to purchase outright if you want to owner finance it.

You can do a wrap around mortgage, take back a second, or a landcontract.

You become the bank.

The cool thing about that stuff is the owner is responsible for the taxes(unless you add taxes into the monthly payment), insurance(same as taxes), repairs and general upkeep of the house.

Bad news is you are the lender and will need to foreclose (some states allow quick eviction on landcontracts) on the house in order to get it back. You make money on the interest rate spread and a down payment.

I think Florida foreclosures take a long time so that may not be a good thing.