[The_e_man]

Since "discovering" the community circa 2011, I can say that I can obtain same night lays (SNLs) with girls with ease. Definitely not regularly taking home bombshells, but mostly 7's and 8's with the occasional bombshells here and there when fortune decides to smile upon me that night. A few of you might remember me from my recent 100-notch thread where I "celebrated" that milestone. I want to give the background that I'm "decently good" at this pickup stuff before I ask my question so it can be framed somewhat appropriately for me and my skill level.

Now here is my (somewhat embarrassing) issue: I can't make these girls stick around.
Not only can I not make them stick around and incorporate them into the harem that I am trying to build, it goes as far as I can sometimes be completely ghosted. Or left in the spot where I talk to them on snapchat and they expend the bare minimum amount of energy to reply back. Any attempt I made to see them again results in a super lame excuse or the "yeah maybe haha" purgatory. This is the shit I dealt with when getting weak daygame numbers when I was 17 years old and new to all this stuff. I have no idea why I'm getting this with girls I picked up from the club and banged.
I am whining a little bit and there are girls that do stick around and get clingy and whatnot, but they are definitely the exception, not the norm. I'm probably around 120+ in notch count and I'm very quickly getting diminishing returns in my pleasure from these. I really want the hot ones (8's and 9's) to stick around and actually have like a mini-fling or mini-relationship with me.
Also, purely for the sake of discussion, can we assume I am having "good sex" with them? Just to pre-emptively rule out the replies that might say "you just gotta fuck them right bro!! leave their pussy sore and they'll be begging you for more!!" I fully realize and appreciate the power of fucking a girl properly and knocking the doors off her pussy, but I think my issue may lie a little deeper beyond that.

So can any of your veterans chime in on this? Is this a stage that you have been through yourself? High notch count and easy pulls with very little to no retention? Is this a phase through the journey that I'm going through and must overcome? Or is this simply a sign that I'm making some huge mistakes somewhere and I'm going down the wrong path?

Cheers

[tremont]

Quoting my own post from the other thread since its relevant here:

(03-06-2017 06:20 PM)tremont Wrote:  

(03-04-2017 12:16 AM)The_e_man Wrote:  

Then how come I can fuck girls very easily (SNL from nightclub), but I can hardly ever keep them around for a second bang, let alone LTR?
Shouldn't I be the "up" person? Am I missing something? Am I doing something wrong?

I think it has to do with you.

Maybe you are able to supercharge her emotions enough to get the bang, but after the fantasy is over the reality doesn't match? Maybe somehow your style is only attractive to fast sluts who only want fun and attention but quality girls see through you? Maybe you aren't able to open yourself emotionally during that SNL?

Pay attention to the situation and the energy. When you're going through the SNL, is it warm, close, honest, and leading to intimacy, or some kind of cold opportunistic "lets fuck" agreement? How much is genuine vs fake? What quality of chicks are you taking home?

Try to ascertain why is she coming home with you? Is it because you're this really interesting high value man she wants to know more about? Or is it just because shes horny, drunk, and your game was good enough to wet the pussy? Girls use men for sex the same way we do to them.

Somehow I have the opposite problem. I always end up in an LTR. I'm very physical, emotionally open (I put my vulnerabilities on display and even exaggerate them with self-depreciating humor), and tend to fall in love easily when I meet a high quality woman. Somehow I don't do as well with trashy sluts.

Remember, you can tell a lot about a man by the kind of girl he is with. If you're having problems then you need to work on yourself. I think only deep self awareness, honesty about your current weaknesses, willingness to put your ego aside be objective and improve, along with social situational awareness can fix these kinds of problems.

In short, maybe you are a victim of your own success. Obviously you must have worked very hard to be successful at banging club sluts, but that style of game may not work so well hooking up with quality girls for longer term.

Maybe start practicing a different approach like day game? Something more low energy that requires a different skill set. Something that requires you to be more warm and genuine.

Also what do you have going on in your life besides banging sluts and partying? Is your lifestyle and success interesting and high value? Are driven, motivated, ambitious, and inspiring in what you set out to do and your goals in life? Does your manner and energy command respect and admiration of others? Have you achieved any great things in your life? These are the kinds of things a woman wants in a man for long term. The fun but otherwise useless playboy is only good for a quick thrill, just like the slutty girl is to us.

I don't have the notch count you do, or that kind of level of game in the night life scene so I probably cannot help you too much. I'm really just throwing stuff out there blindly, maybe it applies to you maybe it doesn't.

Best would be someone at your level who did have this issue and overcame it. I've seen this problem mentioned several times on the forum.

(03-06-2017 07:05 PM)The_e_man Wrote:  

Also, purely for the sake of discussion, can we assume I am having "good sex" with them?

I know you said not to, but it bares mentioning because it is really that important. A girl will want more from guy who fucks her really good. If you're not smashing the pussy to satisfaction, it will be an uphill battle to keep her around and keep her faithful.

[The_e_man]

Thanks for the thoughtful response, tremont, as your initial reply in the thread is what prompted me to make this one.
I certainly think you are correct. It's gotten to the point that although nightgame is "easy" for me, I've gotten terrified of daygaming. It feels so "weird" and "creepy" and "uncool" now since I've been getting so much traction in the nightgame scene. I know this is an unhealthy mindset. I remember telling myself "of the cool guys you know that have a hot girlfriend or fuck a lot of hotties regularly - how many of them would ever daygame? zero." So it's gotten to the point where I deep down feel like daygaming is something that PUA weirdos do and a high value alpha man will naturally already have an abundance of woman to the point where he doesn't have to panhandle to strangers in a busy town square.
The weird thing is, I can tell that these thoughts are mostly just defence mechanisms because I am truly scared of the daytime cold approach. When first starting out, I used to daygame all the time with other wings. But I had nothing to lose back then and didn't build up this ego that I now have. I think I need to get back down to "ground zero" and become that "creepy loser" that daygames once again.

[tremont]

(03-06-2017 07:51 PM)The_e_man Wrote:  

I remember telling myself "of the cool guys you know that have a hot girlfriend or fuck a lot of hotties regularly - how many of them would ever daygame? zero."

Seriously dude, what the fuck. This is total nonsense.

(03-06-2017 07:51 PM)The_e_man Wrote:  

So it's gotten to the point where I deep down feel like daygaming is something that PUA weirdos do and a high value alpha man will naturally already have an abundance of woman to the point where he doesn't have to panhandle to strangers in a busy town square.
The weird thing is, I can tell that these thoughts are mostly just defence mechanisms because I am truly scared of the daytime cold approach. When first starting out, I used to daygame all the time with other wings. But I had nothing to lose back then and didn't build up this ego that I now have. I think I need to get back down to "ground zero" and become that "creepy loser" that daygames once again.

When the hell was daygame a creepy loser activity? I don't understand this at all. Just by having that mentality you are setting yourself up to fail. Talking to a cute girl that you like outside doesn't put you in the same class as a smelly homeless guy begging for quarters.

Daygame also doesn't mean you have to go outside only for the purpose approaching girls. Go out and do things you like. Go to a park, a concert, a mall, etc.. because you actually want or need to go there. When you happen to see a girl you like at that same place, go talk to her.

Nightgame has become your crutch and is holding you back. Time to face your demons and try something new.

[The_e_man]

I wish I could argue with you but I know you're right on this one.
I think a big part of this mentality stems from what I've been seeing over the years.
My city is small (about 800k people) and I have not yet met a very successful pickup artist style guy that gets anywhere close to the results that my good look natural friends get. I don't even fully keep up with them.
So seeing these good looking naturals operate and seeing how women react to them and claw over them makes me super jaded about pickup and then I draw these crazy conclusions in my head that I deep down know are bullshit. Just because Chad Thundercock doesn't ever daygame doesn't mean daygaming is for losers. Come to think of it, the cool good looking Chad Thundercocks generally don't cold approach at night clubs either, they just show up with hot girls they already know or they have girls come up and drunkenly approach them. A luxury I unfortunately don't have so I have to be "creepy" and cold approach.

[CleanSlate]

Regarding daygame and your limiting beliefs about it, you need to talk to Vinny. Trust me on this one.

[The_e_man]

Cleanslate, what do you mean brother.

[tremont]

Something is only creepy or weird if you believe it to be so. If you think its creepy to approach a girl in the mall, then your approach will come off as creepy. If you think its perfectly normal and even healthy, then guess what..

Try to divorce yourself from labels like "pickup style guy" and "natural good looking guy". It's all bullshit. You're creating these imaginary categories of people and then ranking yourself somewhere in the middle. Automatically that constructs your entire mental frame on a foundation of "not good enough".

There's also the enormous mental gap between "I'm not good enough" vs "I'm not yet good enough at this particular skill". Learn the difference and eradicate your brain's ability to utter the first one.

In essence, you have to hack your own brain to get over these stupid psychological hurdles. If your frame is strong, then what you believe becomes reality.

[The_e_man]

Tremont, you are certainly on to something here. I feel like I am stuck in limbo between being the "creepy weird PUA" and trying to be the "cool laidback popular natural"
I need to get over the hurdle in my head that these two things are mutually exclusive to each other. I think the biggest issue is my experience with both "types" of people (in real life), I've only come across one or the other it seems.

[General Stalin]

In your 100-notch thread you outlined your game mechanics that you pretty much go direct and are not shy at being sexual and spitting graphic lines to girls. You also admit that you have gotten shut out a lot which is normal generally, but given you also say you have somewhat above average good looks, my diagnosis is that you do not build enough comfort with women to want them coming back to you.

You likely give off a player vibe and girls you bed generally don't want to "make a thing" of it. Going for quick sex with girls you meet at the club is generally the antithesis of building a relationship of any kind. You need to build up more comfort and attraction to get them interested in seeing you again instead of being "Mr. Nightclub McFuckboi" ya know?

[Jagnum]

(03-06-2017 07:05 PM)The_e_man Wrote:  

Since "discovering" the community circa 2011, I can say that I can obtain same night lays (SNLs) with girls with ease. Definitely not regularly taking home bombshells, but mostly 7's and 8's with the occasional bombshells here and there when fortune decides to smile upon me that night. A few of you might remember me from my recent 100-notch thread where I "celebrated" that milestone. I want to give the background that I'm "decently good" at this pickup stuff before I ask my question so it can be framed somewhat appropriately for me and my skill level.

Now here is my (somewhat embarrassing) issue: I can't make these girls stick around.
Not only can I not make them stick around and incorporate them into the harem that I am trying to build, it goes as far as I can sometimes be completely ghosted. Or left in the spot where I talk to them on snapchat and they expend the bare minimum amount of energy to reply back. Any attempt I made to see them again results in a super lame excuse or the "yeah maybe haha" purgatory. This is the shit I dealt with when getting weak daygame numbers when I was 17 years old and new to all this stuff. I have no idea why I'm getting this with girls I picked up from the club and banged.
I am whining a little bit and there are girls that do stick around and get clingy and whatnot, but they are definitely the exception, not the norm. I'm probably around 120+ in notch count and I'm very quickly getting diminishing returns in my pleasure from these. I really want the hot ones (8's and 9's) to stick around and actually have like a mini-fling or mini-relationship with me.
Also, purely for the sake of discussion, can we assume I am having "good sex" with them? Just to pre-emptively rule out the replies that might say "you just gotta fuck them right bro!! leave their pussy sore and they'll be begging you for more!!" I fully realize and appreciate the power of fucking a girl properly and knocking the doors off her pussy, but I think my issue may lie a little deeper beyond that.

So can any of your veterans chime in on this? Is this a stage that you have been through yourself? High notch count and easy pulls with very little to no retention? Is this a phase through the journey that I'm going through and must overcome? Or is this simply a sign that I'm making some huge mistakes somewhere and I'm going down the wrong path?

Cheers

Two things I've found to be consistent:

1. Girls don't want to date their one night stands.
2. Girls don't want to date their first date lays.
   

Once she puts you into the "one-night stand", "first date lay" category, she'll never see you as material for a "mini-fling", "mini-relationship". Of course there are exceptions, you mention these in your post.

Why not use night game as an opportunity to collect numbers and take her out on a date the following week (just don't bang her on that date)? Sounds like you're becoming bored with the one-night stand.

My only mini-flings, mini-relationships have come from girls I've banged on the 2nd date or later. Would definitely require a re-alignment in your game.

Just a suggestion, hope that helps!

[General Stalin]

(03-08-2017 12:50 PM)Jagnum Wrote:  

Two things I've found to be consistent:

1. Girls don't want to date their one night stands.
2. Girls don't want to date their first date lays.
   

Once she puts you into the "one-night stand", "first date lay" category, she'll never see you as material for a "mini-fling", "mini-relationship". Of course there are exceptions, you mention these in your post.

I wouldn't say this to be true nowadays. Sex means a lot less to women than it did decades ago.

In the past a woman might feel less of herself for having given it up with a guy she just met, or choose to "wait" to give it up to a guy she really likes. Most women have been re-programmed by our culture now to covet sex less so now it's not much more than just shaking hands and "getting to know someone."

[Vill@in]

Yeah I'm going to agree with Stalin here...there is something in your game that isn't giving these girls comfort. You're either giving off some kind of vibe and/or saying something that negates any comfort they (may) have had with you initially.

And obviously if this is a consistent issue where the girls aren't sticking around or ghosting you then there is a problem. Without you secretly taping your pick up skills and posting it for others to dissect, you're unfortunately going to have to find out the problem on your own. OR you could bite the bullet and reach out to a few of your recent notches and ask them point blank why they aren't returning your calls (assuming they don't ignore those requests, heh).

On the positive side, you're doing something right as you have 100+ notches and that's success a lot of us would love to have. You'll just have to tweak your game so that you get the results you want now.

[The_e_man]

Thanks for the replies lads.
General Stalin, you are correct in that I (purposely even) give off the Mr. Nightclub Fuckboi vibe simple because it just works for me. Well, it works for getting me laid and getting girls seemingly super interested in me initially.

Without a doubt, I am doing something wrong when it comes to keeping them around. I wish I knew what. I have a lot of buddies that also give off the "fuckboi" vibe but they admittedly do a better job of keeping the girls around than I do.
Part of me wants to blame societal shifts and blame some of this to the fact that female mating strategies are changing. They no longer need men for economic survival / comfort and thus they can have much more sex for fun now. And also you can tell this is why western girls care more and more about looks these days. They are fucking like men do! A blowjob or fuck is as casual as a handshake for these sluts.
But I can't fully blame my problem on this. I'm definitely doing something wrong.

I suppose all I can do in the meanwhile is experiment and try different things out.

[General Stalin]

(03-08-2017 03:01 PM)The_e_man Wrote:  

General Stalin, you are correct in that I (purposely even) give off the Mr. Nightclub Fuckboi vibe simple because it just works for me. Well, it works for getting me laid and getting girls seemingly super interested in me initially.

...

I suppose all I can do in the meanwhile is experiment and try different things out.

That's exactly what I'm saying. You've already reached your 100+ notch milestone. It's time to evolve man. You now you can get new lays - you are going to have to change/advance your game a bit to get different results.

[MaceTyrell]

^I second General Stalin's advice.

Hell, you even have a better chance turning a SNL from Tinder than you do from nightgame. Only girl I know who met their fuckbuddy/boyfriend from night game is certifiably the craziest girl I know.

[Mufasa]

edit: this is what I've learned in turning girls into repeat bangs and what works for me, not necessarily some absolute proven truth

(03-08-2017 03:01 PM)The_e_man Wrote:  

I (purposely even) give off the Mr. Nightclub Fuckboi vibe simple because it just works for me.

They no longer need men for economic survival / comfort and thus they can have much more sex for fun now.

There it is. All of your problem right there.

Quote:

I (purposely even) give off the Mr. Nightclub Fuckboi vibe simple because it just works for me.

Just like the actual qualification for a girl as long term prospect begins after we have fucked them so does ours. What happens after the lay--this is where your beta tendencies have to come into play. The shit that she writes on her POF profile--that shit.
Are you feeding her, cuddling with her, nourishing her (paying or cooking food), opening doors for her, etc. Those are the things that make her want to see you again if the dick is good.

Quote:

They no longer need men for economic survival / comfort and thus they can have much more sex for fun now.

Consciously they don't. Subconsciously you could argue they need us more now than ever. A family, child rearing, and having a man take care of them emotionally is what completes women. Now they are working more and are constantly unhappy--imo we are needed now for a woman to be happy than ever in human history.

You've fucked them but after that is when you prove them that they are more than a piece of meat.

Girls don't like feeling like a used slut no matter what they say about being proud and shit and thats why she's ghosting you. When she thinks about you she thinks about what a slut she is and its uncomfortable. Girls avoid discomfort like its the plague. And unlike us their abundance mentality is actually an abundance reality--she will find another dude.

After you fuck them you must treat them like more than that, cook them breakfast, take them out for brunch, cuddle them, hug them, kiss them, open their doors, ogle them. Now when they think about you they remember that and that you fucked them silly.

Once you've gotten the lay you have won. If you want to see them again treat them like you want to "see" them again. Thats not beta at all when done from a position of strength and proper frame control. Hell you can even tell them "I want to see you again" and take her number down.
If you don't want to see them again then don't treat them like you want to see them again.

Good vibes.

[MaceTyrell]

^So I started reading the above and thinking "but that shit shows provider tendencies which slot you into boyfriend zone, and she will start thinking she has you around her finger."

But done from position of strength/frame control? As in...doing this for every girl you are trying to slot up to harem status so it's just a means to an end? Or...by not expecting the girl to vocally "appreciate" it - an issue of mine is thinking that women should appreciate the nice shit I do for them.

[General Stalin]

@MaceTyrell don't think of "nice guy" tactics as an all-or-nothing endeavor. You can be sweet, generous, loving, and caring without being a pussy whipped bitch. Paying for dinner, buying a drink or two, giving a compliment, sending a smiley in a text, picking up some flowers, cooking a dinner, cuddling, etc. Doing those sort of things doesn't make you "beta" so long as you don't do it 24/7 and you have some discretion about it.

A strong, masculine man with a "secret soft side" is like crack to women. That is their bread and butter. A woman who finds a man who is nothing but a man who shows sparing moments of gentle compassion and sensitivity is a woman who knows she has something special that she needs to hang on to.

[Mufasa]

(03-08-2017 04:59 PM)MaceTyrell Wrote:  

^So I started reading the above and thinking "but that shit shows provider tendencies which slot you into boyfriend zone, and she will start thinking she has you around her finger."

But done from position of strength/frame control? As in...doing this for every girl you are trying to slot up to harem status so it's just a means to an end?

No like I do these things because I want to, and I like doing them anyway--thats what frame control is. This is my world I do what I want, you will join me because I said so.
In my game I love everything about women. Even through they are actually fucking retarded I do seriously enjoy their company. And I love cuddling after I just owned a girl. I want to eat sometimes too. I believe in being a gentleman in the fundamental sense as well--thing is I point that shit out especially the low key chivalrous things that most people aren't aware of.

When I do things for a girl its not for the girl even if it is for the girl. At some point and I don't know why or the "player science" behind it but girls just know if you're being a supplicating bitch or not.

Its not me being a provider, its me doing shit that I would do anyway know what I mean. If she puts me in that provider/wrapped around her finger shit thats fine--I am not. Thing is I've fucked her so whatever box she puts me in is irrelevant imo. I fucked her and if she chooses to see me again I will fuck her again. When she asks "the question" I will keep my game tight and agree and amplify or give her the realness.

I don't know if this is important but I never break character ever. When Im doing these nice things I still busting their chops, making fun of them, calling them jerks, dicks, ass holes, creeps, stalkers, etc.

[MaceTyrell]

^Yes. Yes. Mufasa you're on fire today.

[tremont]

(03-08-2017 05:44 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  

A strong, masculine man with a "secret soft side" is like crack to women.

I can attest to this at least in my experience of ending up in LTR's. Its the cuddling, fucking, and generally being very close, intimate, and vulnerable which keeps the flame burning strong.

[XXL]

Girls come and go. If you wanna have an actual harem you need to accept that first and foremost.

Then you have to keep on adding new girls to the mix. Consistently. That is the only way to keep it alive. I think they call it cop and blow.

"Pimps have a term for this. "The name of the game is 'cop and blow." Thus sayeth the scrolls of the elderpimps. At any moment, you can cop a new girl, or a girl can blow out. And it might be your FAVORITE girl. Hell, it could be ALL OF YOUR GIRLS AT ONCE. The bare fact remains however: if you can't handle losing girls, damn son, you shouldn't even be in the game. In essence, cop and blow means losing girls with grace.".

[ksbms]

(03-09-2017 12:08 PM)XXL Wrote:  

Girls come and go. If you wanna have an actual harem you need to accept that first and foremost.

Then you have to keep on adding new girls to the mix. Consistently. That is the only way to keep it alive. I think they call it cop and blow.

"Pimps have a term for this. "The name of the game is 'cop and blow." Thus sayeth the scrolls of the elderpimps. At any moment, you can cop a new girl, or a girl can blow out. And it might be your FAVORITE girl. Hell, it could be ALL OF YOUR GIRLS AT ONCE. The bare fact remains however: if you can't handle losing girls, damn son, you shouldn't even be in the game. In essence, cop and blow means losing girls with grace.".

[General Stalin]

(03-09-2017 12:08 PM)XXL Wrote:  

Girls come and go. If you wanna have an actual harem you need to accept that first and foremost.

Then you have to keep on adding new girls to the mix. Consistently. That is the only way to keep it alive. I think they call it cop and blow.

"Pimps have a term for this. "The name of the game is 'cop and blow." Thus sayeth the scrolls of the elderpimps. At any moment, you can cop a new girl, or a girl can blow out. And it might be your FAVORITE girl. Hell, it could be ALL OF YOUR GIRLS AT ONCE. The bare fact remains however: if you can't handle losing girls, damn son, you shouldn't even be in the game. In essence, cop and blow means losing girls with grace.".

Great post but OP's issue is that he can't even keep girls around for a 2nd round to begin with.

Just need to work on your keep-game. Like I said, make a girl feel more comfortable and intrigued so she is open to the idea of wanted to spend more time with you and bang you more. Having good sex helps too but honestly I think that "fucking her right" is overrated. Plenty of girls leave the best sex of their life as a one night stand.