[Palo_alto]

Gents,

I wanted to share my story. Hope this helps some people going through doubt when it comes to LTR´s.

Background:

We met through HAPPN dating app. She was 4 years older than me. I am in my late 20´s. She is super good looking, into sports, career oriented, good job, she had money and was independent.

We had sex on the 3rd date, amazing. She was into traveling as well as I am, we where both financially very stable so we could do really cool stuff all the time (Renting yachts, caribbean vacations, high end hotels, you name it)

During the first 3 months of dating, I had sex with 2 other different girls. After that I ask her to be my girlfriend and felt in love with her. Hard! I stopped fucking girls. Although still flirt.

I had been gaming hard for about a year before her, I guess the loneliness took the best part of my (Emotional loneliness) and i took her as my LTR, ignoring all the red flags.

Red flags:

1. Addicted to social media (Posting selfies showing cleavage,etc...)
2. No father figure. Alcoholic, he left her life when she was 10
3. Mother has untreated depression, constantly taking pills
4. I met her through a dating app
5. My mom did not like her too much
6. She was not over her ex
7. I was her 4th boyfriend and 12th sex partner
8. Old boyfriends have all cheated on her
9. All her close friends are gay males
10. She liked to drink, at least 1 bottle of champagne when she went out
11. No belief system
12. She had 1 small tattoo and plastic surgery

How the fuck did I ended up falling in love with her?

She was super honest and open. Even though she told me things i did not wanted to hear. She would have her phone without a password, computer open at my house, she had nothing to hide. I have not seen this behavior in a while. She was a person you could trust.

She was willing to change! After she felt in love with me. She stopped posting selfies, she started contact again with her father, she started going into the psychologist to help her insecurities,etc...She did everything I wanted to. She became the perfect woman.

Sex was out of this world.

After a big party that we where hosting to one of his friends. She got drunk, she flirt with another guy in front of me. Told everybody the kinky stuff we where doing in bed, posted a selfie showing cleavage and after I just stand up and leave, she did not contact me after 4 days saying i was making a big deal of it.

I put all the memories in a box in my garage, bought tickets for a 10 day trip by myself, blocked her from whatsapp, Facebook,etc... met with her and broke this up.

Gents,

What I have learn?

a. People cannot change who they really are, they can fake it for a few months but the real person will come up when you least expected.

b. Don´t ignore the red flags.

Thanks for your support.
Gracias señores

[hv123]

(10-04-2016 08:46 AM)Palo_alto Wrote:  

into sports, career oriented, good job, she had money and was independent.

Are you listing these as positive characteristics that she had?

[AboveAverageJoe]

Everyone puts their best foot forward in the beginning stages of dating, its when the other shoe drops that you see trheir true selves. Thats usually when the crazy comes out.

[Easy_C]

Biggest thing I learned was to pay a close attention on how much effort they actually put into the relationship. The ones who are willing to sacrifice their own time and energy to see you or help you, even when it is difficult to make the arrangements works and there is no immediate benefit, should always be prioritized over the chicks that only want to see you when it works for them.

Quote:

into sports, career oriented, good job, she had money and was independent.

Except for "career oriented" (I prefer family oriented), those aren't bad qualities. Independent is a great thing if that's what it actually means and not "strong and independent". A woman who is actually independent and not "feminist independent" will be a low maintenance woman which is a MUST if you are in any kind of occupation that is remotely high flying or challenging.

Sports can be a good thing if it means she likes participating in sports with you or even if she has some local girl's team she participates in. Again no harm, great if the "sport" is something like Tennis or cycling that can be a shared activity. If you mean she likes watching sports then that is to me an indicator of masculine traits.

Money speaks for itself. If you actually are thinking about marrying a chick she should be able to manage it well enough that she has some instead of has spent a lot.

Good job? Irrelevant if you want a traditional LTR.

[Rhyme or Reason]

After every LTR I learn the same thing; I don't enjoy the extended company of any particular woman.

[Palo_alto]

(10-04-2016 09:24 AM)hv123 Wrote:  

(10-04-2016 08:46 AM)Palo_alto Wrote:  

into sports, career oriented, good job, she had money and was independent.

Are you listing these as positive characteristics that she had?

She was also very caring, great cook, always there for me when I was sick, etc....

She was a good woman but her personality that came from all this bad past experiences make her so insecure that it was driving me crazy. I got to the point that I stopped things that I enjoy doing because it could make trouble in the relationship, that´s just wrong.

By things I enjoy I mean playing in a band a having a few beers friday night instead of watching netflix with her or going on an expensive dinner.

Thanks for the feedback. It helps

[Sam Malone]

When I met my last LTR (my now ex-wife), the relationship was an extension of myself. It was a compliment to who I was.

Somewhere along those eleven years of marriage, I became an extension of the relationship. It, and only it, defined who I (then) became. I changed, a lot, based on what the ex's perception of me should be.

It took a while after the divorce to essentially find myself again. (Re)define who I was, and who I am now. A lot of soul searching, as well as finding this forum, has helped make Sam 2.0 what I am today.

What I've learned:

Take things at face value.

Change for yourself, not for anyone else.

Be whoever you are.

[UlteriorMotive]

Things I learnt from my second to last LTR (the one that ended up with me finding this Forum)

- Don't give second chances.

- Game in a LTR is not solely aimed at the girl in question, it includes all of her social circle and her family.

- Carrying on from the point above, don't date a girl who is well known in certain circles on social media / knows a lot of people. It makes the job harder unless you are experienced with Game.

- Once you notice something that makes you step back, it's time to leave.

- Gifts will lower your value in her eyes, experiences together increase it.

- Don't talk to her her like a friend, she will not share the same love for things that you do.

A lot of these points I had read before-hand from posters on here and other websites. It took for me to hit rock bottom before they really sunk in.

[Brother Abdul Majeed]

(10-04-2016 10:40 AM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

After every LTR I learn the same thing; I don't enjoy the extended company of any particular woman.

I'm relieved to hear that it's not just me who feels this way. This might sound awful but I find it's tedious being around a woman for too long.

[Latan]

Thing I learned from multplie LTR : be ready at any moment for it to end.
By her will or yours, be ready to be dumped or walk away, whatever your think is currently happening.

[WestIndianArchie]

(10-04-2016 09:38 AM)AboveAverageJoe Wrote:  

Everyone puts their best foot forward in the beginning stages of dating, its when the other shoe drops that you see trheir true selves. Thats usually when the crazy comes out.

The 2nd key is to speed up the crazy
The 1st key is not even think about LTR's when you've only been with this chick for 3 months.

WIA

[WestIndianArchie]

(10-04-2016 10:40 AM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

After every LTR I learn the same thing; I don't enjoy the extended company of any particular woman.

This is something I think we all need to work on.

We have to appreciate a chick for what she brings to the table, not necessarily for what we want to eat. I think that means really trying to dig into her personality and to actually find whatever uniqueness she's desperately trying to hide.

Overall, when a chick is looking for a LTR, she has a shopper's mentality. She's trying to get more for less.

Compared to her you're
- taller
- stronger
- faster
- smarter
- richer
- more popular
- more interesting
- more friends
- more unreactive
- funnier

ETC - everything that she wants. And she gets this for the low price of Pussy.99.

At the front end, you're swapping ALL of your stuff for the 1 thing that she has - her sex.

But sex with the same chick, no matter how hot she is, eventually gets old.

Now you're spending time with a chick that you're not dying to fuck that is
- shorter
- slower
- slower to pick up on things
- less popular
- less interesting
- less friends
- more emotionally reactive
- not funny

Around last time this year, I'm with a chick. Dick sucking skills better than Mary Magdalene. And she's an educated working professional who's traveled...but if my dick wasn't in her mouth - I realized despite interesting work/education - there wasn't anything there.

She was leeching all of my value.

When I talk, her mind is firing on all cylinders. When she talks, I start thinking about whether I should really start following baseball.

I remember the last time we hung out, and I say to her, "You're not really doing anything for me. I talk, you listen." And there were clear implications to that. How does a chick go from snoozeville to interesting?

It got me to thinking about past short and long term relationships with chicks that didn't offer much.

To keep my mind into them, they'd basically stir up drama, get me to fix shit, etc.

What this does on a psychological level is that it gets me to INVEST IN THEM. When you invest, you stick around, that's game 101.

With that in mind, I still think that chicks have these sides of themselves that they've learned to hide because it's not socially acceptable to be free. Women are really great conformists (men more so).

This chick I was banging was an anachronism in some respects in that she rejected some of that "grrl power" stuff, and was somewhat more traditional with the gender roles - but I can get that elsewhere.

WIA

[AboveAverageJoe]

When you are older you will realize the right thing to have done was to remain emotianally distant while banging her with a condom and sleeping with any other chicks you feel like. You chose to blow your own spot up, you could have just kept using her for sex. Once a woman cheats on you. you shouldn't ascribe any value to her other than easy pussy, but you don't have to end the easy sex. Next time, act like you don't care, and you shouldn't, and just start using a condom and cut off any contact thats not sexual in nature.

[Turnus]

It's great that you got out of this LTR earlier rather than later. It also looks like you've reflected a bit on this and have used it as a learning experience. It now means, that you'll be armed wit this experience and allow you to go into your next LTR (if you so choose) with a different lens.

[John_Galt]

There are a lot of negative posts in this thread. AWALT, true, but I do want to add one thing:

I've been fortunate enough to have bedded a couple of intellectual girls. Very intelligent, capable of discussing deep topics and philosophy. Made deep emotional connections...etc. The problem? Both of them had deep-seeded emotional issues/psychological problems. I'm not certain that all philosophically minded women are batshit crazy, but I will say the "good girl" virgins are far less likely to be capable of discussing deeper subjects than the sluts.

As to what I've learned from LTR's, I've found that I have VERY strong intuition. When I sense something is wrong (for example, if I suspect she's seeing another man on the side) I'm right. I don't need evidence. Once I sense something, it's time to eject.

Not all men have a keen sense of intuition, but if you've consistently found yourself sensing something only to later find proof of it, I highly recommend listening to your gut, especially when it comes to a woman you've invested yourself in emotionally.

[King of Monkeys]

(10-04-2016 08:05 PM)John_Galt Wrote:  

Not all men have a keen sense of intuition, but if you've consistently found yourself sensing something only to later find proof of it, I highly recommend listening to your gut, especially when it comes to a woman you've invested yourself in emotionally.

I think a big part of the bolded section is that there are plenty of men who get the gut feeling that something's wrong, but they choose to ignore it. Although they can tell something is off, it's easier to rationalize away the growing doubt in their gut. It means accepting the fact someone they trusted and invited into their lives screwed them over, and they choose to ignore this omen in hopes they can return to their relationship as if nothing happened.

[John_Galt]

(10-04-2016 10:20 PM)King of Monkeys Wrote:  

(10-04-2016 08:05 PM)John_Galt Wrote:  

Not all men have a keen sense of intuition, but if you've consistently found yourself sensing something only to later find proof of it, I highly recommend listening to your gut, especially when it comes to a woman you've invested yourself in emotionally.

I think a big part of the bolded section is that there are plenty of men who get the gut feeling that something's wrong, but they choose to ignore it. Although they can tell something is off, it's easier to rationalize away the growing doubt in their gut. It means accepting the fact someone they trusted and invited into their lives screwed them over, and they choose to ignore this omen in hopes they can return to their relationship as if nothing happened.

Yes, precisely. It's the admittance, to yourself, that the person you've invested in is not trustworthy that is one of the hardest pills to swallow.

It goes along with red flags: When you notice it, just eject. It's far easier to survive an ejection from an aircraft than it is to survive the crash landing....

Unfortunately for most of us, it's our emotional instinct to stay until the Titanic finally sinks.

[XPQ22]

Quote:

She was willing to change! After she felt in love with me. She stopped posting selfies, she started contact again with her father, she started going into the psychologist to help her insecurities,etc...She did everything I wanted to. She became the perfect woman.

This is probably the biggest red flag of all (along with the probable alcoholism.) You don't want a girl who only attempts to change their fucked-up lifestyle when they think that a relationship is on the line, not even for a plate. Attempting to become a "perfect woman" and adapt all the characteristics they think their guy wants is called "mirroring" in psychology, and it is a fucked-up lady red flag. A chick who feels free to disagree with you on things, doesn't try to mold herself totally to your interests, and has her own (reasonable) goals and interests independent of yours is an honest chick. Trust no bitch who is too accommodating.

Quote:

Sex was out of this world.

Not necessarily an indicator of anything. I mean, frankly, if you choose to see a girl regularly should it be anything but? Why would one LTR a girl who was a mediocre lay?

You really don't have to put up with a whacko to get the kinky sex. Plenty of perfectly "normal" girls are into that shit, too.

The rest of the supposed "red flags" aside from that one, the drinking, and hanging with gay guys regularly honestly don't sound so terrible to me; if you excluded every Western woman who used a dating app, wasn't over an old ex, or had a guy cheat on her you'd be excluding 95% of women in the pool. 4 boyfriends and 12 sex partners? Jeez, for a 20-something college-educated American chick that's practically a virgin.

Quote:

After a big party that we where hosting to one of his friends. She got drunk, she flirt with another guy in front of me. Told everybody the kinky stuff we where doing in bed, posted a selfie showing cleavage and after I just stand up and leave, she did not contact me after 4 days saying i was making a big deal of it.

Not terribly becoming behavior, a girl who is rolling with me should know enough not to get sloppy drunk when we're together in public, but in a different woman whom your gut wasn't giving you such bad feelings about an incident like that might have simply been worthy of a "soft next", not a complete relationship abort program. Sounds like you used it as a pretext to do what your gut was telling you, and that's not necessarily bad. That gut instinct is often pretty reliable.

[John_Galt]

(10-05-2016 12:25 AM)XPQ22 Wrote:  

The rest of the supposed "red flags" aside from that one, the drinking, and hanging with gay guys regularly honestly don't sound so terrible to me; if you excluded every Western woman who used a dating app, wasn't over an old ex, or had a guy cheat on her you'd be excluding 95% of women in the pool. 4 boyfriends and 12 sex partners? Jeez, for a 20-something college-educated American chick that's practically a virgin.

I'm going to have to voice my disagreement with you on this. A man should have high standards, and a woman with 12 partners, no matter the age, is a slut. Period.

For a girl in a harem, sure, no problem, but for an LTR, the OP was correct in determining this girl was not worthwhile for that. And yes, 95% of women in the pool are not suitable for LTR's. At least not for me. My standards are high, and become higher and higher with every relationship. I think that's a good thing. We're men. We don't have an expiration date.

That's the good thing about being wine instead of milk.

[XPQ22]

(10-05-2016 12:39 AM)John_Galt Wrote:  

And yes, 95% of women in the pool are not suitable for LTR's. At least not for me. My standards are high, and become higher and higher with every relationship. I think that's a good thing. We're men. We don't have an expiration date.

Sure, you're perfectly allowed to want whatever you want, it's a (mostly) free country.

The way I feel about is that aside from the issues of children and divorce, monogamous LTRs are essentially de-facto marriage, with most of the issues that come along with it that we know about.

So the question becomes: why do it. There are a fair amount of women who will sign on to be a long-term plate if you manage it right, likely more than that top 5% of 9s who are also "good girls" and haven't been banged by more than three guys in their life or whatever the cutoff is. For my part, I'd prefer to spend the majority of my time banging chicks, not unicorn-hunting. And for most of us mere mortals, yeah, it is unicorn hunting, don't kid yourself. I see lots of threads in the game section like "Where do I find good girls" and not "Yeah I met this 9 at the church social who was 26 and had only dated one guy before me for 7 years, it was easy, she's been my perfect girlfriend for a year now."

I'm fairly certain that Kanye could have just about any woman he wants, but I think it's also fairly certain that Kim has had more than a couple partners in her life.

Ever-escalating standards just sounds like an ego thing. I primarily like fucking girls because it's fun, and not hunting around till the Thursday before forever to find one that's just absolutely just right because I feel that's what I deserve.

There's a saying in engineering: better is the enemy of good.

[John_Galt]

I think we agree on the root of the matter, and are merely quarreling over semantics my friend.

Unicorn hunting is a good term. But while we're out hunting for this mystical beast, surely we'd be forgiven if we bag a bear, a deer, or even a squirrel once and a while. After all, a man has to eat.

But I don't go after 9s for LTR's. There is a law of diminishing returns in all things, and women are no exception. No matter how attractive the woman is, there's some man in the world who's tired of having sex with her. 9's get old just like 7s, but there's a lot more maintenance to do with them. For LTR's, high 7's, low 8s are best, at least, that's been my experience. For banging, obviously I want the women to be as hot as I can get.

The point I'm trying to make is this: If you do decide to commit to one woman, she should be worthy of your time, energy, and investment. If she is not worthy of this, why are you committing to just her? When we use the term "LTR" I think most of us can safely assume we mean a monogamous relationship with one woman. So what are we debating? Whether or not we should even consider an LTR in the first place? I agree---for many men, a harem is preferable, due to the low quality of modern women. But if a man is inclined for something with more depth and meaning, he would be wise to screen and have high standards for the woman he chooses.

I welcome your thoughts on the matter.

[preppy]

An LTR in the US is difficult, any woman who is at least a 5 and not overweight (not necessarily in shape, just simply not overweight) has at least 100 orbiters at any given time. Whether it's tinder, facebook, instagram, regular text, kik, etc. They are there. You simply have to assume there's other men involved until proven otherwis.

I've seen women openly post on facebook "need some help with bills this month", within minutes there are men posting telling her to message them privately.

On tinder, it's become normal to see women requesting starbucks/chipotle/help with moving. There's simply such an overabundance of men in the US.

[Khan]

Now that you guys have mentioned unicorns, almost two months ago I've broken up with my first LTR. She was friendly, cute, family-oriented, conservative, well-mannered and I was her first. Definitely marriage material.

After 5 months I couldn't stand her anymore.

She was too shy, very emotional/sensitive and easy to insult, and subtly very immature - although you couldn't tell it at first, when I got to know her deeper I realized that her perception of the outside world was on the level of a 5-year old. I suspect the reason for that was her family background - she had 20+ cousins, and they all spent unusually high amounts of time socializing with each other instead of with their peers from school/college etc. This insulated them from the influence of the outside world (very unhealthy in my opinion), and made some of them almost somewhat autistic. For example, her brothers had almost no friends. One of her cousins, who is also her best friend, was eerily freaky.

To cut things short, the most important thing I've learned from this experience is also a worrying one - if a girl is marriage material, that doesn't mean she has a healthy character. Quite the contrary, it could very well be that the majority of marriage-worthy girls that are left on the market are at least partially fucked up.

[Dalaran1991]

(10-05-2016 06:15 AM)Khan Wrote:  

To cut things short, the most important thing I've learned from this experience is also a worrying one - if a girl is marriage material, that doesn't mean she has a healthy character. Quite the contrary, it could very well be that the majority of marriage-worthy girls that are left on the market are at least partially fucked up.

This kinda sums up how I feel about this discussion.

You complain about not being able to find LTR material, and once you actually do find one you realize she is not what you want?

Did our ancestors had the perfect marriage? No. Did they still have children and raise great people? Yes.

What I learned from old couples I know who live happy is this: for a LTR to last, both of you need to be willing to fix things when they are broken. And more often than not you are the one not wanting to make things work, even with the girl does.

Which I can understand. But we also need to understand you will never find the "perfect" girl. You can find the one with the perfect foundation, but it is your job to build your girl and LTR into what you want.

Too often here I see the attitude "my dick and presence are all that should be invested". This is no better than the cunt who thinks her pussy entitles her to everything.

Its true that LTR is harder to maintain these days, but if you can make it work it is very rewarding.

Quote:

As men we dont have an expiration date.

Yes we do, it just comes later and doesn't hit us as hard as it does women. Just because Hugh Hefner made it doesnt mean all of us will. Im 25 and already I can no longer do the things I did at 18.

[John_Galt]

Dalaran,

Of course a 60 year old isn't going to do what a 25 year old will, but most men will agree, we hit our stride in our 40's. Women hit their stride in their late teens. That's my point.